Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

61653 HTAFC · 12 Mar 2018

Rail Blues said:
Converting what is essentially commuter stock with a layout to match and lacking in A/C into something suited to running regional expresses would be prohibitively and needlessly expensive.

Air-conditioning yes, but replacing seats with fewer but nicer ones? Not prohibitively expensive, indeed no more expensive than replacing like for like:- which is happening with almost every unit Northern operate.

Though it's all academic with the A/C issue and the plans that are already in place.

I do still think the 323 interior would be more suited to Leeds-Skipton though. The whole point of going 6-car is to boost capacity, so why use lower-density units (331s) to do so?

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Anvil1984 · 12 Mar 2018

4-SUB 4732 said:
Did I not see some reference to more services towards Chester le Street and Durham? If so, one would argue an hourly service from Durham (trains reversing at Tursdale) to Morpeth (trains reversing in the Down Loop) would be a good use of something like a 323. Otherwise it's true to say you may as well not bother.

But I personally look at the use of 323s and say "Better than a 319" and they are. Some services on Northern Connect or whatever they call it could use them. The Macclesfield service I think goes to Southport - send it to Preston / Blackpool instead? Easy enough (roughly) to do.

The added Newcastle to Durham Northern services are part of the planned Northern Connect route from Carlisle to Middlesbrough (potentially via Stillington) in order to give passengers a quicker Tyne - Tees service. Morpeth to Durham will probably be serviced by the TPE Edinburgh to Manchester via ECML service from 2019

Grannyjoans · 12 Mar 2018

Somewhere on here there is a post from a Northern driver claiming it took a 319 14 miles to achieve 100mph of a non-stop Manchester to Crewe training run...

Yes but some Drivers for some reason Drive 319's slowly. e.g. Leaving it in Power Notch 1 up to 10mph. Not using Full Power until they hit 60mph. When I first signed 319's I was told a lot of different things by different people about what power notch to use in relation to the speed.

In contrast, some other Drivers go into PN 2 as soon as the unit gets moving and use full power from 15mph no problems.

Yes they are not fast but I can't believe they take 14 miles on such a flat route to reach full speed.
Apart from the very slow initial acceleration from 0 to 30mph (which is comparable to a 142!), from 30mph onwards they are not too bad. From 90mph to 100mph they struggle. The 319's can get 100mph between Wigan and Exuton Balshaw Lane both directions.

Geeves · 12 Mar 2018

Sorry Grannyjones but from your posts it sounds at best that the trains you have driven are on trainsim only. Are you really a driver or just a day dreamer?

pemma · 13 Mar 2018

Geeves said:
Sorry Grannyjones but from your posts it sounds at best that the trains you have driven are on trainsim only. Are you really a driver or just a day dreamer?

Even as someone who can't drive a train I read Grannyjones' post yesterday and thought it sounded dubious but I didn't want to respond to it before Northern crews had been given a chance to comment. If the drivers have been instructed to use a specific approach to protect the units from failures then surely the ones who follow that approach should not be having their driving technique criticised.

507 001 · 13 Mar 2018

The platform edge on the Up at Patricroft has been ‘shaved’. Suspect this is something to do with gauge clearance for 323s?

YorkshireBear · 13 Mar 2018

There are a lot of platform gauging works going on for the CAF and TPE units too with seperate project teams working on them. So I think much more likely for that.

Grannyjoans · 13 Mar 2018

Sorry Grannyjones but from your posts it sounds at best that the trains you have driven are on trainsim only. Are you really a driver or just a day dreamer?

Geeves + JCollins

Both? I daydream about doing something better than driving 319's Pacers and Sprinters

Experienced Driver (7 years + )
Had 3 different Driving jobs
Current position is within Arriva Rail North and very experienced with driving 319's, though they are very easy to drive, apart from the wheelslide you can get on poor railhead.
Microsoft Train Sim ? Not bothered with that since 15 years ago. The only Train Sim I've been on since then is the TPE 185 Sim at Ardwick.

I've got better things to do with my time than argue with you that you don't think I'm a Driver, if you want proof I'll tell you what trains I'm working on any week and you can arrange to meet me and I'll tell you that I'm username "Grannyjones" on Railforums. I operate out of Man Vic, Picc, Lime St, Wigan, Preston, etc regularly. Or if you've rather me prove it some other way then let me know.

I don't think there exists anyone sad enough to come on a message forum and pretend they drive boring commuter trains when they don't ? :lol:

Or is there ?

Wivenswold · 13 Mar 2018

The Ham said:
Only those not in use by SWR; or are we looking at a new build of 442 for the above?

If so, it's about time we got some more. As we've got too many places that need 442's for all the ideas we have for them.

I've just heard a rumour that GA's Mark 3 coaches will be converted into 442s so they can be loco hauled on the North Wales line. Those voices are back....nurse?

Geeves · 13 Mar 2018

442s are the answer to nation's problems any line, anywhere an any time!

Fair enough Grannyjones. I don't really have the time for that either seeing as I am all over the NW everyday. I'll be watching your posts to see where you slip up next.

.

In answer your last point, yes they do.

Grannyjoans · 13 Mar 2018

Fair enough Grannyjones. I don't really have the time for that either seeing as I am all over the NW everyday. I'll be watching your posts to see where you slip up nex

I don't think there exists anyone sad enough to come on a message forum and pretend they drive boring mundane commuter trains when they don't ? :lol:

Or has this really happened before ?

If someone's going to come on here and pretend what job they do, surely it's got to be something more glamorous/impressive/exciting than that!

Geeves · 13 Mar 2018

It happens more often than you think an they do get caught out!

Crossforth · 14 Mar 2018

I drive 442s backwards with two class 91s top n rail through the highlands on my weekends off... or have I been listening to he same voices as Wivenwold?

Getting back on track... I take it there is still no solid evidence?

driver_m · 14 Mar 2018

Would have thought it would be a very bad idea to be pretend to be driver on here, as you could easily be exposed just by someone asking a question about the roads you sign or the traction you sign which would only be known to staff.

notlob.divad · 14 Mar 2018

Back to the 323s, It looks like the anticipated test/training diagram 5Z50 etc from Allerton is again not running.

Starmill · 14 Mar 2018

Crossforth said:
Getting back on track... I take it there is still no solid evidence?

No. Also, given how long WMT are still going to need their 323s for (Bromsgrove services are likely to begin in May), I'm not sure we will know for a while yet!

50032 · 14 Mar 2018

notlob.divad said:
Back to the 323s, It looks like the anticipated test/training diagram 5Z50 etc from Allerton is again not running.

I gather driver training is taking place this week but with a Manchester Instructor, so any driving will have to be done on Manchester routes. I'm sure those paths will be used in the next few weeks though.

geoffk · 14 Mar 2018

Class 170101 said:
Is it possible the Class 323s may be moved to Northern to replace the remaining Class 319s to enable them to go for conversion to Class 769s for Wales and Borders franchise?

With electrification now a non starter thanks to Chris Grayling and the PRM deadline coming up fast is it possible that the Class 319 conversion is the only game in town?

Chris Grayling won't be Transport Secretary for ever!

61653 HTAFC · 14 Mar 2018

geoffk said:
Chris Grayling won't be Transport Secretary for ever!

You say that, but I'm sure NHS staff have been saying the same about Jeremy Hunt for most of the time he's been in position!

rebmcr · 14 Mar 2018

geoffk said:
Chris Grayling won't be Transport Secretary for ever!

61653 HTAFC said:
You say that, but I'm sure NHS staff have been saying the same about Jeremy Hunt for most of the time he's been in position!

Both positions are viewed by politicians as stepping stones, and staying put is a punishment.

As long as he keeps doing badly, he'll stay.

61653 HTAFC · 14 Mar 2018

rebmcr said:
Both positions are viewed by politicians as stepping stones, and staying put is a punishment.

As long as he keeps doing badly, he'll stay.

I don't doubt it... But if that doesn't make you angry then you're not paying attention!

js1000 · 19 Mar 2018

I really struggle to see 323s going to waste. It's not unforseeable could go for another 20 years and last 50 years in service. They've proven themselves to excellent units. Well-built, roomy with the extruded body and very nippy.

The same cannot be said of the 319s which are dire and hated by staff and passengers alike. I hope the 769 trial is a success for both Northern, which needs more diesels, and Porterbrook as it means they can keep all the 323s going and convert a fair amount of the 319s to bimodal. Kill two birds with one stone.

td97 · 23 Mar 2018

I don't see why Northern will need any extra 3-car units, given that they will have 31x 3-car 331 units next year, which is almost double the number of 3-car EMU's they have now (17x 323's).
Even if the 323 is a better train than the 319, Northern have to consider capacity on their routes, so it seems unlikely that there will be a reduction from 4-car 319 to 3-car 323, especially as they seem to be pressing ahead with improvements like new seat covers etc. on the 319 fleet.

pemma · 23 Mar 2018

td97 said:
it seems unlikely that there will be a reduction from 4-car 319 to 3-car 323

The difference in capacity between a 319 and a 323 is less significant than the difference between a 2 car Pacer and a 2 car Sprinter, yet Northern switch Pacer and Sprinter allocations every time the diagrams get revised.

td97 · 23 Mar 2018

jcollins said:
The difference in capacity between a 319 and a 323 is less significant than the difference between a 2 car Pacer and a 2 car Sprinter, yet Northern switch Pacer and Sprinter allocations every time the diagrams get revised.

That's a good point actually. I worked out

The reduction in length from 319 to 323 would only be 9m
- Equating to loss of half a 319 carriage, or 11% less length
Whereas the 150 to 142 is also 9m less
- Losing half of a 150 carriage, or 22% reduction.
That's before you consider the differences in seating density.

But why would Northern be pushing ahead with 319 'refreshments' if the 323s were to stay?

pemma · 23 Mar 2018

td97 said:
That's a good point actually. I worked out

The reduction in length from 319 to 323 would only be 9m

Equating to loss of half a 319 carriage, or 11% less length

Whereas the 150 to 142 is also 9m less

Losing half of a 150 carriage, or 22% reduction.

That's before you consider the differences in seating density.

Or the fact the 319 has an extra gangway connection due to being 4 cars not 3.

The 150 vs 142 isn't quite as bad as you suggest as the 150s have the areas for the guards to do the door duties outside both the cabs and the saloons.

But why would Northern be pushing ahead with 319 'refreshments' if the 323s were to stay?

How many 319s have had work done to the seating? A repaint isn't the costly part of the refurbishment while the ROSCO pays for the PRM mods like CIS, the new toilets etc.

td97 · 23 Mar 2018

jcollins said:
How many 319s have had work done to the seating? A repaint isn't the costly part of the refurbishment while the ROSCO pays for the PRM mods like CIS, the new toilets etc.

I've heard of perhaps 2-3 recently (I think 319366 was the most recent)

FordFocus · 23 Mar 2018

Grannyjones said:
Yes but some Drivers for some reason Drive 319's slowly. e.g. Leaving it in Power Notch 1 up to 10mph. Not using Full Power until they hit 60mph. When I first signed 319's I was told a lot of different things by different people about what power notch to use in relation to the speed.

In contrast, some other Drivers go into PN 2 as soon as the unit gets moving and use full power from 15mph no problems.

Yes they are not fast but I can't believe they take 14 miles on such a flat route to reach full speed.
Apart from the very slow initial acceleration from 0 to 30mph (which is comparable to a 142!), from 30mph onwards they are not too bad. From 90mph to 100mph they struggle. The 319's can get 100mph between Wigan and Exuton Balshaw Lane both directions.

Sounds the power notching issue is from drivers who have driven 14x and 15x their entire careers with 3-5-7 notches been used. Haven't yet got used to an EMU.

Starmill · 23 Mar 2018

td97 said:
But why would Northern be pushing ahead with 319 'refreshments'

Thus far, it's only very basic work that they are paying for, across the whole fleet.

WatcherZero · 23 Mar 2018

Grannyjones said:
Yes but some Drivers for some reason Drive 319's slowly. e.g. Leaving it in Power Notch 1 up to 10mph. Not using Full Power until they hit 60mph. When I first signed 319's I was told a lot of different things by different people about what power notch to use in relation to the speed.

With only one motored carriage they tend to get wheelslip if you apply too much power before friction of the other wheels has been overcome.

Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

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