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Should employers be required by law to provide a sick room and subsidised waited on restaurant?
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AlterEgo
Veteran Member
No. Obviously.
As a mobile worker impossible. I’m out on the road solo in a van.
My previous employer provided both. The sick room was abused by hangover sufferers going for a lie down.
The subsidised restaurant knocked up some good stuff. £2.50 a meal.
Bolognese, chilli, pasta bakes, roast meat baguettes, fish pie, etc
Although it may have been zero profit rather than subsidised.
My previous employer provided both. The sick room was abused by hangover sufferers going for a lie down.
The subsidised restaurant knocked up some good stuff. £2.50 a meal.
Bolognese, chilli, pasta bakes, roast meat baguettes, fish pie, etc
Although it may have been zero profit rather than subsidised.
In some places I've worked there was barely enough space for a kettle, never mind a "sick room" or subsidised restaurant!
I've worked in a couple of fairly large-ish supermarkets where there was a proper canteen (and at subsidised prices), but I'd imagine there were sufficient people using the facilities for it to make a small profit. Back in those days they could get away with giving you a 45 minute break for lunch instead of an hour if there were catering facilities on the premises (Shops Act, if I remember correctly). Clearly, if you have a large number of employees and the business is located some distance away from any cafes, restaurants (or Gregg's if that is your preference), it makes sense to provide some kind of catering on the premises, but for smaller businesses it simply isn't feasible.
However, there was one smaller branch of Safeway I worked in that had a very old-school store manager (everyone else insisted in calling him Mr .... when the company had long abandoned such formalities) who was waited on when he went to the "canteen" for his lunch, while the rest of us relied on stuff that could be eaten cold, or heated up in the microwave.
I've worked in a couple of fairly large-ish supermarkets where there was a proper canteen (and at subsidised prices), but I'd imagine there were sufficient people using the facilities for it to make a small profit. Back in those days they could get away with giving you a 45 minute break for lunch instead of an hour if there were catering facilities on the premises (Shops Act, if I remember correctly). Clearly, if you have a large number of employees and the business is located some distance away from any cafes, restaurants (or Gregg's if that is your preference), it makes sense to provide some kind of catering on the premises, but for smaller businesses it simply isn't feasible.
However, there was one smaller branch of Safeway I worked in that had a very old-school store manager (everyone else insisted in calling him Mr .... when the company had long abandoned such formalities) who was waited on when he went to the "canteen" for his lunch, while the rest of us relied on stuff that could be eaten cold, or heated up in the microwave.
175mph
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Did he ever invite a person at random to join him?
Oh no - we weren't of high enough status for that. Not that anyone would have wanted to anyway!
175mph
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I would have done, a different person each day of the week!
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
Having had a look at that other discussion I do not understand how you were inspired by it. And since you think the idea ridiculous why bother with this thread, let alone a poll? Every chance this thread will be as pointless as the one to which you provided a link.
Why a waited on restaurant?
Surely a good old fashioned canteen serving up sausages, chips and beans and giant mugs of strong tea would suffice ?
(I work in a City centre office surrounded by yuppie outlets and fantasise about such an establishment).
Surely a good old fashioned canteen serving up sausages, chips and beans and giant mugs of strong tea would suffice ?
(I work in a City centre office surrounded by yuppie outlets and fantasise about such an establishment).
DarloRich
Veteran Member
Is, of course, the correct answer. Close thread.
( this is a very odd thread. Very odd indeed)
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Very odd thread, particularly as the DS link is two years old.
If you are sick then go home. If you are an adult then sort your own food out. I'm not saying a canteen facility isn't nice, but to have to have it provided by law is too far.
If you are sick then go home. If you are an adult then sort your own food out. I'm not saying a canteen facility isn't nice, but to have to have it provided by law is too far.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
This is a fair point, though I don't really see a case for subsidising it, just run it at cost.
Site in the middle of London: no point whatsoever, there are loads of food purchase opportunities.
Large site in the middle of nowhere with nothing nearby: probably sensible, if for no other reason than to reduce unnecessary car journeys to whatever is available.
And the rest somewhere in between.
But then when it comes to it...if your employer doesn't provide one and it's important to you that they do, time to look for a new job perhaps?
Agreed. I don't think anyone would disagree that these would be welcome, but as I said above, to make them a lawful requirement is a step too far.
goblinuser
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I agree with this for larger companies. For example, having to provide a canteen in a large office building, bus depot, etc.
However for small businesses it clearly is impractical.
However for small businesses it clearly is impractical.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Why should it be mandatory by law?
dcsprior
Member
If an employer pays an employee £5, this actually costs the employer £5.80 by the time the employer's NI contributions are included.
This £5 gross earnings becomes £3.40 net earnings.
The £3.40 spend in the work canteen is £2.83 net of VAT.
So by moving this money from the employer to the employee and back to the till in the employer's canteen over half is lost to various forms of taxation. Phrasing this differently, if the employer provides free food, they'll provide a benefit worth twice to the employee what it costs the employer.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
It's a nice idea and all but too impractical and for small businesses in particular too costly to implement. It's definitely not worth making mandatory by law.
Dai Corner
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Conversely, a former employer of mine with offices in central Bristol provided a free canteen. When we relocated to the edge of the city with nowhere else to buy food they started charging (though the parking was then free which kind of made up for it).
Bromley boy
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Bizarre suggestions indeed (and a bizarre thread).
Subsidised waited on restaurant.
The only place I’ve ever worked which had a waited on dining room was a rather archaic law firm with a partners’ dining room only the chosen few were allowed into. I’m not sure if it was subsidised but since annual earnings per equity partner ranged from £1m -£2.5m+ I doubt they cared (and they would have been the ones subsidising it, in any case). Archaic, arcane, divisive and a bit weird.
If I’d been invited into it I might take a different view, of course.
Sick room.
Also a strange idea. We had one of these when I was at school, complete with school nurse.
In the adult world if you’re ill you shouldn’t be at work. If you need a sick room/nurse you should be in hospital.
Subsidised waited on restaurant.
The only place I’ve ever worked which had a waited on dining room was a rather archaic law firm with a partners’ dining room only the chosen few were allowed into. I’m not sure if it was subsidised but since annual earnings per equity partner ranged from £1m -£2.5m+ I doubt they cared (and they would have been the ones subsidising it, in any case). Archaic, arcane, divisive and a bit weird.
If I’d been invited into it I might take a different view, of course.
Sick room.
Also a strange idea. We had one of these when I was at school, complete with school nurse.
In the adult world if you’re ill you shouldn’t be at work. If you need a sick room/nurse you should be in hospital.
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43021HST
Established Member
You have my sympathies, there's a distinct lack of Gregg's in central London. Although Yo Sushi's and Pret a Manger seem to grow like weeds round there.
I believe it should be mandatory by law that we have a cheap bakery on every high street.
I'm tempted to create a tube style map of every cheap bakery, greasy spoon, fish and chip, Pie and Mash shop within Zone 1.
Hmm I could just go for a sausage, bean and cheese pasty!
Busaholic
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The former provision of eating facilities by employers mainly falls into three categories imo;-
1) The paternalistic approach by such as Marks and Spencer, so prices were low and their employees thought more of them, would be less likely to change job and be more productive
2) A strong trade union presence amongst the workforce made this part of a bargaining position
3) Subsidised restaurants/canteens could both earn tax rebates for the providers and be provided free of income tax for the employees: likewise, Luncheon Vouchers to a certain level could be provided where a canteen wasn't provided tax free. This arrangement certainly lasted into the 1980s: I can remember the last employer I got them from.
1) The paternalistic approach by such as Marks and Spencer, so prices were low and their employees thought more of them, would be less likely to change job and be more productive
2) A strong trade union presence amongst the workforce made this part of a bargaining position
3) Subsidised restaurants/canteens could both earn tax rebates for the providers and be provided free of income tax for the employees: likewise, Luncheon Vouchers to a certain level could be provided where a canteen wasn't provided tax free. This arrangement certainly lasted into the 1980s: I can remember the last employer I got them from.
Short answer is no in both cases. However, depending on the various circumstances, a sick "bay" of some description and canteen type facilities should be considered.
I work in the public sector, in a building with probably 400 staff working on any given weekday. We have an on site nurse, but their primary role is not directly related to staff. It does though, mean a bed of sorts is required. This is available to certain staff in exceptional circumstances eg. Staff continuing to work whilst on fatigue inducing medication such as chemotherapy. It is NOT available to people coming in to work with a hangover.
As regards a canteen. In our previous building (with similar staff numbers), we had a (self service) staff restaurant open for breakfast and lunch and also to prepare refreshments for both internal meetings and guests. I understand that the facility cost the employer £20,000 (net of revenue) per annum and was closed down for this reason in about 2006. The employer's total budget at the time was about £100-150 million. The canteen was well patronised, the food was excellent and varied with a rolling menu (making it easy to order in advance) giving a choice of two main meals on any given day. The food was cooked "conventionally" (no microwaves) and included plenty of vegetables and fruit. Being on site, meant your lunch time (minimum 30 minutes) was spent eating lunch (!) and chatting with colleagues often from other departments.
We now have a choice of Greggs or "ready meals" from one of three Supermarkets about 5 minutes walk away from the office. So, clearly not healthy. Bearing in mind that some of us (admittedly a minority) are on fixed 30 minute breaks, we are supposed to go and purchase lunch, bring it back, probably queue to microwave it in a "new" cooker with the door taped up and then hope the "breakout" area is not full have people having meetings all in that 30 minute period.
Now, excuse me for taking a holistic view, but I'd like to bet that the "new" arrangement costs FAR more in sickness/lost productivity than having a canteen.
So, yes, if your work location has a staff of say, more than 50, I would seriously argue that a facility for providing healthy food options would benefit all in the long run.
I work in the public sector, in a building with probably 400 staff working on any given weekday. We have an on site nurse, but their primary role is not directly related to staff. It does though, mean a bed of sorts is required. This is available to certain staff in exceptional circumstances eg. Staff continuing to work whilst on fatigue inducing medication such as chemotherapy. It is NOT available to people coming in to work with a hangover.
As regards a canteen. In our previous building (with similar staff numbers), we had a (self service) staff restaurant open for breakfast and lunch and also to prepare refreshments for both internal meetings and guests. I understand that the facility cost the employer £20,000 (net of revenue) per annum and was closed down for this reason in about 2006. The employer's total budget at the time was about £100-150 million. The canteen was well patronised, the food was excellent and varied with a rolling menu (making it easy to order in advance) giving a choice of two main meals on any given day. The food was cooked "conventionally" (no microwaves) and included plenty of vegetables and fruit. Being on site, meant your lunch time (minimum 30 minutes) was spent eating lunch (!) and chatting with colleagues often from other departments.
We now have a choice of Greggs or "ready meals" from one of three Supermarkets about 5 minutes walk away from the office. So, clearly not healthy. Bearing in mind that some of us (admittedly a minority) are on fixed 30 minute breaks, we are supposed to go and purchase lunch, bring it back, probably queue to microwave it in a "new" cooker with the door taped up and then hope the "breakout" area is not full have people having meetings all in that 30 minute period.
Now, excuse me for taking a holistic view, but I'd like to bet that the "new" arrangement costs FAR more in sickness/lost productivity than having a canteen.
So, yes, if your work location has a staff of say, more than 50, I would seriously argue that a facility for providing healthy food options would benefit all in the long run.
goblinuser
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This is the key point, in places I've worked lunch has always been a problem and it ends up with me choosing a more expensive and unhealthy option than something simple freshly cooked in a canteen.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
Sorry but you're doing it wrong! The best way to have a healthy and economic meal in the middle of the day is to bring it from home. That way you control the ingredients and can certainly pay far less than "eating out". All that may be needed sometimes is the use of a refrigerator through the morning. As for your designated break area being used for meetings that really should not be allowed at those times that people on fixed break times may need it. I wonder if you are the "victim" of a career-long habit of not having to worry about providing for yourself.
And all of that is massive over-provision compared to what traincrew have available. For them it's always a case of bring it with you or "eat out", the latter not always being a viable option. And some of the break areas leave a little to be desired too.
Raul_Duke
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I’ve often thought how ironic it is that even though we’re told there’s more money sloshing around, and the rich are undeniably getting richer, little things in life seem to be getting steadily more grim in the name of ‘efficiency.’
A lot of places would have had subsided canteens even a few years ago, now almost all cut back to save a few pounds.
The same way councils can’t even afford to have a few flowers in a tub in the town centres anymore.
Admittedly the canteen thing may tie in with a change from heavy industry/manufacturing when there was a set meal time for most of the workforce to a service based economy hot desking in a tech startup in a converted mill.
A lot of places would have had subsided canteens even a few years ago, now almost all cut back to save a few pounds.
The same way councils can’t even afford to have a few flowers in a tub in the town centres anymore.
Admittedly the canteen thing may tie in with a change from heavy industry/manufacturing when there was a set meal time for most of the workforce to a service based economy hot desking in a tech startup in a converted mill.
PermitToTravel
Established Member
This thread is silly, but sensible discussion could be extracted from it:
Is there a case for forbidding making a profit from staff canteens? At cost is entirely fair enough, as is turning any profit back into staff facilities; but what about the cases where a canteen is provided amd serves expensive food because all alternatives are too distant?
It'll seem silly to some, but is similar in many ways to charging staff for their uniforms or work equipment. Should, eg, Deliveroo and UberEats be able to sell jackets and insulated bags for a massive profit? An UberEats bag is £120 in some cities...
Sebastian O
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A ‘sick room’ is already in law providing the risk assessment of provision of first aid necessitates it (moderate and high risk work environments etc.)
First Aid at Work Regulations 1981
Employers should provide a suitable first-aid room or rooms where the assessment of first-aid needs identifies this as necessary. The first-aid room(s) should contain essential first-aid facilities and equipment, be easily accessible to stretchers and be clearly signposted and identified. If possible, the room(s) should be reserved exclusively for giving first aid.
I used to run a theme park first aid department and I can absolutely assure you that anyone who came in to ‘have a lay down’ after a heavy night (we weren’t stupid) was very much thrown out quickly once I summoned their manager to speak to them.
First Aid at Work Regulations 1981
Employers should provide a suitable first-aid room or rooms where the assessment of first-aid needs identifies this as necessary. The first-aid room(s) should contain essential first-aid facilities and equipment, be easily accessible to stretchers and be clearly signposted and identified. If possible, the room(s) should be reserved exclusively for giving first aid.
I used to run a theme park first aid department and I can absolutely assure you that anyone who came in to ‘have a lay down’ after a heavy night (we weren’t stupid) was very much thrown out quickly once I summoned their manager to speak to them.
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