Train company branding: "Trains" vs "Railways"

37 418 · 17 Mar 2018

Ianigsy said:
It'd be interesting to know whether the same distinction between trains and the railway exists in Gaelic, given that the brand is bilingual.

Trains would be trèanaichean, Rail(way) is rèile, although the older version is rathad-iarainn (compare with Irish Iarnród). You would only use the latter when referring to the railway as a whole, but the former would be used when referring to the tracks or as a service. :smile:

RailUK Forums

frediculous · 17 Mar 2018

tbtc said:
If anything, it makes it easier for TOCs to distinguish themselves from predecessors, since there are only so many geographical names you can come up with for a TOC providing a service in a particular area of the country.

A good example would be the franchise for trains in the South East (or the South West):

South East Trains
South Eastern Trains
South East Railway
South Eastern Railway
Southeast
Southeastern

That's about it - and some of these are so close to each other it would not make sense to replace one with another. I guess one could append "London &" to the front to add further differentiation.

dorsetdesiro · 17 Mar 2018

frediculous said:
A good example would be the franchise for trains in the South East (or the South West):

South East Trains
South Eastern Trains
South East Railway
South Eastern Railway
Southeast
Southeastern

That's about it - and some of these are so close to each other it would not make sense to replace one with another. I guess one could append "London &" to the front to add further differentiation.

How about "Network South East" as a TOC name, different to the usual Railway/Trains? It was sort of a TOC name in BR before privatisation.

Probably too confusing for Joe Public due to "Network Rail" prompting complaints about infrastructure problems to the beleaguered TOC!

Rail South East is another one...

pdeaves · 17 Mar 2018

George166 said:
South Western Railway aren't actually responsible for railway infrastructure in the south west.

<cough>Island Line</cough> :smile:

(Yes, I know it's only a minor part of a much larger network!).

Ianigsy · 17 Mar 2018

tbtc said:
"Passengers", whilst traditional, makes us sound more like luggage than people - I know there's the "passage to India" sense of the word, but "passengers" has a connotation of inconvenience to me.

These days "passenger" also has a negative connotation -in the workplace at least- meaning somebody who turns up but doesn't do their share of the work.

A Challenge · 17 Mar 2018

All trains in the south west are operated by GWR and XC.

edit: SWR run to Exeter, so them as well actually, despite my point

Calthrop · 17 Mar 2018

Ianigsy said:
These days "passenger" also has a negative connotation -in the workplace at least- meaning somebody who turns up but doesn't do their share of the work.

Its associations in ornithological circles are not too positive, either -- we know what happened to the passenger pigeon...

dorsetdesiro · 17 Mar 2018

It isn't always easy to agree on a suitable word for something as there will always be alternatives.

In regards to passenger/customer/rail user/traveller etc.

"Rider" may sometimes be heard on American public transport, is this a good alternative? I know we Brits can get prickly about American vocabulary!

Horse riding can spring to mind also it also can mean doing the dirty deed in Ireland...

xotGD · 17 Mar 2018

dorsetdesiro said:
It isn't always easy to agree on a suitable word for something as there will always be alternatives.

In regards to passenger/customer/rail user/traveller etc.

"Rider" may sometimes be heard on American public transport, is this a good alternative? I know we Brits can get prickly about American vocabulary!

Horse riding can spring to mind also it also can mean doing the dirty deed in Ireland...

We don't need an alternative to passenger. Certainly not Rider.

Being on a train filled with Fellow Travellers sounds like something from a John le Carre novel.

6Gman · 17 Mar 2018

adrock1976 said:
Regarding Railway/train stations, this has got me thinking about the broad use of stations to describe various things, such as fire/police, etc.

A bus station is where a bus stops, and a railway/train station is where a train stops. What happens at a work station?

Don't buses stop at bus stops?

6Gman · 17 Mar 2018

Mojo said:
Historically, a railway station is a place the railway industry is based (“stationed”); the Stationmaster would have had a much bigger operational role in the running of the service than they do now, with a team of staff including porters and booking clerks even at smaller stations, I don’t think it’s anything to do with a train stopping there. Hence also the terms fire station (where the fire service are stationed), police station, etc. This is the reason I believe the term “train station” makes no sense in a British context, as we have a “railway industry” and not a “train industry” or “railroad industry” as they say in the USA.

This.

Chris M · 17 Mar 2018

pdeaves said:
<cough>Island Line</cough>

But the Island Line is on the east coast of an island in south east England. Nothing south west about it!

DarloRich said:
I suppose to be ultra geeky and pedant like none of the TOC's run a railway except perhaps, almost, kind of, maybe, Scotrail. The TOC's run a train service but I doubt it matters

The Island Line part of SWR definitely run a railway.

al78 said:
To be accurate, the road isn't dangerous, it is drivers of motor vehicles who are careless or reckless that are dangerous.

The road shouldn't be dangerous, but it often is - potholes being the most prominent example.

dorsetdesiro · 17 Mar 2018

Chris M said:
The Island Line part of SWR definitely run a railway.

That's interesting about SWR running Island Line's infrastructure, I thought this is overseen by Network Rail as over on the mainland?

The Island Line seems to be a special case, I've never known a TOC can be responsible for the railway other than Network Rail perhaps other than NI Railways/Translink in Northern Ireland? Anybody welcome to correct me on this!

TT-ONR-NRN · 17 Mar 2018

I feel like “Railway” has a more traditional approach. Whereas “Trains” is nice and modern.

Same with flights.

“Airways” old and traditional.
“Airlines” new and modern.

pdeaves · 17 Mar 2018

dorsetdesiro said:
That's interesting about SWR running Island Line's infrastructure, I thought this is overseen by Network Rail as over on the mainland?

The Island Line seems to be a special case, I've never known a TOC can be responsible for the railway other than Network Rail perhaps other than NI Railways/Translink in Northern Ireland? Anybody welcome to correct me on this!

Island Line is the responsibility of the TOC. They happen to contract Network Rail to do some (all?) of the maintenance but could in principle get anyone else to do it, or do it 'in house'. Signalling staff are Island Line (SWR) employees.

I believe (but may be wrong on the detail) that the line Bristol relief line is leased in its entirety by GWR and operated and maintained by the TOC.

DavidGrain · 18 Mar 2018

Chiltern Railways over their long franchise have been responsible for a lot of infrastructure work.

dorsetdesiro · 18 Mar 2018

Thanks pdeaves & DavidGrain.

As with Chiltern & possibly GWR, there are probably more TOCs overseeing infrastructure elsewhere in the country that don't come under NR.

dorsetdesiro · 18 Mar 2018

TT-ONR-NRN said:
I feel like “Railway” has a more traditional approach. Whereas “Trains” is nice and modern.

Same with flights.

“Airways” old and traditional.
“Airlines” new and modern.

+1 agreed.

Also someone already pointed out, whenever there is a franchise changeover then the new TOC may use "Railway" if the previous had "Trains" or similar.

As "Railway" seems classy/traditional, this works with GWR particularly with their current image that it seems a little peculiar when applied non-traditionally like SWR, LNR and WMR also not forgetting WMR's unusual "Double Decker chocolate" livery!

route:oxford · 18 Mar 2018

dorsetdesiro said:
Yes, you're right, I forgot about the Scottish Government! "Rail Scotland" could be another one.

Have you never looked at the side of a Scotrail Train? "Rail Scotland" is exactly what is says! (Rèile na h-Alba).

Bletchleyite · 18 Mar 2018

Masboroughlad said:
Why do some franchises call themselves 'Trains' (South Western Trains) and others 'Railway' (South Western Railway). Same service, stock, area etc.

Are both right? Are both wrong? Potentially confusing for the general public?

It seems to be generational to some extent. Original franchises wanted to get away from "British Rail" and were in a new generation of trains but not infrastructure companies. Nowadays the trend seems to be to hark back to the olde worlde, which First have done particularly well with the GWR branding, though SWR less well by using a classic sounding name but a modern branding.

"X Trains" with a red dot on the I has become a Stagecoach signature brand so that has tended to stick with them.

dorsetdesiro · 18 Mar 2018

route:oxford said:
Have you never looked at the side of a Scotrail Train? "Rail Scotland" is exactly what is says! (Rèile na h-Alba).

Very true, "xxx Scotland" in the English language may sound clinically dull like Police Scotland so "ScotRail" would look catchier as a brand.

dorsetdesiro · 18 Mar 2018

Bletchleyite said:
It seems to be generational to some extent. Original franchises wanted to get away from "British Rail" and were in a new generation of trains but not infrastructure companies. Nowadays the trend seems to be to hark back to the olde worlde, which First have done particularly well with the GWR branding, though SWR less well by using a classic sounding name but a modern branding.

I am still so annoyed with SWR, as my local TOC, for having a dreary monochromatic theme which LNR and WMR have more interesting & unconventional designs.

The sight of grey SWR trains passing through the rolling green Dorset countryside on a blue sky day would be pretty depressing though much worse on overcast days especially for hard pressed Waterloo commuters!

What the heck FirstGroup were thinking of after the success of the GWR brand?

Bletchleyite said:
"X Trains" with a red dot on the I has become a Stagecoach signature brand so that has tended to stick with them.

Also "Virgin Trains" which Stagecoach also have involvement with. This also applied to Arriva when they had Northern in the past and ATW is a "living relic" from the past which is due to disappear soon.

sjoh · 19 Mar 2018

BanburyBlue said:
we always have a discussion in the office as to whether you go to the train station or railway station?

do you go to the bus station or the road station?

First to admit, however, that my tendancy is to call it a train station.

61653 HTAFC · 19 Mar 2018

My personal feeling is that "xx Trains" sounds juvenile or cheap, whereas "xx Railway" or even just "xx Rail" sounds classier. But as the second post on this thread succinctly pointed out, it doesn't actually matter- it's just something to muse about when one can't sleep!

Regarding stations and taxis, I regularly use minicabs to get to "Dewsbury station" and about 50% of the time the driver will ask if I mean the bus station or the train station. I'm always tempted to reply "the RAILWAY station, please" but doing so would be pointless and rude, even if it is technically correct!

Western Lord · 19 Mar 2018

TT-ONR-NRN said:
I feel like “Railway” has a more traditional approach. Whereas “Trains” is nice and modern.

Same with flights.

“Airways” old and traditional.
“Airlines” new and modern.

"Airlines" new and modern? The term has been around as long as "Airways", mainly in the USA. In any case, an airline is a company which operates aircraft for hire and reward, and an airway is what the aircraft fly along. Of course, in the USA the term "airline" was also applied to railways, indicating a line which was the shortest route between two points. There was even a company called Seaboard Air Line, which merged with Atlantic Coast Line to become Seaboard Coast Line and is now subsumed into CSX Transportation.

xotGD · 19 Mar 2018

61653 HTAFC said:
My personal feeling is that "xx Trains" sounds juvenile or cheap, whereas "xx Railway" or even just "xx Rail" sounds classier. But as the second post on this thread succinctly pointed out, it doesn't actually matter- it's just something to muse about when one can't sleep!

Regarding stations and taxis, I regularly use minicabs to get to "Dewsbury station" and about 50% of the time the driver will ask if I mean the bus station or the train station. I'm always tempted to reply "the RAILWAY station, please" but doing so would be pointless and rude, even if it is technically correct!

Minicab. Now there's a word I've never understood. Is there a maxicab, from which it is a shrunken version?

I always say taxi, whether Hackney Carriage or Private Hire.

61653 HTAFC · 19 Mar 2018

xotGD said:
Minicab. Now there's a word I've never understood. Is there a maxicab, from which it is a shrunken version?

I always say taxi, whether Hackney Carriage or Private Hire.

I'd never really considered it, it was just the name I've always used for a private hire taxi (as opposed to a Hackney Carriage)... but now that you mention it, it is a bit odd.

Though at least one of the drivers for my local firm actually does drive a Mini (One of the mutant 4-door versions) so it does work in his case!

6Gman · 19 Mar 2018

61653 HTAFC said:
I'd never really considered it, it was just the name I've always used for a private hire taxi (as opposed to a Hackney Carriage)... but now that you mention it, it is a bit odd.

Though at least one of the drivers for my local firm actually does drive a Mini (One of the mutant 4-door versions) so it does work in his case!

The name "minicab" I believe originated because the first private hire vehicles were smaller than the traditional hackney carriage black cabs.

Think 1960s Escort v 1960 Black Taxi.

61653 HTAFC · 19 Mar 2018

6Gman said:
The name "minicab" I believe originated because the first private hire vehicles were smaller than the traditional hackney carriage black cabs.

Think 1960s Escort v 1960 Black Taxi.

I was thinking something along those lines: 3/4 seats as opposed to 5 in the classic London Taxi.

6Gman · 19 Mar 2018

sjoh said:
do you go to the bus station or the road station?

I go to the bus station. To access the services of the bus company/ies.

I go to the railway station. To access the services of the railway company/ies.

Train company branding: "Trains" vs "Railways"

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