Claim of locking of doors on a stranded EMU

farleigh · 19 Mar 2018

Llanigraham said:
Then you would be VERY wrong!

Apologies - should have read "...has a little understanding..."

RailUK Forums

AlterEgo · 19 Mar 2018

Wychwood93 said:
What has failed to be mentioned is the reason why Control made the request. I take into consideration the other, quite valid, points by the way. If nobody is aware of this then........ Perhaps the BTP/Police were aware that there happened to be somebody on the train that needed to remain on there???

You cannot lock passengers on a mainline train with no emergency egress just so the police can arrest someone.

hexagon789 · 19 Mar 2018

AlterEgo said:
You cannot lock passengers on a mainline train with no emergency egress just so the police can arrest someone.

I would certainly hope not, a head-lock is a better idea!

Bromley boy · 19 Mar 2018

Llanigraham said:
For someone who purports to be interested in railways, your lack of historic knowledge is surprising!
It's 3 of them!

If it’s grim up north, God only knows how bad it must be in Wales

.

I’ve never been (although I’m planning on flying myself to Wales this summer, in a light aircraft, should be a barrel of laughs!), it’s one for the future for sure.

Llanigraham · 19 Mar 2018

farleigh said:
Apologies - should have read "...has a little understanding..."

And again you would be wrong.

Flying Snail · 20 Mar 2018

Llanigraham said:
Then you would be VERY wrong!

For someone who purports to be interested in railways, your lack of historic knowledge is surprising!
It's 3 of them!

Historic knowledge is a wonderful thing.

Such as knowing that a train with locked doors was a major contribution to one of the worst rail disasters in the UK, 80 deaths and over 200 injuries in Armagh in 1889.

I know much regulation was written following that incident including block working and continuous train brakes being made compulsory for passenger railways. I am not sure if locking passenger cars was also banned by legislation at that time also but the practice was heavily criticised and considered unacceptable.

I see no reason why the practice should be considered any less acceptable today and I would take issue with being locked on any railway carriage, heritage or not.

ANorthernGuard · 20 Mar 2018

To be fair this is the 1st I have heard of this. There would have been at least a rumour if it was true and I haven't heard anything about it.

whhistle · 20 Mar 2018

So much speculation over something that doesn't really have much fact or truth in it.

LowLevel · 20 Mar 2018

Flying Snail said:
Historic knowledge is a wonderful thing.

Such as knowing that a train with locked doors was a major contribution to one of the worst rail disasters in the UK, 80 deaths and over 200 injuries in Armagh in 1889.

I know much regulation was written following that incident including block working and continuous train brakes being made compulsory for passenger railways. I am not sure if locking passenger cars was also banned by legislation at that time also but the practice was heavily criticised and considered unacceptable.

I see no reason why the practice should be considered any less acceptable today and I would take issue with being locked on any railway carriage, heritage or not.

Their method of operation is old enough to have required approval by the railway inspectorate and is only for outward opening doors on a number of heritage vehicles.

The reason being the gauge is so tight on some narrow gauge lines that a door coming open (which is much more likely than a large scale fire) would very likely be destroyed in short order in collision with rock faces and so on with attendant risks of a) a doorless compartment and b) bits of wood and glass flying everywhere.

The Ffestiniog and Welsh highland now standardise on inward opening doors and consequently there's usually only a small number of these carriages per train (with the exception of gala day heritage workings), and you're free to travel in other vehicles if you're uncomfortable.

The coaches in question tend to be fitted with large drop down windows, the train crews are well briefed and aware of the risks of operation and the 'lock ups' as they're known are always a priority. The trains carry a guard and usually numerous catering crew who can assist if required.

driver_m · 20 Mar 2018

Llanigraham said:
And again you would be wrong.

Llanigraham, aren't you a signalman? Would have thought that questioning the rule knowledge of any rail staff is putting yourself on dodgy ground, but a group of people who are known for being hot on the rules, then it is a particularly bad idea to question them!! Farleigh. I'd stop digging lol!

farleigh · 20 Mar 2018

Fair play chaps and apologies.
I think Llanigraham has a very good understanding of operations on the Vale of Rheidol, Talyllyn or Ffestiniog.

Llanigraham · 20 Mar 2018

driver_m said:
Llanigraham, aren't you a signalman? Would have thought that questioning the rule knowledge of any rail staff is putting yourself on dodgy ground, but a group of people who are known for being hot on the rules, then it is a particularly bad idea to question them!! Farleigh. I'd stop digging lol!

Yes I was a signalman, but I am also a volunteer on a local NG railway, and all I am doing is pointing out that on the 3 NG railways I mentioned the approved method of working is to lock all doors on trains.
I am not questioning anyone.
What I am suggesting is that some people on here have made a too generalised statement, should do some research first and should not attempt to disagree or ridicule someone who has experience of other places or systems.

Farleigh, apology accepted.

Flying Snail said:
Historic knowledge is a wonderful thing.
Such as knowing that a train with locked doors was a major contribution to one of the worst rail disasters in the UK, 80 deaths and over 200 injuries in Armagh in 1889.
I know much regulation was written following that incident including block working and continuous train brakes being made compulsory for passenger railways. I am not sure if locking passenger cars was also banned by legislation at that time also but the practice was heavily criticised and considered unacceptable.

I see no reason why the practice should be considered any less acceptable today and I would take issue with being locked on any railway carriage, heritage or not.

Then I suggest you make a formal complaint to the ORR as that is their Approved Method of Working on the 3 railways I have mentioned. I suggest that they are far more qualified to make that decision than you.

43096 · 20 Mar 2018

whhistle said:
So much speculation over something that doesn't really have much fact or truth in it.

What else would you expect!?

driver_m · 20 Mar 2018

Llanigraham said:
Yes I was a signalman, but I am also a volunteer on a local NG railway, and all I am doing is pointing out that on the 3 NG railways I mentioned the approved method of working is to lock all doors on trains.
I am not questioning anyone.
What I am suggesting is that some people on here have made a too generalised statement, should do some research first and should not attempt to disagree or ridicule someone who has experience of other places or systems.

Farleigh, apology accepted.

Then I suggest you make a formal complaint to the ORR as that is their Approved Method of Working on the 3 railways I have mentioned. I suggest that they are far more qualified to make that decision than you.

I know you weren't, I've written that badly. I meant it towards Farleigh.

hexagon789 · 20 Mar 2018

Llanigraham said:
the approved method of working is to lock all doors on trains.

I'm still surprised they don't have an emergency unlocking feature though.

BestWestern · 20 Mar 2018

EM2 said:
Who on earth thought THAT was a sensible piece of design?!

On BR era stock, the apparatus for isolating a door is generally a physical bolt of some type, so the door really is 'locked'. This bolt is separate to the normal door mechanisms, and so not affected by the emergency egress system.

BestWestern · 20 Mar 2018

hexagon789 said:
I'm still surprised they don't have an emergency unlocking feature though.

Do they perhaps have window hammers?

hexagon789 · 20 Mar 2018

BestWestern said:
Do they perhaps have window hammers?

No idea, you would hope they might but if they don't have any form egress then they probably don't have hammers either.

BestWestern · 20 Mar 2018

hexagon789 said:
No idea, you would hope they might but if they don't have any form egress then they probably don't have hammers either.

Well, I thought that perhaps one might explain the other being allowed!

hexagon789 · 20 Mar 2018

BestWestern said:
Well, I thought that perhaps one might explain the other being allowed!

It's a British railway though, nothing ever makes sense! :lol:

(Said with tongue firmly in cheek!)

Llanigraham · 20 Mar 2018

hexagon789 said:
I'm still surprised they don't have an emergency unlocking feature though.

The doors are locked before the train leaves the stations by the Guard walking down the train with a T Key.

And has been said several times, the operating system used on these lines has been approved by the ORR, so I fail to understand why some people are unable to accept that they are happy with it.
Perhaps some of you need to come over here and see just how professionally these lines are run. Hopefully you might all learn something.

hexagon789 · 20 Mar 2018

Llanigraham said:
The doors are locked before the train leaves the stations by the Guard walking down the train with a T Key.

And has been said several times, the operating system used on these lines has been approved by the ORR, so I fail to understand why some people are unable to accept that they are happy with it.
Perhaps some of you need to come over here and see just how professionally these lines are run. Hopefully you might all learn something.

I don't doubt it's approved by the ORR and I'll sure it is professionally run, heritage railways are often more professionally run than the national network in my experience.

It'sjust a little hard to comprehend the practice from a safety perspective is all. You've explained how it works and the reasons behind it, so that's fine, I withdraw my concerns.

godfreycomplex · 20 Mar 2018

Bromley boy said:
Unfortunately it doesn’t work like that.

At my place out version of “control” routinely instructs staff to take actions that would breach the rule book. The staff need to stand up for themselves and refuse to carry out these instructions.

Guess who will get the blame if someone is injured or killed.

Not unusual at my place either.
An entirely different, but equally grave error was made by another member of railway staff on instruction of Control a few years ago. The controller, although not by the letter of the law directly responsible, was given far more serious disciplinary action and, more importantly, thorough training was given to all controllers as to the rules, what the basics of them are, and who has lead responsibility as regards to them (although one can’t train common sense).
Without knowing the full specifics, I would hope something similar would happen here

hexagon789 · 20 Mar 2018

godfreycomplex said:
Without knowing the full specifics, l I would hope something similar would happen here

So, would I

FordFocus · 21 Mar 2018

On stock like 15x, like BestWestern says the door is physically locked and the egress won't override it. I think this is because the sliding doors on 150 are belt driven. There have been cases where the belt has snapped in traffic and the door leafs are free to open. On other stock some door air system valves had a habit of sticking and forcing the door to stay open. The only way to close the door was to isolate the air system, close the door manually and lock it. The lock would physically keep the door locked as there was no air to keep it closed.

Modern trains around the era of Turbostars and Electrostars onwards uses an electric system. Isolating it normally turned the passengers door controls off and shown out of use. The other way is isolating is to turn the electrical power off to it and manually close it as the plug doors would lock into place once firmly shut and inline with the rest of the coach body.

Not 100% sure on the technicalities of it as I never really studied the doors systems to the depth of a fitters knowledge.

notverydeep · 21 Mar 2018

theironroad said:
Sounds like someone in control is only thinking about the immediate situation. I suppose they were hoping to avoid a Lewisham style mass uncontrolled evacuation which would have meant more people to clear off the tracks before service resumed.

I can almost envisage the raib, btp, cps and court transcripts now, all incredulous that this was ordered or was actually done.

On the Lewisham stranding thread, I asked a question whether any of the command chain for incidents within Network Rail / TOC route control functions, perhaps in a senior position, who might perhaps have a job title like "Senior Operating Officer", is empowered to consider and if necessary sign off waivers to elements of the operating rules? However no one commented on the question and given the discussion in this thread so far around rules, it seemed to be a good place to ask again.

I am not seeking to comment on whether the actions reported in this thread would have been appropriate if accurate, but to establish whether there is a formal process for a officially recognised competent person to issue waivers to the National Rail rule book in specific circumstances. Such a process does exist on at least some of the other non-heritage UK rail networks.

godfreycomplex · 21 Mar 2018

notverydeep said:
On the Lewisham stranding thread, I asked a question whether any of the command chain for incidents within Network Rail / TOC route control functions, perhaps in a senior position, who might perhaps have a job title like "Senior Operating Officer", is empowered to consider and if necessary sign off waivers to elements of the operating rules? However no one commented on the question and given the discussion in this thread so far around rules, it seemed to be a good place to ask again.

I am not seeking to comment on whether the actions reported in this thread would have been appropriate if accurate, but to establish whether there is a formal process for a officially recognised competent person to issue waivers to the National Rail rule book in specific circumstances. Such a process does exist on at least some of the other non-heritage UK rail networks.

The rule book is inviolable and the rules within exist for very sound reasons, it can’t be tampered around with just on a whim, no matter what OTT title the tamperer has.
Plus lead responsibility lies with the signaller (or in certain situations the electrical controller) on Network Rail infrastructure and an effective group of signallers and controllers on duty during an incident will work together to find a solution within the rule book, or if one isn’t available, to do the best for the passengers on the train. Unfortunately some quasi-Messianic figure authorising rules violations in such a situation will likely result in injury or death sooner or later

Bletchleyite · 21 Mar 2018

godfreycomplex said:
The rule book is inviolable

I do agree with your principle that manual overrides have a habit of causing people to die (Zs1, anybody?), and the Rule Book has been around long enough that it does manage to cover most situations, but how does that work if it's something the Rule Book doesn't actually deal with?

hexagon789 · 21 Mar 2018

godfreycomplex said:
The rule book is inviolable and the rules within exist for very sound reasons, it can’t be tampered around with just on a whim, no matter what OTT title the tamperer has.
Plus lead responsibility lies with the signaller (or in certain situations the electrical controller) on Network Rail infrastructure and an effective group of signallers and controllers on duty during an incident will work together to find a solution within the rule book, or if one isn’t available, to do the best for the passengers on the train. Unfortunately some quasi-Messianic figure authorising rules violations in such a situation will likely result in injury or death sooner or later

I agree, the rule book should be followed to the letter and drivers and staff should feel confident that if the refuse a request to control to go against a rule that they will not be penalised.

godfreycomplex · 21 Mar 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I do agree with your principle that manual overrides have a habit of causing people to die (Zs1, anybody?), and the Rule Book has been around long enough that it does manage to cover most situations, but how does that work if it's something the Rule Book doesn't actually deal with?

Zs1 indeed....
Mostly come to “a clear understanding” with all involved as to what’s going to happen (and not happen). Should point out that such occurrences dwindle in regularity at each rule book change

Claim of locking of doors on a stranded EMU

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