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Arriva Rail North DOO
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If your guard friends are correct, given DOO is increasingly used worldwide, it would point more to a global conspiracy against their wage levels, rather than specifically a U.K. Tory one.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not just that, but UK DOO is (as with the railways generally) one of the safest implementations in the world. In Germany and Switzerland, for example, it is primarily done using the interlock and small side mirrors for a quick check, not with the kind of high quality CCTV it is in the UK.
Bromley boy
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I wonder what the legal situation is in Germany and Switzerland with regard to health and safety law, prosecution of staff for manslaughter etc. if something goes wrong.
Where's this rumour from? It was long ago quoted on these forums that the previous MD Alex Hynes said Abellio would retain guards because DOO wouldn't be worth implementing in the North. I guess he knew it's down to no previous DOO agreement (unlike Southern) and lack of infrastructure like stations not up to the in cab CCTV standards. £££
DCO is DOO. If a train is capable of been run without a second person onboard it's a Driver Only Operated train as per the rule book. You could have ten RPIs onboard, it's still classed as DOO in the eyes of the RSSB.
Bromley boy
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And which equivalent jobs outside the rail industry carrying similar levels of responsibility might these be?
Where do I start with that? :roll:
1. Alex Hynes was talking about Northern Rail Limited (an Abellio and Serco joint venture) which came to an end in 2006. There was no guarantee he would remain in place beyond that even if Abellio had won the next franchise.
2. Alex Hynes had no problem continuing with the MD role under Arriva Rail North t/a Northern, who had a franchise requirement to implement DCO. He only left because he was headhunted by the Scotrail Alliance.
3. The franchise requirement for DCO was set by DfT and Rail North. It doesn't matter who won the franchise, Govia would have implemented DCO as would Abellio.
4. DfT originally proposed actual driver only services i.e. not even planning to have a second member of staff on board for the purposes of revenue or customer service. The 3 bidders (including Arriva) and Rail North all objected to that, which is how the DCO compromise was achieved.
5. You'll find the RSSB not only use the term DCO, they consider DOO as an alternative name for DCO not the other way around! Evidence- https://www.rssb.co.uk/hot-topics/driver-controlled-operation
Bromley boy
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The rulebook refers to DO trains. There’s no distinction between DOO and DCO from a rulebook perspective, they are the same thing.
It should be remembered there's no evidence that individual Northern routes are less profitable than similar ones operated by other franchises such as GWR, EMT, Northern, Scotrail, ATW etc. What is different is the Northern franchise is a collection of local services over many regions, without having more lucrative regional and Intercity routes to balance out the finances. Franchises like VTEC, VTWC, XC, TPE, LM etc. would all take a financial hit if there were no Northern services connecting with their services.
ANorthernGuard
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According to the Rule Book DCO does not exist DO however does
That map is rather misleading. My TOC is misrepresented and shows DOO in operation at stations where DOO is not in operation.
Javelin services?
kingqueen
Member
I wish I could find some definitive source of services and stations which serve DOO / DCO trains. I've asked RSSB, Network Rail, and RDG (the RSSB say that map was created from data provided by RDG)
kingqueen
Member
There is an interesting comparative exercises to be done to see if there is any statistical difference between the number of services cancelled due to want of a guard pre DOO, and the number of services that run without a second member of staff post DOO. I.e. seeing if Northern go to such lengths as they would have previously done to try to ensure there's a second member of staff.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
One way to ensure this would be for there to be a fine for a train operated without a guard/OBS which is about £10 or so (or a similarly small sum) plus saved operational costs less than that for an outright cancellation.
ANorthernGuard
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This is the latest from the RMT
RMT confirms further two days of strike action on Northern Rail goes ahead next week as company snub talks
RAIL UNION RMT today confirmed that a further two days of strike action on Northern Rail over attacks on the role of the safety-critical guard and the extension of Driver Only Operation in the name of increased profits goes ahead next week as planned as the company continue to snub union calls for meaningful talks.
RMT members have been instructed not to book on for any shifts that commence between:-
• 0001 Hours and 2359 hours on Monday 26th March 2018
• 0001 Hours and 2359 hours on Thursday 29th March 2018
The union has demanded tripartite talks with the company and the DfT aimed at reaching a solution but has received no positive response to that call.
RMT has repeatedly pointed out that the move by German-owned Arriva Rail North to expand Driver Only Operation will mean nearly half a million trains running annually without a safety critical guard on board. The union has also pointed out that there is nothing in Arriva’s franchise agreement that requires them to axe guards from Northern trains and that the decision is wholly theirs alone.
There is nothing at all stopping Arriva from agreeing similar arrangements with the union to agreements that have been reached with train operators in Wales and Scotland that guarantee the retention of safety-critical guards.
RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:
“Every single effort that RMT has made to reach a negotiated settlement with Northern Rail over safe operation and safe staffing has been kicked back in our faces. No one should be in any doubt, this dispute is about putting the safety of the travelling public before the profits of the private train companies.
“It is frankly ludicrous that we have been able to negotiate long-term arrangements in Scotland and Wales that protect the guards and passenger safety but we are being denied the same opportunities with rail companies in England.
“Theresa May and Chris Grayling are happy to stand aside and cheer on overseas rail companies that rip-off the British passenger with eye-watering far increases to subsidise their domestic transport operations while throwing the guards off our trains. If it’s good enough for Wales and Scotland to put safety first then it’s good enough for the rest of the UK.
“RMT remains ready for the talks we have suggested.”
ENDS
RMT confirms further two days of strike action on Northern Rail goes ahead next week as company snub talks
RAIL UNION RMT today confirmed that a further two days of strike action on Northern Rail over attacks on the role of the safety-critical guard and the extension of Driver Only Operation in the name of increased profits goes ahead next week as planned as the company continue to snub union calls for meaningful talks.
RMT members have been instructed not to book on for any shifts that commence between:-
• 0001 Hours and 2359 hours on Monday 26th March 2018
• 0001 Hours and 2359 hours on Thursday 29th March 2018
The union has demanded tripartite talks with the company and the DfT aimed at reaching a solution but has received no positive response to that call.
RMT has repeatedly pointed out that the move by German-owned Arriva Rail North to expand Driver Only Operation will mean nearly half a million trains running annually without a safety critical guard on board. The union has also pointed out that there is nothing in Arriva’s franchise agreement that requires them to axe guards from Northern trains and that the decision is wholly theirs alone.
There is nothing at all stopping Arriva from agreeing similar arrangements with the union to agreements that have been reached with train operators in Wales and Scotland that guarantee the retention of safety-critical guards.
RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:
“Every single effort that RMT has made to reach a negotiated settlement with Northern Rail over safe operation and safe staffing has been kicked back in our faces. No one should be in any doubt, this dispute is about putting the safety of the travelling public before the profits of the private train companies.
“It is frankly ludicrous that we have been able to negotiate long-term arrangements in Scotland and Wales that protect the guards and passenger safety but we are being denied the same opportunities with rail companies in England.
“Theresa May and Chris Grayling are happy to stand aside and cheer on overseas rail companies that rip-off the British passenger with eye-watering far increases to subsidise their domestic transport operations while throwing the guards off our trains. If it’s good enough for Wales and Scotland to put safety first then it’s good enough for the rest of the UK.
“RMT remains ready for the talks we have suggested.”
ENDS
So the RMT are now willing to accept a second member of staff who is trained as guard but who don't do the door and dispatch duties? If not Arriva can't come to a solution which meets both the franchise spec and the RMT's demands. It's obvious they know that hence the reference to wanting DfT to be present at the talks but if they want DfT present then why not also board members from Rail North who also signed off the franchise agreement?
It was mentioned on another forum that the RMT claimed they had found a redacted clause in the franchise spec that allowed Northern to keep guards on board but it turned out to nothing more than a mention of a second member of franchise staff on board services where the driver is in charge of doors and dispatch - something we've all known for 2 years!
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Robertj21a
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Oh dear, yet another appalling piece of rubbish from the RMT. Will they never learn ?
Why do they need to include 'German owned' ?
What specifically are these 'attacks' ?
If it's truly a safety issue then TOC profits are just a distraction.
How can any Union *Demand* Tripartite talks ?
Because foreign companies are evil and all use the profits from British franchises to subside their own operations back home. :roll: Notice the constant claims about Merseyrail being Dutch owned when it's 50% British owned or even Govia being foreign when they are 65% British owned.
Incidentally if Arriva and the RMT did agree to a compromise where the second member of staff on board was trained as a guard but the driver would do the doors/dispatch duties under normal circumstances I think that would be the best scenario that could be achieved. It would also be a reasonable compromise as it could allow the guard to do the doors in the event of a fault with the DOO equipment or poor visibility e.g. fog or to assist the driver in an emergency e.g. if passengers have to be removed from the train due to a fire, while at the same time still allowing a more visible on board staff presence under normal circumstances.
Is this strictly true?
Spartacus
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Agreed, after all, despite what the media have put out it's never been about been 'who opens the doors', unlike what they like to keep saying. DOO would have inevitably have resulted in more cancellations during the recent bad weather, or at least failures to stop due to cameras getting covered in snow, as happened elsewhere.
It's to make it sound all evil and foreign and not-British. It's subliminal, quite subtle, but we've all noticed it. Germany, bad, UK good, the RMT in full nationalist mode.
I believe so, as it’s not yet know what safety training this 2nd person will have.
I think the other point that’s being missed is that TOCs want the opportunity to run trains in service with just the driver, which the RMT are unlikely to agree on.
a_c_skinner
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It does seem a good compromise where single manning isn't going to be possible because of unstaffed stations. Single manning under defined and uncommon and unanticipated circumstances.
Either way a year in, more on Southern, there seems no likelihood of this IA bringing the employers' side to the table. It is going nowhere. All it is doing is costing the staff side money. I do wonder if the RMT subliminally prefers the workers' struggle in a dispute to settlement. Their job is to improve their members' lot not worsen it. They have a lot of disputes currently which seems to say they are not good at collective bargaining. I'm not taking sides, I can see arguments for both, but this is going nowhere. I know this seems to blame the staff side more than employers, but I'm not taking that point of view either.
If the RMT won't discuss which services are suitable for DCO/DOO operation with Northern then how do they know how many services would operate without a guard? There's a lot of different ways 50% of passenger mileage can be achieved - one return working between Manchester Airport and Windermere would incur a greater number of passenger miles than 4 return workings between Manchester and Rose Hill Marple.
Eccles1983
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Surely its the companys job to figure out what services are suitable, and then approach the union.
Where as they either havent bothered figuring it out - or already know and wont release them.
Where as they either havent bothered figuring it out - or already know and wont release them.
Regarding the Alex Hynes, he was quoted as saying this...
DOO at Northern was "currently being consulted on, but you would need to invest hugely in either station or train-based infrastructure to implement it", he pointed out. "We have 464 stations, most of which are not staffed and don't have any retail equipment whatsoever, and actually it's far more efficient to have someone on the train with a ticket machine than it is to have someone on the station with a ticket machine".
Rail Business Intelligence August 14, 2014.
Of course his decision to go to Scotrail is entirely his choice but it sounds like he's having another headache up there with rolling stock. Good luck to him.
The DfT own franchise agreement with Arriva Rail North (that you love) states this...
“Driver Controlled Operation”
means operation of a train by a driver alone without the need for a conductor (or any other Franchise Employee);
Source: DfT - PDF Page 32
It's DOO and you know it. If a train can run solely by a driver it's a Driver Only Operated train.
The RSSB in it's technical documents along with TOCs (mine included) call it DOO. https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/standards/RIS-2703-RST Iss 1.pdf if you want more evidence....
To me that sounds like he was saying he didn't think trains with just a driver on board would happen, opposed to driver only operation. As we know Northern are getting new trains and the ROSCOs want DOO equipment fitted to all new trains regardless so that it's future proofed (TPE's new multiple units will have it but First TPE have no plans to use it) so that leaves just the revenue issue and as you just pointed out a driver plus just a CSA is DOO operation.
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