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Northern timetable plan for May 2018

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ASharpe

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This is good news for this station, the generally half hourly service with a few extras in the peaks has been criticised by both passengers and developers of the site (although work seems to have stalled on the housing development side), so this may tempt a few more workers at Kirkstall to use the train as well as possibly tempt a few more drivers off the A65. And using the Bradford services as opposed to the Ilkleys makes more sense from the point of view of a clockface service, although I suspect there might need to be a bit of re-timing going on in the Leeds direction as the Bradford-Leeds is closely followed by a Skipton-Leeds after Shipley.

I'm hoping the new timetable doesn't have the services from Skipton call during the AM peak, there have been days when people have been left behind. And I think more frequent trains will just lead to more passengers so won't solve the capacity problems in the slightest.

The two new stations have been far more successful than was anticipated and some real work is needed to make up for that.
 
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Chester1

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Its a shame that all of the delays are until December rather than until electrification finishes and / or 769s arrive. I would have preferred the paths to be inputted but not used until July or September etc.

I was looking forward to the Chester to Victoria service but when it does get introduced in December I bet that the new W&B franchise holder will alter stock allocations to have all Llandudno to Manchester services run by 2 coach units, certainly whenever Holyhead-Cardiff goes hourly. The choice of Manchester stations and doubled frequency will be useful but I expect the current 2/3 coach DMUs and 4 Mark III set to be replaced with 2 coach 175s and 2 coach 195s, which will only be a modest peak time capacity increase.
 

pemma

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Its a shame that all of the delays are until December rather than until electrification finishes and / or 769s arrive. I would have preferred the paths to be inputted but not used until July or September etc.

Agreed. That's what happened when Virgin introduced the hourly Chester to London service, it didn't commence at the December timetable change but in late January with Virgin using a Voyager to replace the withdrawn ATW services between Chester and Crewe (which were cut from half-hourly to hourly) in the interim.
 

323235

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Some interesting qwerks to the timetables that have been put in for May on the Macclesfield line (obviously i'm not taking this as the final data). One service calls additionally at Heaton Chapel and another is shown to go express from Cheadle Hulme to Manchester Piccadilly.

One would think that Slade Lane is the constrainst here and the desire to send so many services to Manchester Airport.

I know I am probably the only one who thinks this but there needs to be two additional running lines from Slade Lane to Manchester Piccadilly to cope with it all.
 

Philip

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Its a shame that all of the delays are until December rather than until electrification finishes and / or 769s arrive. I would have preferred the paths to be inputted but not used until July or September etc.

I was looking forward to the Chester to Victoria service but when it does get introduced in December I bet that the new W&B franchise holder will alter stock allocations to have all Llandudno to Manchester services run by 2 coach units, certainly whenever Holyhead-Cardiff goes hourly. The choice of Manchester stations and doubled frequency will be useful but I expect the current 2/3 coach DMUs and 4 Mark III set to be replaced with 2 coach 175s and 2 coach 195s, which will only be a modest peak time capacity increase.

If people are regularly being left behind on the platform at Oxford Road and Chester with 2-coach 175s then they will have to do something to improve capacity. There's the issue with maximum dwell times at Oxford Road and Crewe which will probably mean 2-coach units won't be allowed (as booked) at busier times of the day.

I do wonder whether a follow-on order of 2 and 3-coach 195s may be the best long term solution for the North Wales interurban and Manchester Marches services as well, at least if Northern make a success of running many of them doubled up.
 

Starmill

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It's a pity they can't manage a half hourly service to Leeds from Normanton, which has been waiting since before Kirkstall Forge was born.
There should be two journey opportunities per hour. Twice as many as at present!
 

Chester1

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I suspect that Northern knows it will have to increase the number of units away for PRM-TSI upgrade as soon as Manchester to Preston electrification finishes and that the 769s will not be ready earlier than April. Add in pacers going off lease and the choice to not introduce any new services between timetable changes makes sense.

If people are regularly being left behind on the platform at Oxford Road and Chester with 2-coach 175s then they will have to do something to improve capacity. There's the issue with maximum dwell times at Oxford Road and Crewe which will probably mean 2-coach units won't be allowed (as booked) at busier times of the day.

I do wonder whether a follow-on order of 2 and 3-coach 195s may be the best long term solution for the North Wales interurban and Manchester Marches services as well, at least if Northern make a success of running many of them doubled up.

2 coaches would be unsuitable for Manchester to South Wales services but they would be adequate for Llandudno services once the Chester to Leeds service starts. The WG focus on Holyhead-Cardiff and the start of Chester to Leeds service will make it the obvious route to squeeze for extra capacity elsewhere. I think your right about Wales being suited for 195s and the politics of a factory in Wales making new trains for Wales would help but any order is at least 2 years from entering service. Until then the current and next franchise holder will probably try to share the capacity problem with Northern when they have the opportunity to.
 

Lemmy99uk

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They've started to appear again today in the electronic data so looks hopeful, we'll have to see what we end up with.

Cumbrian Coast finally gets a full Sunday service.

It is similar to the one in the original consultation but with a later start. (First train from Carlisle is after 10:00)

The promised later services between Barrow and Carlisle are also going ahead.
 

Bovverboy

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2 coaches would be unsuitable for Manchester to South Wales services

A proportion of Manchester to South Wales services are currently diagrammed for two-car units, but off the top of my head I wouldn't be able to say which ones.
 

pemma

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2 coaches would be unsuitable for Manchester to South Wales services but they would be adequate for Llandudno services once the Chester to Leeds service starts. The WG focus on Holyhead-Cardiff and the start of Chester to Leeds service will make it the obvious route to squeeze for extra capacity elsewhere. I think your right about Wales being suited for 195s and the politics of a factory in Wales making new trains for Wales would help but any order is at least 2 years from entering service. Until then the current and next franchise holder will probably try to share the capacity problem with Northern when they have the opportunity to.

Don't fall in to the same trap Virgin fell in to with XC. Extra services doesn't automatically mean fewer passengers on existing services.
 

pemma

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Letter distributed by Liam Sumpter, regional director at Northern for the central region. I've tried to highlight what's not already been mentioned in this thread.

Further to my previous correspondence last month I wanted to write to you again to provide you with an update on our May 18 timetable introduction.

As you will recall our proposed timetable for May 18 was critically dependent on the successful delivery by Network Rail of the Manchester to Preston Electrification Project, which has been significantly delayed.

Unfortunately, the knock-on effects go way beyond the North-West region, and as a result we have had to make changes elsewhere across the network to reallocate diesel trains to cover the Manchester to Preston route, which would otherwise have been served by electric trains.

To understand the impact of this lack of infrastructure our Train Planning Team have carried out a major review of our proposed May 18 timetable and we are now able to share with you what service improvements we will be able to introduce in May. Disappointingly some of the extra services we had planned for May will now be arriving later. Whilst this is frustrating and means some customers will have to wait longer for improvements, they are improvements worth waiting for.

Calder Valley through Manchester Victoria
• Six trains per hour will still be provided weekdays between Rochdale and Victoria
• Providing new regular journey opportunities:
• Half hourly Rochdale – Manchester Victoria – Bolton – Blackburn, extending hourly to/from Clitheroe
• Hourly Blackburn – Todmorden – Manchester Victoria – Wigan – Southport, with reduced Burnley to Manchester journey time
• Hourly Leeds – Dewsbury – Manchester Victoria – Wigan – Southport

• Two trains per hour Leeds – Bradford – Manchester Victoria

Manchester Victoria to/from Stalybridge
• Two weekday trains per hour between Stalybridge and Manchester Victoria, one extending to/from Wigan via Bolton.
• Daytime services at Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden and Slaithwaite will be provided by TPE.
• Northern will operate some peak services between Manchester Piccadilly and Huddersfield to serve these stations.

Manchester – Preston
• Original plans amended, as services will now be diesel worked rather than electric:
• Half hourly Preston – Manchester Piccadilly via Bolton service will still be provided, one train an hour running Blackpool North – Manchester Piccadilly and one train an hour Preston – Manchester Airport
• Four through Barrow – Manchester Airport and vice versa services will run, along with one Manchester Piccadilly – Windermere and two Windermere – Manchester Piccadilly services
• Hourly Preston – Manchester Victoria service will now run between Buckshaw Parkway and Manchester Victoria
• Hourly Manchester Airport – Blackpool North via Wigan EMU service

Manchester – Wigan – Southport
Six weekday trains per hour will now be provided between Wigan and Manchester:
• Three trains per hour via Atherton, comprising Kirkby – Victoria, Southport – Blackburn and Southport – Leeds (fourth train per hour provided at peak times)
• Two trains per hour via Bolton, comprising Wigan – Victoria – Stalybridge and Wigan – Piccadilly – Alderley Edge
• Hourly non-stop electric service between Manchester Oxford Road and Wigan North Western
• Two morning peak services from Southport – Wigan – Piccadilly – Alderley Edge departing at 06:17 & 07:17
• Two evening peak services from Alderley Edge – Piccadilly – Wigan – Southport departing at 16:49 & 17:49 from Alderley Edge and 17:19 & 18:18 from Manchester Piccadilly

In the evening peak because of the capacity constraints through the Manchester Piccadilly to Salford corridor the 17:19 off Piccadilly (16:49 from Alderley Edge) will call at Deansgate but not Oxford Road; and the 18:18 off Piccadilly (17:49 from Alderley Edge) will call at Oxford Road but not Deansgate.

Chester and Greenbank – Manchester Piccadilly
• An hourly service will continue to be provided between Chester and Manchester Piccadilly, with peak time extra services running between Chester and Stockport, as now
• A two hourly Sunday service will continue to be provided between Chester and Manchester Piccadilly

Stoke and Macclesfield – Manchester Piccadilly
• An hourly service will continue to be provided between Stoke and Manchester Piccadilly, with peak time additional services between Macclesfield and Manchester Piccadilly
• The Sunday service level between Stoke and Manchester will remain as now, with five services in each direction

Buxton and Hazel Grove – Manchester Piccadilly
• Three weekday trains an hour will be provided between Hazel Grove and Manchester:
• Two trains an hour Buxton – Manchester Piccadilly
• Hourly Hazel Grove – Manchester Piccadilly
• Most services will call at Davenport, Woodsmoor and Disley
• Two Sunday trains an hour between Hazel Grove and Manchester:
• Hourly Buxton – Manchester Piccadilly
• Hourly Hazel Grove – Manchester Piccadilly

Sheffield/New Mills Central/Rose Hill – Manchester Piccadilly
• Hourly Sheffield – Manchester Piccadilly service every day
• Two weekday trains per hour New Mills Central – Manchester Piccadilly via Bredbury (one of which is Hope Valley Sheffield service)
• Two weekday trains per hour Rose Hill – Manchester Piccadilly via Hyde

Crewe and Alderley Edge – Manchester Piccadilly
• Hourly Crewe – Manchester Airport – Newton-le-Willows – Liverpool Lime Street service
• Hourly Crewe – Stockport – Manchester Piccadilly service
• Hourly Alderley Edge – Stockport – Manchester Piccadilly – Bolton – Wigan service

Manchester Airport – Manchester Piccadilly
• Four Northern trains per hour between Manchester Airport and Piccadilly/Oxford Road
• Liverpool – Airport – Crewe will call at all stations between Piccadilly and Airport
• Heald Green will have three services per hour in each direction
• Mauldeth Road, Burnage and Gatley will have two services per hour in each direction
• East Didsbury will two Northern services per hour in each direction, with off peak ATW calls continuing

I would like to reassure you that despite this delay to some of our proposed improvements our modernisation plans to transform the train journey experience for our customers by 2020 remains our number one focus. May and December are the key dates for timetable changes on the rail network, and as part of our modernisation programme, we will provide 2000 extra services per week and increase the peak time capacity by 40% by 2020.
To deliver these extra services we have 98 brand-new trains currently being built to replace the Class 142 Pacers that will be retired at the end of 2019, whilst we refurbish the rest of the fleet to deliver a significantly improved customer experience right across the network.

In addition to the above MCRUA has been told morning peak time extras on the Mid-Cheshire line will continue to terminate at Stockport but the unit running the first service will run back to Chester as an additional service. They've also been told they'll be a reduction in capacity on some services - 4 car workings on Saturday becoming much rarer and the c.15.00 Chester to Manchester being operated by a 2 car 142 instead of a 4 car 150, something the chairman has raised concerns about as that is likely to mean passengers get left behind due to the train being too full.
 

yorksrob

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There should be two journey opportunities per hour. Twice as many as at present!

This is true to an extent with the additional Huddersfield, which will be a useful addition. Nevertheless, the main destination is Leeds, which could do with being half-hourly.
 

janb

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Have we got any similar 'letters list' for the Yorkshire area?

Not as exhaustive as the Manchester one but,

Northern is introducing improved services to make travelling to and from Leeds more convenient than ever before.

From 20 May Northern will begin operating additional services to and from Lancaster and Carlisle on weekdays and Sundays, significantly increasing the capacity between the city and popular routes into Lancashire and Cumbria.

Customers travelling between Leeds and Knottingley/Pontefract will benefit from two trains each hour, whilst there will also be a new half hourly service calling at Kirkstall Forge.

Northern is also planning hourly extensions to Southport from Leeds via Dewsbury and Brighouse, opening up further commuting and leisure possibilities for customers on extremely popular routes.

The enhanced services form part of Northern’s May timetable change, which is paving the way for future improvements and getting the network ready for the arrival of Northern’s brand new and fully refurbished trains.

Paul Barnfield, Northern’s Regional Director, said: “The May 2018 timetable change is the next step for us in providing more and better services for our customers and we are looking forward to delivering these enhancements.”

Unfortunately, due to the knock on effects of delays in the delivery of the Manchester to Preston electrification, it has been necessary to postpone some of the improvements Northern had hoped to deliver.

Paul added: “Our proposed timetable for May 18 was dependent on the successful delivery by Network Rail of the Manchester to Preston electrification project, which has been significantly delayed. This means that some of the extra services we had originally planned for May, will now be arriving later than we had hoped.

“The delay to some of our service improvements will not, however, delay our overall modernisation plans. By 2020 we will provide 2,000 extra services each week across the Northern network, will have introduced 98 brand new trains, have refurbished the rest of the fleet and removed all Pacers from the line. We are absolutely committed to transforming the journey experience for our customers.”

Northern’s May 2018 service improvements are on the following routes:
 Leeds – Settle/Carlisle
 Leeds – Morecambe
 York – Selby
 Leeds – Wakefield - Knottingley
 Hull – York
 Kirkstall Forge
 Some Calder Valley services speeded up through Rochdale
 

pemma

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I'm certainly very glad that the Little North Western enhancements are going ahead :)

What do you mean? A lot of the North West list are replacements for soon to be withdrawn TPE services, temporary changes due to Bolton wiring not being ready on time, or existing services that are being re-routed or joined to another service.
 

yorksrob

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What do you mean? A lot of the North West list are replacements for soon to be withdrawn TPE services, temporary changes due to Bolton wiring not being ready on time, or existing services that are being re-routed or joined to another service.

I mean "The Little North Western", as in the route from Leeds to Lancaster, which I use quite often.
 

yorksrob

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Ah OK. I was wondering whether it was supposed to be some kind of reference to changes at Wigan North Western.

Ah no, that's on the "Big" North Western !(although I will probably find timetable improvements in the Wigan area quite useful when they materialise).
 

Starmill

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This is true to an extent with the additional Huddersfield, which will be a useful addition. Nevertheless, the main destination is Leeds, which could do with being half-hourly.
No, as in there will be two journey opportunities per hour to Leeds.
 

Starmill

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The train from Huddersfield. It will connect at Castleford with the train from Knottingley to Leeds.
 

yorksrob

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The train from Huddersfield. It will connect at Castleford with the train from Knottingley to Leeds.

That's interesting. If it's on the half hour to the direct service, I will end up using it. That said, the Huddersfield service might be one which is postponed !
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I mean "The Little North Western", as in the route from Leeds to Lancaster, which I use quite often.

Strictly, the "Little North Western" (North Western Railway) ran from Skipton to Lancaster via Wennington and the Lune valley (with a branch to Ingleton).
Later merged into the Midland Railway, just before the building of the Settle and Carlisle.
The Wennington-Carnforth line was Furness and Midland Joint.
With the closure of the direct Wennington-Lancaster route, we are left with the hybrid route via Carnforth.
It's an interesting and scenic line, if rather slow.
It's also surprising it has remained double track west of Clapham Jn, considering the level of traffic.
 

yorksrob

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Strictly, the "Little North Western" (North Western Railway) ran from Skipton to Lancaster via Wennington and the Lune valley (with a branch to Ingleton).
Later merged into the Midland Railway, just before the building of the Settle and Carlisle.
The Wennington-Carnforth line was Furness and Midland Joint.
With the closure of the direct Wennington-Lancaster route, we are left with the hybrid route via Carnforth.
It's an interesting and scenic line, if rather slow.
It's also surprising it has remained double track west of Clapham Jn, considering the level of traffic.

This is true ! My calling that corridor "The Little North Western" is a simplification, although I feel justified in calling it that as Skipton - Wennington comprises the lions share of the old Little North Western (and the current day route).

The route is interesting and scenic, if a little slow. However it will be a lot more useful with later departures.
 

Bevan Price

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2 coaches would be unsuitable for Manchester to South Wales services but they would be adequate for Llandudno services once the Chester to Leeds service starts. The WG focus on Holyhead-Cardiff and the start of Chester to Leeds service will make it the obvious route to squeeze for extra capacity elsewhere. I think your right about Wales being suited for 195s and the politics of a factory in Wales making new trains for Wales would help but any order is at least 2 years from entering service. Until then the current and next franchise holder will probably try to share the capacity problem with Northern when they have the opportunity to.

I disagree about 2 coaches being adequate for all the Manchester - North Wales services. At busy periods, including parts of summer, they get good loads west of Chester. And outside peak hours, the Northern services will omit stations between Warrington & Chester.

And don't forget if they put 2 coach 195s on the Leeds - Chester services, they have only about 125 seats - fewer than a 156 or 158.
 

ASharpe

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 Leeds – Settle/Carlisle
 Leeds – Morecambe

Hopefully the new services will be additional DMUs departing just after a EMU. If there is a gap in the service they will get used by shorter distance passengers and I don't think there are long enough DMUs available to replace a 4 car unit.
 

xotGD

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Hopefully the new services will be additional DMUs departing just after a EMU. If there is a gap in the service they will get used by shorter distance passengers and I don't think there are long enough DMUs available to replace a 4 car unit.
Conversely, the gap between the 17.56 Skipton and the following Carlisle is being increased, so more local,passengers will fill up the Carlisle.
 

Deerfold

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Hopefully the new services will be additional DMUs departing just after a EMU. If there is a gap in the service they will get used by shorter distance passengers and I don't think there are long enough DMUs available to replace a 4 car unit.

If these times remain the same and there's no changes to the current local services, they will mostly leave just before a local.

From Leeds to Carlisle:

05:19
07:47
09:19
11:20
13:20
15:20
17:19
18:19

From Leeds to Lancaster:

07:19
08:19
10:20
12:20
14:20
17:50
19:18
 
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