Failed Unit
Established Member
But a nice cut in services for new Southgate and Oakliegh Park from 6tph down to 4tph. Be interesting seeing GTR explain that one.
At least they can stand in comfort on the 700s.
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Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes
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But a nice cut in services for new Southgate and Oakliegh Park from 6tph down to 4tph. Be interesting seeing GTR explain that one.
At least they can stand in comfort on the 700s.
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R
RailUK Forums
I'm sure the stats say otherwise, but Oakleigh Park seems to be just as busy as New Barnet in the mornings.
Thanks for posting that,
I notice they have a “timing type” section,denoting what train type&length will be used,e.g 1x7001.
Downthelane
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Some intetesting outcomes.
In theory I can travel from City Thameslink to Hatfield in around 45 minutes with a change at Finsbury Park to a Moorgate service.
Today the same journey takes 60 minutes based on wait time and the inflexibility of the xx:52 departure.
Moreover Hatfield get a huge increase in morning stops with the semi fasts at reasonable times and a change to the 08:38 at Finsbury Park would get me to City around 15 minutes faster than today.
Moreover the return of the xx:06 and 36 in peak means that the 'fasts' won't be in such demand as many often sit and wait for the 52/22 departure as the 28/58 semi fast is too close to the fast departure.
So at face value if it all works then this looks better than expected.
Cutting out KGX makes the huge difference I hoped it would and it will hopefully get even better when 24TPH is possible.
In theory I can travel from City Thameslink to Hatfield in around 45 minutes with a change at Finsbury Park to a Moorgate service.
Today the same journey takes 60 minutes based on wait time and the inflexibility of the xx:52 departure.
Moreover Hatfield get a huge increase in morning stops with the semi fasts at reasonable times and a change to the 08:38 at Finsbury Park would get me to City around 15 minutes faster than today.
Moreover the return of the xx:06 and 36 in peak means that the 'fasts' won't be in such demand as many often sit and wait for the 52/22 departure as the 28/58 semi fast is too close to the fast departure.
So at face value if it all works then this looks better than expected.
Cutting out KGX makes the huge difference I hoped it would and it will hopefully get even better when 24TPH is possible.
Failed Unit
Established Member
To be honest I would have waited for the 1728 rather than go for the 1722 today. But it the 1728 is a 4 Car, so take the option with more space. As the trains to / kings cross are about the same time hopefully the load will spread.
Unfortunately until the services go through the core from WGC I have nothing positive about this timetable. Just hope that one day they will go through the core.
Unfortunately until the services go through the core from WGC I have nothing positive about this timetable. Just hope that one day they will go through the core.
Downthelane
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Doesn't your journey end/originate from Farringdon? If so if going to and from WGC this timetable saves you 12-15 minutes if you go via Finsbury Park.
Not sure I would bother for a 313 but with the 717 then that surely is better if you get home earlier?
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Failed Unit
Established Member
I will try the connection in bad weather, but probably will continue walking from Kings Cross.
Looking again however Finsbury Park will be a very useful place if the trains / station can take the extra people. At the moment the cross from platform 3 to 1 or 2 isn’t slick.
The other thing is that will be a big win is if they can keep to time. Although in theory my journey is slower, currently we are always late following 313s. So the time lost with the extra stops may actually make the service reliable. We shall see as the Welwyn North situation is very risky to performance.
Looking again however Finsbury Park will be a very useful place if the trains / station can take the extra people. At the moment the cross from platform 3 to 1 or 2 isn’t slick.
The other thing is that will be a big win is if they can keep to time. Although in theory my journey is slower, currently we are always late following 313s. So the time lost with the extra stops may actually make the service reliable. We shall see as the Welwyn North situation is very risky to performance.
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Ok, let's see how this works for Ely, based on what it says on that railplan2020 site.
Overall, passengers from stations across the South East will benefit from:
Instead the 'benefits' we get are:
Yes, it was well worth waiting 18 years for this wonderful timetable!
Overall, passengers from stations across the South East will benefit from:
- more trains - err, no. And eg. between 0930 and 1030 we actually lose one train to Kings Cross compared to today.
- more seats - err, no. Actually fewer since the 365s were replaced with the 387s last year.
- more capacity into London - err, no, see the two items above.
- longer trains - err, no. Despite continual promises, someone - whether NR, GN, whoever - continues to forgetten to plan extending the platforms at Waterbeach, so we won't be getting these any time soon.
- more services at the busiest times - err, no, see all the items above.
Instead the 'benefits' we get are:
- Extended journey times to London compared to today. In some cases more than 15% longer!
- No extra trains or extra capacity at any time that I can see.
- At least one fewer train to London at the peak/off-peak boundary in the morning.
- No later last train from London or Cambridge - despite one being 'promised' in the consultation timetable.
- The last train to London will require a change and a long wait at Cambridge. Today it is direct.
- More trains stopping at Cambridge North. (Ok, in theory this actually is a good thing, but not until we get more capacity. GN were very clear this time last year that they couldn't call most trains at Cambridge North because they were too busy. They haven't got any less busy since.)
Yes, it was well worth waiting 18 years for this wonderful timetable!
whoosh
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Or more time consuming whilst they think of another way to engineer it.
OwenB
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Looks like "my" train will now be the 18.06 KGX-WGC, looking at the link someone posted. Actually works out quite well for me, as the 17.58 is sometimes quite tight after doing battle with the Northern line.
Unfortunately it's one of those 700s with the concrete seats. Might take a cushion to work...
Failed Unit
Established Member
Any reason the can’t use selective door operating? Surely that will help the majority of the line.
TheDavibob
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To be fair, Ely got a hefty timetable upgrade only a year ago.
If you stopped the front half of an 8 coach train on the platforms at Waterbeach, the back half of the train would block the level crossing, in both directions. At Foxton, they extended the Northbound platform to avoid this. They use selective door opening on the Southbound platform as this doesn't block the level crossing.
I am not sure locking out 4 coaches is a good idea in normal service, as there's a good chance someone will use the passcom when they don't realise/notice/listen/read the warnings. Even with open gangways, that's a long way to walk.
That and the possibility of the PIS not working properly so people really do not know.
That and the possibility of the PIS not working properly so people really do not know.
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I live in Ely and work near Cambridge North, so this bit helps me. The first off peak train in the morning is now 9:17 instead of 8:58, but that stops at Cambridge North, so I'll arrive earlier than getting the 8.58 into Cambridge and coming back out again.
In the evening rush hour, at the moment there are some big gaps in the departures from Cambridge North to Ely (eg nothing between 17:26 and 18:06, or between 18:26 and 19:26). That is improved in the new timetable.
It is a pain that that last train to Ely from Cambridge has got earlier. In the new timetable, there are trains that arrive in Cambridge from Liverpool Street, Kings Cross and Brighton, all between 00:35 and 00:51. They are no use to me, because the last train to Ely left at 00:08. I won't rely on getting a train back to Ely for a flight that lands after 9pm. There is a Thameslink train from Gatwick to Cambridge at 21:46 and one via Victora to at 22:12, but a lot of evening flights are delayed by half an hour.
One downside of the 0135 and 0140 services from King's Cross is that people at Potters Bar, Hatfield or WGC (and the others the 0135 stops at today) cannot go beyond Welwyn Garden City. No way to get to Stevenage or Hitchin, or Peterborough (not that many would do the latter).
I also see 9P99 (0420 from PBO) is showing as stopping at WGC at 0522 and then running fast to FPK and through the core and on to Horsham. It is, however, a 12 car 700. While it has SDO, it seems odd unless it's to drop staff at the station because there are no other such services through the core stopping there.
On the plus side, it offers a direct connection to Gatwick Airport for early(ish) flights.
I also see 9P99 (0420 from PBO) is showing as stopping at WGC at 0522 and then running fast to FPK and through the core and on to Horsham. It is, however, a 12 car 700. While it has SDO, it seems odd unless it's to drop staff at the station because there are no other such services through the core stopping there.
On the plus side, it offers a direct connection to Gatwick Airport for early(ish) flights.
Back in the day there were separate 0136 (to Peterborough) and 0141 services (to WGC). A few years ago the 0141 got withdrawn and combined with the 0136.
I’ve not checked but a lot of the stops on the last train are set down only so technically journey opportunities between intermediate stations are already limited. What’s really needed is an all night hourly service (like proper Thameslink). It would only need a couple of extra services if the c.0400 staff train was made into a passenger service.
I’ve not checked but a lot of the stops on the last train are set down only so technically journey opportunities between intermediate stations are already limited. What’s really needed is an all night hourly service (like proper Thameslink). It would only need a couple of extra services if the c.0400 staff train was made into a passenger service.
SWR have 3 coaches locked out several times an hour all day at certain stations. Especially the busy station or Feltham, which is 7 coaches for Class 458 units (but 8 coaches for 707s). Isleworth is another where only 7 coaches open, applying to Classes 450, 458 and 707, but that station is only busy in the peaks. Guess having guards helps a lot as they make announcements before each station and if someone does activate the alarm then it is faster for them to reset it.
swt_passenger
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Before ASDO came in, there were SWT 12 car services where the doors only opened on the front unit, eg on the Portsmouth via Eastleigh. People coped with this without regular alarms going off...
Failed Unit
Established Member
How busy is the road. I can think of a few examples where roads are blocked at stations. Understand why it was not desirable for the A10, but is this a busy road?
Fairly busy. Problem is it's an AHB at Waterbech and fairly open to abuse to beat the train by weaving the barriers. It's also got fairly high pedestrian use too.
bramling
Veteran Member
You may well be on to something about the stop being primarily aimed at staff - today there are a fair few drivers who need to get to/from Welwyn carriage sidings, some of whom travel from Hitchin or further north. Could this be the real motivation for these Welwyn calls?
Failed Unit
Established Member
Ok. I can’t think of any examples of AHB crossings getting blocked by trains. The other thing that used to happen was only the rear 4 on the platform but I understand they don’t like doing this and more.
Looking at the evening timetable. That is a useful increase in capacity.
1653. 4 now - 8 from May
1658 4 now - 8 from May now 1706
1722. 8 now - same
1728. 4 now - 8 From May now 1736
1752 8 now - same
1758 8 now - same - now 1806
1822 8 now - same
1828 6 now - 8 from May now 1836
So much better overall in terms of coaches.
Not much difference to journey time between any now. Take the 1722. Since it was downgraded to a 700 no one gets a seat a Finsbury Park compared to the days it was 2x 321 when everyone got a seat that wanted one. I (and others) May get the 1736 now as it has much more capacity. Hopefully smoothing it across multiple trains. I think as well now the leave about every 15 minutes this will even out demand.
Downthelane
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Yes with four trains per hour in the peaks to and from WGC it's much closer to 'turn up and go' which will certainly smooth things out and as discussed previously there is the faster route via Finsbury Park if needed, that will prove very useful if you are in a rush and don't mind standing until the slow starts to empty.
Failed Unit
Established Member
If / when the Welwyn services run through the core it will be perfect to me (although will reduce my step count). Will even stop moaning about the extra stops.
I just hope they can make it happen.
I just hope they can make it happen.
These are the usage stats for the level crossings at Waterbeach, Foxton and Shepreth. Foxton and Shepreth both have extended platforms to avoid blocking the level crossing.
Waterbeach
http://abcrailwayguide.uk/waterbeach-public-level-crossing-cambridgeshire
4529 Vehicles, 829 Pedestrians or Cyclists
Foxton
http://abcrailwayguide.uk/foxton-mcb-public-level-crossing-cambridgeshire
15304 Vehicles, 238 Pedestrians or Cyclists
Shepreth
http://abcrailwayguide.uk/shepreth-station-public-level-crossing-cambridgeshire
2292 Vehicles, 201 Pedestrians or Cyclists
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The Kings Lynn Peak services will be calling first stop northbound at Ashwell and Morden where the platforms are 8 coaches long. A number of these services will be 12 coach 387s. At the moment the connecting doors between the units are locked so unless that changes, someone joining the back of the train at the last minute at Kings Cross will find they cannot alight at Ashwell & Morden. Though if the connecting doors are open not sure how easy it would be to walk down the train anyway.
12 coach 700s will be using SDO on the semi-fast services at Baldock as again the platforms are 8 coaches long but in this case it will be much easier to move down the train after a lot of passengers have left at Hitchin and Letchworth.
Off-peak Monday to Friday, and all day Saturdays, yes. Which is welcome, and I regularly use the additional Saturday services, but nice as these additions are, they're not at the times when extra capacity has been urgently needed for years - those being peak/shoulder-peak Monday-Friday, and Sunday mornings. At those times we actually got a capacity *reduction* due to the 365s being replaced by 387s.
Also, these trains added last year are the ones that will now take about 10 (!) minutes longer to get to KGX from May, for no readily apparent reason. In the consultation timetable this wasn't the case, they were down to take the same 65-70 minutes as they do today.
As do I, if you count the west side of the Science Park as 'near' - actually just over a mile away. As such Cambridge North should be great for me. However, it isn't. See below.
What is currently the 0928 is pretty busy now though, without gaining a lot of off-peak passengers such as yourself. I think it may end up very unpleasantly overcrowded.
Not least because the onwards travel options from Cambridge North are so poor. Unless you cycle, the only real option to access much of the Science Park, Cambridge Regional College etc. - most of the target commuting audience for the station - is a very uninspiring and dull walk of over a mile. (Or a whole one bus an hour on busway route 'N' - which Stagecoach in their infinite wisdom cut back from once every 20 minutes, just as usage was picking up). As such, most people currently either don't use the station, or cycle. And the last thing these overcrowded trains need is more people trying to bring bicycles onto them. Hence, presumably, why GN decided it wasn't possible to call these trains at Cambridge North when it opened last year. Nothing has changed since, except the lack of any progress on longer trains.
(Anecdote time : I tried using Cambridge North for my morning commute last year. I don't cycle. After a few months I found the bleakness of the whole area was really getting me down, and since about September I've once again been going into Cambridge main and getting the guided bus back to the Science Park. This lengthens my commute but on the whole it works better for my sanity... In a few years when there are shops etc. in the area, and hopefully a decent bus service to the Science Park/CRC, it may seem rather more appealing)
Agreed, but with the same caveats as above. Without capacity improvements I'm not sure this is as helpful as it would otherwise be.
Hopefully I'm wrong and things will work out nicely with the extra stops at Cambridge North, but I'm not yet convinced.
Yes, I continue to be irritated by this, especially given that the consultation timetable had a later train...
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