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'Wrong' tickets regularly issued

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Spurs

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Hiya,

I live in a fairly remote area and often take the train on a small branch line. There are two stations very close to each other, and the fares from either of them are identical in off-peak hours. The service is buy on board because we don't have any ticketing facilities at the stations, but quite often (especially when the conductor isn't one of the regulars) I get a return ticket issued which is from the closer of those two stations to my destination even though I've boarded at and explicitly asked for a ticket from the first station.

I raise this with the staff once I see, but they tell me that it doesn't matter because the fare's the same anyway. I know that technically this isn't true although most staff won't care.

The problem is that there's one conductor who isn't exactly friendly towards me. I did use to sit in a part of the train they'd less often reach and once absent-mindedly asked for a single on my way back even though they'd seen me on the outward journey before I got off - they had a go at me and charged me for a return which is fair. But since then every time I see them they obsessively checks my ticket, squints at the date on my railcard even though it's obviously the same every time etc. I've tried being very polite to them but they're constantly rude.

I'm worried that if I'm issued one of these technically incorrect returns and they happen to check my ticket once I'm already past the station my ticket technically ends at, they'll accuse me of deliberately having the wrong ticket and try to cause trouble for me.

Is there anything I can do to make sure this doesn't happen? Do I have the right to insist on my ticket being changed to the correct one? It'd be a real hassle especially if it's bought when I'm nearly at the station already but I don't want to risk it going wrong.
 
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gazthomas

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Yes, if they issue the wrong ticket as for a replacement. Or write the place name on paper and show it to them
 

pemma

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The problem is that there's one conductor who isn't exactly friendly towards me. I did use to sit in a part of the train they'd less often reach and once absent-mindedly asked for a single on my way back even though they'd seen me on the outward journey before I got off - they had a go at me and charged me for a return which is fair.

Did he issue with a return ticket the correct way around so that the outward part was the journey you had made earlier in the day? If not technically the ticket was invalid.
 

Spurs

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Did he issue with a return ticket the correct way around so that the outward part was the journey you had made earlier in the day? If not technically the ticket was invalid.
Yep they did, then scrawled over it to make clear it had already been used.
 

neilmc

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You boarded and alighted at stations which had no facilities for paying whatsoever. The conductor didn't get round to collect your fare. So on the outward journey you didn't pay even though you had the fare and were not avoiding payment thereof. That journey is now complete.

You then return later in the day. This is a completely separate journey and IMO the conductor has no right to charge you for any previous journeys even though he knows you didn't pay for them at the time, and the customer is quite entitled to purchase a single for the journey he is now making. Is this correct?

If so then surely the conductor has acted in violation of the ticketing terms and needs to be reported. I've never seen this scenario discussed before so more expert advice would be appreciated.
 

yorkie

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It may be worth asking the company to confirm if they consider the tickets that are being issued to be valid you are actually making.

If they confirm they are, then keep the letter in a safe place. If they state they are not, then insist on being issued the correct ticket unless/until the company changes its policy.
 

Spurs

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You boarded and alighted at stations which had no facilities for paying whatsoever. The conductor didn't get round to collect your fare. So on the outward journey you didn't pay even though you had the fare and were not avoiding payment thereof. That journey is now complete.

You then return later in the day. This is a completely separate journey and IMO the conductor has no right to charge you for any previous journeys even though he knows you didn't pay for them at the time, and the customer is quite entitled to purchase a single for the journey he is now making. Is this correct?

If so then surely the conductor has acted in violation of the ticketing terms and needs to be reported. I've never seen this scenario discussed before so more expert advice would be appreciated.
Yep, no facilities for paying whatsoever at either station, no staff, no ticket machines. The conductor very rarely reaches the front of the train in the timespan the journey takes either (some trains it's too busy, others they generally don't go around for the first couple of stops and it's too late to get all the way by the time they do). The informal arrangement if you travel regularly seems to be that you don't sit in the front carriage if you're only going on a short journey.

The conductor's point of view was that it's the customer's responsibility to seek them out, or at least to make themselves easy to seek out.
 

Starmill

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The conductor's point of view was that it's the customer's responsibility to seek them out, or at least to make themselves easy to seek out.
I see no evidence to support this point of view.
 

whhistle

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You boarded and alighted at stations [and] that journey is now complete.
You then return later in the day. This is a completely separate journey...
Not sure where the law would stand on this but if the journey was part of a return, and the person would want to buy a return, the return journey wouldn't be completely separate.

That said, I have a fair bit of admiration for people who buy their ticket at the destination, even if outside of the barrier and it was a single.

Surely though, the angry guard would have to issue an excess, which would end up at £0 anyway?
 

londonbridge

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You boarded and alighted at stations which had no facilities for paying whatsoever. The conductor didn't get round to collect your fare. So on the outward journey you didn't pay even though you had the fare and were not avoiding payment thereof. That journey is now complete.

You then return later in the day. This is a completely separate journey and IMO the conductor has no right to charge you for any previous journeys even though he knows you didn't pay for them at the time, and the customer is quite entitled to purchase a single for the journey he is now making. Is this correct?

Posted this one earlier, last time I went to The Hawthorns I boarded the tram in Birmingham City Centre, the conductor came down the car collecting fares but did not reach me, as we left the stop before The Hawthorns I approached him and asked for a ticket and he told me to just jump off. After the match, no RPIs checking tickets or taking payments on the platform, boarded the tram, again conductor did not reach me before we reached Birmingham, had he done so I would have mentioned that I hadn't paid on the outward leg and would have asked for a return, as it was I just got off and got a free ride both ways.
 

island

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There is no obligation to seek out the conductor, nor to seek to pay for a journey at a later stage where no ticketing facilities were available at any point before, during, or immediately after the journey.
 

robbeech

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In many areas, on shorter journeys an Off Peak Day Return is only 10p more than a day single and an off peak period return is only £1 more than an off peak period single. It is therefore almost pointless to worry about the difference anyway so you are hardly defrauding the railway if you only buy a single on the way back if no facilities are presented to you on the outward journey but also, you are not really saving any money by doing so.

As others have said, if the opportunity to purchase a ticket on the outward did not present itself before boarding, whilst on the train, or at your destination then there is very little you can do about this. On the return journey you only need to purchase a single and if you are charged for a return for this reason i would seek out a refund on this explaining that you have been wrongly charged.

As for your ticket, regardless of them being the same price, your ticket validity ends at the station listed so you wouldn't have a valid ticket to the last station. It's important to get this sorted as one day you may find a revenue block at your destination and due to the fairly unique way you are guilty until you can prove yourself innocent and then you're still guilty anyway with SOME ticketing scenarios you could end up with a lot of faff and a significant financial penalty for something that should have zero cost to you, and is essentially a failing on the part of the railway in the initial instance. The next time you ask for a ticket, make sure you clearly state the correct station, and if they print it wrong, tell them you wish for it to be corrected. If they refuse, firstly get an excess on the return portion and additionally write to the TOC involved and inform them politely about this, clearly stating which service you was on.
 

robbeech

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Nor me. There is reasonable consensus on this board among experienced posters that passengers don’t need to actively seek out the conductor.

Absolutely, whilst it wouldn’t hurt to get their attention if they are close by there is certainly no requirement for you to wander up and down the train (whilst keeping an eye on your luggage at all times) to find them.
 

bunnahabhain

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Regarding Mansfield and Mansfield Woodhouse if I'm busy I'll sometimes sell tickets still from Woodhouse even though passengers boarded at the Town station.
 

A Challenge

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As long as that's towards Nottingham, and the price is the same, there should be no problem.
 

robbeech

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Regarding Mansfield and Mansfield Woodhouse if I'm busy I'll sometimes sell tickets still from Woodhouse even though passengers boarded at the Town station.

And what about the other way around? Would you happily sell someone a CDR to Whitwell from Mansfield if they got on at Mansfield Woodhouse?
 

A Challenge

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Edited original post out: misread brfares

Interestingly for Sutton Parkway (which the same in the other direction) that isn't true
 

bunnahabhain

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And what about the other way around? Would you happily sell someone a CDR to Whitwell from Mansfield if they got on at Mansfield Woodhouse?
No because I'm not a moron, and know what, where, and when I can do things.
 

bunnahabhain

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And for that we are all grateful, it seems that unfortunately some guards are unable to think like this.
I can't think of many who will deliberately overcharge. I would say it's most uncommon and perhaps a little like tarring us with the same brush.
 

BurtonM

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I raise this with the staff once I see, but they tell me that it doesn't matter because the fare's the same anyway.

I've had similar issues with this the past when trying to get a zero fare excess. The guard just told me not to worry about it when I asked - when I got off the train a Northern revenue shark tried to have me for overtravelling even though my ticket was valid for Break of Journey (it was a strange case involving a certain station group where the Routing Guide made it possible to travel through the station group, interchange and go back in a different way from the other side, and the route was a lower mileage than a direct journey thus making it valid).
I think you could possibly use 'acting on authority of railway staff' as a justifier if they intentionally issue the 'wrong' ticket in cases like this, the problem is it's hard to prove/argue especially if a guard has a seemingly personal issue with you, and some TOCs might still try to prosecute on the principle of short faring even if it's over £0.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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some TOCs might still try to prosecute on the principle of short faring even if it's over £0.

Indeed they do - see the article about the 'short-farer' who bought a ticket to Cardiff rather than Heath High Level.
 
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