Dispatch procedure when there are multiple station dispatchers present

pt_mad · 24 Mar 2018

I was wondering what the official dispatch process is at stations where there are multiple dispatchers present on the platform for a given train and the dispatch is carried out with a guard present. I understand that one member of dispatch staff acts as 'the person in charge of dispatch' i.e. the person who gives the actual station work complete and train safety check complete handsignals to the guard. However, what I was wondering was, how does the guard know which of the multiple dispatch staff is the person in charge of dispatch? As couldn't the guard easily take the handsignals from the first dispatcher, when that dispatcher was only indicating to the person in charge of dispatch that their area is clear and that they can then carry out their check, to then finally pass on to the guard?

Sometimes, for example at Doncaster, there are two dispatchers present at an East Coast electric set. The platform is straight. The guard could get out of the train anywhere and be standing anywhere on the platform. So how is it decided amongst the dispatchers who will be the 'dispatch staff' and who will be the 'person in charge of dispatch' when they dont know who will be closest to the guard until the guard is visible?

Especially with lamps at night, what stops the guard seeing dispatcher one at the south end shine a lamp and the guard taking this as the tip and closing the doors before the second dispatcher (person in charge of dispatch) has shone them a lamp?

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tsr · 24 Mar 2018

This opens a bit of a can of worms because it varies per each area of the country, even down to TOC, station or platform.

Normally there is a set dispatch procedure which either recommends or enforces a certain number of people. More can be provided in some scenarios, such as longer trains, poor visibility or overcrowding. Some stations have specific numbers of dispatch staff for heightened safety during certain events, for example.

Typically the guard will know the minimum requirement for the number of staff to safely see the train, or (if it’s a particularly tricky one, which it can be) clarify with the staff on duty. They will then wait to see handsignals in sequence from each required member of staff, to the person in charge, and then to themselves - or, if the platform curvature or weather means they can’t see everyone, which is fairly usual, they will wait for everyone else to do their bit and then watch the final signal from the person in charge.

There are, as you quite rightly say, many locations where the guard can operate the doors and dispatch anywhere in the train’s formation, without affecting safety. In these cases, there may be instructions that the person in charge of dispatch is the one closest to the guard, or if two staff are equidistant (a good example of this is East Croydon), it will be the dispatcher who is also closest to a large and unambiguous fixed point, such as the platform entrance or the station footbridge.

Sometimes the guard themselves will be person in charge of dispatch (an example of this was one of the platforms at Lewes when 442s called there, back in ye day), and they will receive signals from assisting dispatchers who can’t see each other or don’t need to.

There are occasionally different markers by means of different coloured hi-vis clothing or different types of dispatch bat markings, but that sort of stuff seems to be getting rarer.

FGW_DID · 24 Mar 2018

Regardless of how many ‘handsignals’ there are from various staff, they are just assistant dispatchers. The only signal the guard should be looking for is from the PIC who will give the ‘tips’ with a white dispatch baton during daylight or a white light during darkness.

tsr · 24 Mar 2018

FGW_DID said:
Regardless of how many ‘handsignals’ there are from various staff, they are just assistant dispatchers. The only signal the guard should be looking for is from the PIC who will give the ‘tips’ with a white dispatch baton during daylight or a white light during darkness.

The assisting dispatchers are showing a signal towards the guard. There are many guards who have been taught the good practice of acknowledgement of each handsignal they see.

I have personally been involved in several incidents where an assisting dispatcher has shone a red light at the guard when the person in charge of dispatch wouldn’t actually have seen the problem, but it was a good thing someone did...

FGW_DID · 24 Mar 2018

Emergency stopping a train is different, we are talking normal dispatch of a train as per the OP.

The assisting dispatcher(s) will raise a hand to show ready and it should be aimed towards the PIC, the PIC will give the tips with a baton/ light and this is the only one a guard should act on, they can acknowledge handsignals all they want but what’s the point, they should only act on the ‘tip’ from the PIC.

At least that’s how it was when I was dispatching and I haven’t seen it change when I pass through my old station.

pt_mad · 24 Mar 2018

FGW_DID said:
Emergency stopping a train is different, we are talking normal dispatch of a train as per the OP.

The assisting dispatcher(s) will raise a hand to show ready and it should be aimed towards the PIC, the PIC will give the tips with a baton/ light and this is the only one a guard should act on, they can acknowledge handsignals all they want but what’s the point, they should only act on the ‘tip’ from the PIC.

At least that’s how it was when I was dispatching and I haven’t seen it change when I pass through my old station.

But how does the guard know which dispatcher is acting as the PIC? At some locations, including Peterborough and Doncaster, several dispatchers can be using a bat on the same train and yet only one is the PIC. How does the guard know who is PIC, on a straight platform when multiple dispatchers are using bats, as is the case at many other locations also.

321446 · 24 Mar 2018

Stratford Plt 9/10. PIC usually positions themselves as closest to guard/DOO driver. The assistants give the signal that it is safe to start dispatch procedure to Person In Charge. That person checks (as far as possible) that there are no reasons not to start. They then give close doors to guard/driver. That pause between two or three or four baton’s held aloft and acknowledged by PIC then one single baton being displayed to guard/driver also reinforces who the PIC is.

tsr · 25 Mar 2018

FGW_DID said:
Emergency stopping a train is different, we are talking normal dispatch of a train as per the OP.

Emergency stopping should be considered a possibility during all normal (or other) dispatch. That is why you keep an eye out for signals from all (appropriate) staff you can see.

The assisting dispatcher(s) will raise a hand to show ready and it should be aimed towards the PIC, the PIC will give the tips with a baton/ light and this is the only one a guard should act on, they can acknowledge handsignals all they want but what’s the point, they should only act on the ‘tip’ from the PIC.

Eh? Assisting dispatchers regularly use a bat (and certainly should use an appropriate light in darkness) and it's by far the clearest that way. All handsignals are important, as so far as one would be concerned as a guard, you'll be accountable for dealing with anything you could see that could have affected dispatch.

At least that’s how it was when I was dispatching and I haven’t seen it change when I pass through my old station.

I still have competency to do it, and this is how it has been taught to me. It doesn't often go wrong, either, put it that way.

pt_mad said:
But how does the guard know which dispatcher is acting as the PIC? At some locations, including Peterborough and Doncaster, several dispatchers can be using a bat on the same train and yet only one is the PIC. How does the guard know who is PIC, on a straight platform when multiple dispatchers are using bats, as is the case at many other locations also.

I explained this earlier... basically, there will be a set position or other deliberate specification of the person in charge:

tsr said:
There are, as you quite rightly say, many locations where the guard can operate the doors and dispatch anywhere in the train’s formation, without affecting safety. In these cases, there may be instructions that the person in charge of dispatch is the one closest to the guard, or if two staff are equidistant (a good example of this is East Croydon), it will be the dispatcher who is also closest to a large and unambiguous fixed point, such as the platform entrance or the station footbridge.

321446 said:
That pause between two or three or four baton’s held aloft and acknowledged by PIC then one single baton being displayed to guard/driver also reinforces who the PIC is.

One has to be careful with this one. At some locations it will be near enough simultaneous!

the sniper · 25 Mar 2018

FGW_DID said:
The assisting dispatcher(s) will raise a hand to show ready and it should be aimed towards the PIC, the PIC will give the tips with a baton/ light and this is the only one a guard should act on, they can acknowledge handsignals all they want but what’s the point, they should only act on the ‘tip’ from the PIC.

Varies by local instruction. At Birmingham New Street for example the assisting dispatchers always use a white light, in addition to the PIC. You'll know who's the PIC there because they'll be stood next to the TRTS/RA box. They'll also be the first to give the 'Tip'.

Urban Gateline · 25 Mar 2018

It definitely varies by local instruction! At Euston (LNR)the PIC is at the TRTS/CD/RA box and gives the tip using Baton and "CD", whilst any assisting dispatchers use a hand signal to the PIC. The station is fairly well lit hence using hand signals, in darkness I agree it would be more complicated but each station has a Train Dispatch Method Statement which is relevant to that particular location and details how the dispatch process takes place there.

FGW_DID · 25 Mar 2018

pt_mad said:
But how does the guard know which dispatcher is acting as the PIC? At some locations, including Peterborough and Doncaster, several dispatchers can be using a bat on the same train and yet only one is the PIC. How does the guard know who is PIC, on a straight platform when multiple dispatchers are using bats, as is the case at many other locations also.

Good question, how do you know which bat is which? Too much chance for confusion.

tsr said:
Emergency stopping should be considered a possibility during all normal (or other) dispatch. That is why you keep an eye out for signals from all (appropriate) staff you can see.

Eh? Assisting dispatchers regularly use a bat (and certainly should use an appropriate light in darkness) and it's by far the clearest that way. All handsignals are important, as so far as one would be concerned as a guard, you'll be accountable for dealing with anything you could see that could have affected dispatch.

I still have competency to do it, and this is how it has been taught to me. It doesn't often go wrong, either, put it that way.

I explained this earlier... basically, there will be a set position or other deliberate specification of the person in charge:

One has to be careful with this one. At some locations it will be near enough simultaneous!

Well obviously some TOCs do it differently then!
Obviously the possibility of emergency stopping a train is part of the dispatch process but that’s not what the OP was asking!
The ‘tip’ should come from one person and that’s the PIC. The Guard can watch every Tom, Dick and Harry as much as they like, it’s the PIC who gives the go ahead. Anybody can signal to emergency stop a train and if the Guard sees them first before the PIC is aware then all well and good!

When I was dispatching, the deliberate specification of the PIC was that they were the only one who used the bat!

Obviously we were both doing the job right and for that we will both have to agree to disagree, but to me, assisting dispatchers using a bat / light is a concept that could lead to confusion but if other TOCs deem it suitable, then so be it.

pt_mad · 25 Mar 2018

FGW_DID said:
Good question, how do you know which bat is which? Too much chance for confusion.

Well obviously some TOCs do it differently then!
Obviously the possibility of emergency stopping a train is part of the dispatch process but that’s not what the OP was asking!
The ‘tip’ should come from one person and that’s the PIC. The Guard can watch every Tom, Dick and Harry as much as they like, it’s the PIC who gives the go ahead. Anybody can signal to emergency stop a train and if the Guard sees them first before the PIC is aware then all well and good!

When I was dispatching, the deliberate specification of the PIC was that they were the only one who used the bat!

Obviously we were both doing the job right and for that we will both have to agree to disagree, but to me, assisting dispatchers using a bat / light is a concept that could lead to confusion but if other TOCs deem it suitable, then so be it.

I still do not see how it's clear who the PIC is. A poster above said they had explained it and the PIC is usually differentiated in some way. But I just can't see that. At many stations all staff are in the same cokour vests, no RA is used, platform is straight and the guard appears to step out at the front of one train, rear on the next, middle on the next. If say Keith is the PIC for that shift on expresses, it doesn't seem clear how the guard would know this. Also at TOCs who do not wear hi Vis vests (but may wear red uniforms for example), who's to say the PIC is obvious to the guard? Another dispatcher also at stations without hi Vis may be positioned closer to the guard than the PIC and this may be the obvious bat the guard sees. Even though they are not the PIC.

I'll be more specific. Say you have a location where usually one person is present to dispatch an express with electric doors. 95 percent of the time there is one dispatcher and the guard takes the tip from them. They may be standing anywhere as they also do assists. And so may the guard. Dispatch plan may read dispatcher and guard may be positioned anywhere alongside the train.
However, on the odd occasion where another member of staff is 'spare', that member of staff is allocated dispatch duties to assist the PIC with dispatch on the expresses, which most of the time usually are dispatched by just the PIC.
So on these occasions, where there are two dispatchers, if the assistant dispatcher uses a bat and either staff can be positioned anywhere and don't know where the guard will be, the chances are the guard is going to take the first bat raised as the station work complete handsignal and close the doors. As said if staff don't wear hi Vis vests they may well not even notice a second dispatcher is present in the platform if there are a lot of passengers around. Even if they did wear vests, it wouldn't be obvious both were dispatch staff if 95 percent of the time the train was dispatched by one dispatcher.

CC 72100 · 25 Mar 2018

pt_mad said:
I still do not see how it's clear who the PIC is. A poster above said they had explained it and the PIC is usually differentiated in some way. But I just can't see that. At many stations all staff are in the same cokour vests, no RA is used, platform is straight and the guard appears to step out at the front of one train, rear on the next, middle on the next. If say Keith is the PIC for that shift on expresses, it doesn't seem clear how the guard would know this.

Without wanting to sound facetious, and this generally isn't a sarcastic dig, what about the Guard simply speaking with the platform staff to confirm who is the PIC and who is the Assist Dispatch?

At one of the stations on a route I sign, I can be dispatched by 2 people, 1 person, or *shudder*, self-dispatch*.

As a result, whenever I arrive, I always ask one of the dispatchers "how many of you are there?". Admittedly I did once get a response "well there's one of me, the one and only, but I do have a colleague" :rolleyes:

but joking aside I then know how many dispatchers will be working on my train. At that location, the PIC is always closest to me (so at that point I know to ignore any bat waving further down the platform), but it's important to know the dispatch method as there are 2 different instructions from where I should dispatch from depending on how many dispatchers there are.

*I say shudder, because self-dispatching a slam door train at night in the dark for the first time is scary, partly because of the conditions, partly because it feels all 'wrong' as it's the first time I've dispatched myself.

pt_mad · 26 Mar 2018

Is there ever a situation where an assisting staff member could use the radio, not to be involved in the dispatch procedure but to verbally indicate to the PIC that it is safe to start the dispatch procedure at a particular end of the train?

jymiee · 2 Apr 2018

The dispatch matrix for my station, both platforms, states that the Train Manager must dispatch from the rear 3 coaches, PIC of dispatch in the centre 3 (with a dispatch baton capable of showing a white, green and red light) and an assistant dispatcher at the front 3 coaches using hand signal only. The baton/hand signal use is irrelevant because the PIC of dispatch will always be the dispatcher closest to the TM therefore there can be no confusion. I can however understand how it may be confusing for stations without set matrices or with multiple batons.

pt_mad · 3 Apr 2018

I was thinking about the way it's done on GTR at some stations. And on the underground. Where a platform person sort of assists with loading and let's the driver know it's safe to begin a safe dispatch, but are not part of the dispatch procedure themselves officially per say.

Are there any locations or scenarios where an assisting trained dispatcher could help with safe loading and prompting but not be part of the official dispatch procedure itself? So that the guard would only see one bat and wouldn't acknowledge the assisting member of platform staff, and wouldn't need to observe any hand signals from them?

As in when a second member of staff is available to assist in station duties but this is a rare occurrence, they could stand further along the train and monitor safe passenger loading and unloading. They could even assist with the whistle of verbal commands (they are trained in dispatch). When their section of the train is clear of passengers loading, they could inform the PIC via walkie talkie that passengers have finished loading. And the PIC would know that where the colleague is standing passengers have finished movements and it's now safe to commence the full dispatch procedure themselves?

There's be no need for the PIC to acknowledge this on the radio. Just listen out for the first 'passengers finished loading' message.
From this point on, only the PIC would carry out the full dispatch from start to finish with the guard.

Would this comply with the rulebook? I would have thought so and would save any confusion for the guard if 95% of the time at a particular station there's only one member of staff present for dispatch. Bit on one or two rare occasions there's two members of staff present for station work.

jymiee · 3 Apr 2018

pt_mad said:
I was thinking about the way it's done on GTR at some stations. And on the underground. Where a platform person sort of assists with loading and let's the driver know it's safe to begin a safe dispatch, but are not part of the dispatch procedure themselves officially per say.

Are there any locations or scenarios where an assisting trained dispatcher could help with safe loading and prompting but not be part of the official dispatch procedure itself? So that the guard would only see one bat and wouldn't acknowledge the assisting member of platform staff, and wouldn't need to observe any hand signals from them?

As in when a second member of staff is available to assist in station duties but this is a rare occurrence, they could stand further along the train and monitor safe passenger loading and unloading. They could even assist with the whistle of verbal commands (they are trained in dispatch). When their section of the train is clear of passengers loading, they could inform the PIC via walkie talkie that passengers have finished loading. And the PIC would know that where the colleague is standing passengers have finished movements and it's now safe to commence the full dispatch procedure themselves?

There's be no need for the PIC to acknowledge this on the radio. Just listen out for the first 'passengers finished loading' message.
From this point on, only the PIC would carry out the full dispatch from start to finish with the guard.

Would this comply with the rulebook? I would have thought so and would save any confusion for the guard if 95% of the time at a particular station there's only one member of staff present for dispatch. Bit on one or two rare occasions there's two members of staff present for station work.

This is the case at my station which is manned by two dispatchers for our own TOC's trains and XC HSTs. However, we also get XC Voyagers stopping which only require one dispatcher (this dispatcher will use a dispatch baton) and therefore the second (spare) dispatcher will usually assist with the loading of passengers, especially where reduced mobility passengers are involved. This has led in the past to a few occasions where the spare dispatcher has accidentally been sent away on a Voyager by a forgetful lead dispatcher.

pt_mad · 3 Apr 2018

jymiee said:
This is the case at my station which is manned by two dispatchers for our own TOC's trains and XC HSTs. However, we also get XC Voyagers stopping which only require one dispatcher (this dispatcher will use a dispatch baton) and therefore the second (spare) dispatcher will usually assist with the loading of passengers, especially where reduced mobility passengers are involved. This has led in the past to a few occasions where the spare dispatcher has accidentally been sent away on a Voyager by a forgetful lead dispatcher.

On the Voyagers then...
Does the spare assisting platform staff use the radio to give a message of something like all clear, to indicate passengers near them have finished movements and it's safe to commence the dispatch procedure?

jymiee · 3 Apr 2018

pt_mad said:
On the Voyagers then...
Does the spare assisting platform staff use the radio to give a message of something like all clear, to indicate passengers near them have finished movements and it's safe to commence the dispatch procedure?

There is no set rule on this. We do carry radios, my employer deems them safety critical equipment. Occasionally there will be a “right that’s me done mate” or a “good to go” on the radio but 9 times /10 I find myself just observing the spare dispatcher until I can see that they are back on the platform and not in the process of doing anything. There may be the occasional thumbs up or nod. They would sharp raise two hands above their head to stop me if they hadn’t completed what they were doing and I had started the dispatch.

pt_mad · 3 Apr 2018

jymiee said:
There is no set rule on this. We do carry radios, my employer deems them safety critical equipment. Occasionally there will be a “right that’s me done mate” or a “good to go” on the radio but 9 times /10 I find myself just observing the spare dispatcher until I can see that they are back on the platform and not in the process of doing anything. There may be the occasional thumbs up or nod. They would sharp raise two hands above their head to stop me if they hadn’t completed what they were doing and I had started the dispatch.

Good insight thanks.

When you mentioned your employer deems radios safety critical equipment. What does that mean? That they are a tool of the job used to communicate safety critical messages and this is permitted and welcomed?

ComUtoR · 3 Apr 2018

pt_mad said:
I was thinking about the way it's done on GTR at some stations. (..) Where a platform person sort of assists with loading and let's the driver know it's safe to begin a safe dispatch, but are not part of the dispatch procedure themselves officially per say.

What you see and what is actually being done is very very different.

tsr · 3 Apr 2018

ComUtoR said:
What you see and what is actually being done is very very different.

That's basically it, unfortunately, at a number of stations served by TL trains now. In fact, a lot of the time the platform staff won't even tell the driver it's OK to do anything, formally or not.

It's somewhat disconcerting to see platform staff fiddling around near the train, blowing whistles and suchlike, but having no clue how dispatch is going because the driver is cracking on with it themselves.

pt_mad · 3 Apr 2018

Didn't someone say they were called 'platform buddies' at some GTR locations? As unflattering as that is.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there's a similar arrangement at London Underground. But there, the staff dont hold dispatch competency. Instead they hustle the crowds and use a baton to indicate to the driver that loading is complete and it is safe for the driver to begin carrying out the dispatch procedure?

ComUtoR · 3 Apr 2018

tsr said:
That's basically it, unfortunately, at a number of stations served by TL trains now. In fact, a lot of the time the platform staff won't even tell the driver it's OK to do anything, formally or not.

Which is how it should be. It is just as frustrating for all involved but with the PTI being such a significant risk; nobody is prepared to step outside their role.

It's somewhat disconcerting to see platform staff fiddling around near the train, blowing whistles and suchlike, but having no clue how dispatch is going because the driver is cracking on with it themselves.

It has not been unknown for a Driver to accept dispatch or accept that a member of staff indicating the platform is clear a a sign to close the doors. A few incidents later and it has lessened over recent years and with 700s having cameras; staff tend to back off more.

ComUtoR · 3 Apr 2018

pt_mad said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think there's a similar arrangement at London Underground. But there, the staff dont hold dispatch competency. Instead they hustle the crowds and use a baton to indicate to the driver that loading is complete and it is safe for the driver to begin carrying out the dispatch procedure?

For the second time. There is no such arrangement on GTR. No member of staff without a dispatch license should show any indication to the Driver and no Driver should accept dispatch, other than what is specified in the dispatch plan for that location.

Platform staff are doing their job, Drivers are doing theirs. It may appear that both are connected but they aren't.

tsr · 3 Apr 2018

pt_mad said:
Didn't someone say they were called 'platform buddies' at some GTR locations? As unflattering as that is.

The term “buddies” has been used informally for assisting station staff, in one sense or another, in certain areas of the country for quite a while. Can’t say I’ve heard it at GTR stations yet.

ComUtoR said:
Which is how it should be. It is just as frustrating for all involved but with the PTI being such a significant risk; nobody is prepared to step outside their role.

I think we’ve just looked at it two different ways!

I’d rather any platform staff assisting with passengers boarding/alighting were able to communicate with the driver. If they do not communicate, obviously they cannot be giving a “station work complete” indication, therefore the procedure being used is that the driver is self-dispatching, even though somebody has been doing station work and should be clearly telling them when they’re done. (This would then need to be followed by the rest of the dispatch procedure anyway.) The disconnection between “driver in cab” and “bloke on platform with whistle, orange jacket and stack of luggage” is really what I’m on about.

However, as I see it, what you’ve found is that fully DOO dispatch locations have had station staff muttering random things at drivers, who have incorrectly assumed this is permission to trundle off. What you’re saying, I think, is that if you really must dispatch by yourself, you really shouldn’t be distracted by messages which are ambiguous yet could interfere. On this I agree!

ComUtoR · 3 Apr 2018

Any platform staff assisting need to have the license or they cannot dispatch. I would absolutely agree that the communication should be allowed to happen. Any improvement to the PTI should be supported. That is however, in direct opposition to DOO dispatch. With DOO the Driver is doing all of it. If they took staff dispatch at a DOO platform then all hell would break loose. What you say is correct. They are effectively interfering with dispatch and are causing a distraction and introducing an additional risk. Someone doing this without the relevant qualifications is just increasing the risk further.

Having the platform staff deal with passengers on the platform is a godsend. They often prevent people running or diving into closing doors and they provide much needed assistance. This makes DOO a lot easier. I would rather be DOO at Blackfriars in the peak with the staff there doing their jobs; than dispatching myself DOO at somewhere as remote as Shoreham.

It happened at [redacted] quite a bit. Platform staff would raise their hands and you can see them do it in the DOO monitors. It is very easy to be mislead into thinking that they see the platform as being clear. However, they often have no clue about dispatch procedures and simply believe they are helping. I would love them to help and be part of the procedure but they aren't and that risk is way to high. We just ignore them as best as humanly possible.

jymiee · 4 Apr 2018

pt_mad said:
Good insight thanks.

When you mentioned your employer deems radios safety critical equipment. What does that mean? That they are a tool of the job used to communicate safety critical messages and this is permitted and welcomed?

Pretty much although the wording is more along the lines of, you shouldn’t be dispatching without them.

Dispatch procedure when there are multiple station dispatchers present

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