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Penalty Fares / Compulsory Ticket Area?

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Baxenden Bank

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Why not 25th (and 26th?) December as it is closed then anyway?
I was thinking in terms of examples I have seen (non railway), where a clearly visible notice states something like 'this route is not dedicated as a right of way and will be closed on 1 January each year). In practice any day will do, the intention of the closure is to show that unrestricted access has never been available because the route is closed at least one day per year.
 
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MG11

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Did anyone say they were ?



The report you quoted (not that I could actually see it on the blog you linked) confirms that it is YOU who are wrong.
No. Your post implied that because you were using a service which took you outside the railway property, you believed that grants you rights to walk through a National Rail station without a ticket. Trams and the National Rail network are two different things.
 

sheff1

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No. Your post implied that because you were using a service which took you outside the railway property, you believed that grants you rights to walk through a National Rail station without a ticket.

How you came to that conclusion I have no idea.

I repeat - I was not given the "pass token" you claimed is issued. That disproves your assertion that anyone trying to exit at the other end without a token, must have come from a platform and therefore must have come off a train - I had no token, had not come from a platform and had not been anywhere near a train.
 

telstarbox

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I was at Catford (Thameslink) if that makes any difference, there are various Southeastern/Thameslink/Southern stations nearby with similar layouts.
 

MG11

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How you came to that conclusion I have no idea.

I repeat - I was not given the "pass token" you claimed is issued. That disproves your assertion that anyone trying to exit at the other end without a token, must have come from a platform and therefore must have come off a train - I had no token, had not come from a platform and had not been anywhere near a train.
Just because you wasn't given a pass token doesn't mean it didn't happen. You struggle to distinguish your experience with what usually happens.
 

221129

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Just because you wasn't given a pass token doesn't mean it didn't happen. You struggle to distinguish your experience with what usually happens.
You are talking nonsense, as usual, proving once again you have very little actual knowledge on the subject.
 

yorkie

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Just because you wasn't given a pass token doesn't mean it didn't happen. You struggle to distinguish your experience with what usually happens.
If sheff1 says he is certain he has not been issued with a token, I see no reason why that should be questioned.
...you believed that grants you rights to walk through a National Rail station without a ticket. ....

There is no requirement to have a rail ticket to walk through Sheffield station!

What are you trying to say?
 

MG11

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If sheff1 says he is certain he has not been issued with a token, I see no reason why that should be questioned.


There is no requirement to have a rail ticket to walk through Sheffield station!

What are you trying to say?
Sheff1 may not have been asked to use a token, however this does not mean that a token system has never been used.
 

yorkie

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Sheff1 may not have been asked to use a token, however this does not mean that a token system has never been used.
No, but you said:
....when they do stings on the bridge, they issue a pass token to those who want to pass through,....
However sheff1 has experienced a "sting"; he wanted to pass through, and was not given a token.
 

MG11

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No, but you said:

However sheff1 has experienced a "sting"; he wanted to pass through, and was not given a token.
On this occasion he may not have been issued a token, but the Revenue Protection Officers do issue them on stings.
 

philthetube

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My understanding is that the bridge at Sheffield isn't a public highway as such, it's private land (belonging to the railway and it's appointed operators), with a public right of way forming part of it. I see it a bit like some farmer's having rights of way through their fields. I think that makes it different to obstructing a public highway. Not to mention the fact that there is much legislation and byelaws to protect the railways operating in the way the do.
A pulbic footpath is a public highway, the same closure measures have to occur as if closing a public road.
 

ainsworth74

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Your post implied that because you were using a service which took you outside the railway property, you believed that grants you rights to walk through a National Rail station without a ticket.
Outside of stations containing compulsory ticket areas there is no need to hold a ticket to walk through a railway station (even then a ticket is only required to enter the compulsory ticket area of the station). This is, of course, why barrier staff will usually allow people through the barriers to meet people off of trains as a barrier does not mark a compulsory ticket area.
 

LowLevel

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At Nottingham they just watch the stairs from the platforms and anyone wishing to use the public right of way (there never seem to be huge numbers!) is allowed to pass unhindered beyond the initial question. The right of way is on this bridge following the demolition of the East end footbridge in the 1980s.
 

MG11

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The person who brought up tram tickets though, seemed to
Outside of stations containing compulsory ticket areas there is no need to hold a ticket to walk through a railway station (even then a ticket is only required to enter the compulsory ticket area of the station). This is, of course, why barrier staff will usually allow people through the barriers to meet people off of trains as a barrier does not mark a compulsory ticket area.
At some stations, they issue something called a Platform Ticket for such thing. I know stations like Waterloo do. I wanted to use the toilet at Tamworth once and went to buy one though, was told they didn't sell them anymore, but the member of staff gave me permission to use the toilet so I thought no nore of it.
 

ainsworth74

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At some stations, they issue something called a Platform Ticket for such thing. I know stations like Waterloo do. I wanted to use the toilet at Tamworth once and went to buy one though, was told they didn't sell them anymore, but the member of staff gave me permission to use the toilet so I thought no nore of it.

As I stated outside of a designated compulsory ticket area there is no requirement to hold a ticket to walk through a railway station. A platform ticket may be issued to make life simpler for everyone but it is not a requirement.
 

Baxenden Bank

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At Nottingham they just watch the stairs from the platforms and anyone wishing to use the public right of way (there never seem to be huge numbers!) is allowed to pass unhindered beyond the initial question. The right of way is on this bridge following the demolition of the East end footbridge in the 1980s.
The stop for initial questioning is hindering someone's right to use the highway unhindered. It is therefore an unlawful obstruction rather than a lawful obstruction. Landowners need permission from the highway authority to erect gates / stiles on public rights of way for that same reason. To pass and repass, unhindered. That is why the police have detailed rules about stopping people and asking them questions, or searching them, or arresting them.

Most people have no problem with a simple question. However a small number of people would feel intimidated by any questioning when they are going about their lawful business and may be deterred from going about that lawful business. That is why it is a 'right' and not a 'deemed permission' to cross the bridge.
 

221129

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The stop for initial questioning is hindering someone's right to use the highway unhindered. It is therefore an unlawful obstruction rather than a lawful obstruction. Landowners need permission from the highway authority to erect gates / stiles on public rights of way for that same reason. To pass and repass, unhindered. That is why the police have detailed rules about stopping people and asking them questions, or searching them, or arresting them.

Most people have no problem with a simple question. However a small number of people would feel intimidated by any questioning when they are going about their lawful business and may be deterred from going about that lawful business. That is why it is a 'right' and not a 'deemed permission' to cross the bridge.
Although it's not a public right of way or a public highway at Sheffield...
 

Baxenden Bank

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The person who brought up tram tickets though, seemed to

At some stations, they issue something called a Platform Ticket for such thing. I know stations like Waterloo do. I wanted to use the toilet at Tamworth once and went to buy one though, was told they didn't sell them anymore, but the member of staff gave me permission to use the toilet so I thought no nore of it.
Back to the original point. Purchase of a platform ticket would show intention / grant permission to go on the platform to meet someone rather than travel. Buying one nowadays at a gated station would presumably let you through the barriers, in and out, at that specific station. They used to be much more common, and required, when manual ticket checks were much more common back in the day. I often had to buy one back in the 1980's. They are hardly mentioned nowadays. If I used a Penalty Fares / Compulsory Ticket Area station for meeting and greeting, where there were often random revenue blocks, I would be approaching the ticket office to buy a platform ticket.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Although it's not a public right of way or a public highway at Sheffield...
I thought we had established that!

So a refusal to allow people to merely cross, rather than travel, may be acceptable and legal, however inconvenient.

It would depend on what was agreed between the relevant parties at the time of the public funding of the footbridge extension referred to by a previous post. I suspect nothing was set out because, at that time, no one thought it an issue! Manual ticket barriers had been done away with at Sheffield (and many other stations) with no thought that they would ever return - manual or otherwise. I know they existed at Sheffield because I got caught by them, in the 1980's. Trying to travel on a West Yorkshire Day Ticket into Sheffield to then buy a South Yorkshire Day Ticket - I wasn't trying to avoid the fare, merely trying to avoid alighting at the boundary station to buy one. Had to buy a single from the boundary to Sheffield and then buy my day ticket at the ticket office!
 

MG11

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Back to the original point. Purchase of a platform ticket would show intention / grant permission to go on the platform to meet someone rather than travel. Buying one nowadays at a gated station would presumably let you through the barriers, in and out, at that specific station. They used to be much more common, and required, when manual ticket checks were much more common back in the day. I often had to buy one back in the 1980's. They are hardly mentioned nowadays. If I used a Penalty Fares / Compulsory Ticket Area station for meeting and greeting, where there were often random revenue blocks, I would be approaching the ticket office to buy a platform ticket.
It's a good idea to at least endeavour to buy one or at some Network Rail stations you can actually sign in. Unlike in a shop where you have to pick something up to be accused of theft, stealing a journey is more complex and you could well find yourself in trouble.
 

DavidGrain

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At Derby Station, I asked the lady on the barrier gate for permission to cross the footbridge as I could not see a viable way to the other side. She let me through and told me to tell them on the barrier at the other end that she had let me through. Actually the barriers were open the other end. On my return I just said that I had come across the footbridge and was let through the barrier.
 

MG11

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I thought we had established that!

So a refusal to allow people to merely cross, rather than travel, may be acceptable and legal, however inconvenient.

It would depend on what was agreed between the relevant parties at the time of the public funding of the footbridge extension referred to by a previous post. I suspect nothing was set out because, at that time, no one thought it an issue! Manual ticket barriers had been done away with at Sheffield (and many other stations) with no thought that they would ever return - manual or otherwise. I know they existed at Sheffield because I got caught by them, in the 1980's. Trying to travel on a West Yorkshire Day Ticket into Sheffield to then buy a South Yorkshire Day Ticket - I wasn't trying to avoid the fare, merely trying to avoid alighting at the boundary station to buy one. Had to buy a single from the boundary to Sheffield and then buy my day ticket at the ticket office!
I grew up in that area and in the late nineties and early noughties, I never noticed a ticket check. My father actually used to buy our tickets on the train as standard. Times have changed now though and I really respect TOCS' desires to protect revenue.
 

Baxenden Bank

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It's a good idea to at least endeavour to buy one or at some Network Rail stations you can actually sign in
Agreed, and used to be essential.

Unlike in a shop where you have to pick something up to be accused of theft, stealing a journey is more complex and you could well find yourself in trouble
Pick it up, put it in your pocket, take it out again, put it back on the shelf (undamaged). Not a lot they can do about it except follow you round at one foot distance. The contract is made at the till, the offence is committed on leaving the premises.
 
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