The Dispatchers Whistle

CentralTrainer · 24 Mar 2018

Was thinking aloud today sat at Birmingham Snow Hill - when should a dispatcher sound their whistle. Should it be at a set gap before enforcing the door closure procedure?

Only reason I ask - observed a service engaging the door closure procedure - after the doors had started to close to lock - the Platform member sounded the whistle for the only time.

Consequently - two passengers I’d seen sat there (without any announcements of the next service actually arriving) sprinted across the platform after realising their service was about to depart - being refused boarding by said Platform staff

RailUK Forums

pt_mad · 24 Mar 2018

Whistle isn't an official part of the dispatch procedure .It is used as a prompt only. A whistle isn't required at all. Handsignals and or a lamp at night or during poor visibility are all that are required.

So staff can either whistle once, twice, three times, more, or not at all. All are within the set rules.

Passengers can't rely on hearing a whistle to warn them they must board a service. They need to themselves ensure they are on the platform in good time. As at hundreds of unstaffed stations the guard will just dispatch by themselves and no whistle will be used. Also with driver only trains no whistle will be sounded where the driver dispatches alone.

tsr · 24 Mar 2018

The whistle is basically a precursor to or an emphasis of the hustle alarm. It’s compulsory or recommended at certain TOCs and not others.

Generally it’s regarded as being used to warn passengers to keep clear of the train and/or make sure they are fully onboard and clear of the doors.

Some TOCs explicitly forbid blowing the whistle before the starter signal at the end of the platform (if applicable) is cleared, to prevent anybody thinking they need to start the dispatch procedure in error.

rg177 · 24 Mar 2018

And then at Kings Cross last August I had the platform staff blasting their whistles at 14:04 for the 14:08 departure which made me panic as I thought my phone's clock was slow, but no...they were using it to make people hurry up.

pt_mad · 24 Mar 2018

Which TOCs is it compulsory at? Surely a guard at a small town station isn't going to blow a whistle for the dispatch at 10pm?

The whistle isn't in the rule book anyway. So I would assume that where any incidents occurred, non use or use of the whistle could not be blamed or held against the staff.

Sprinter153 · 24 Mar 2018

pt_mad said:
Which TOCs is it compulsory at? Surely a guard at a small town station isn't going to blow a whistle for the dispatch at 10pm?

The whistle isn't in the rule book anyway. So I would assume that where any incidents occurred, non use or use of the whistle could not be blamed or held against the staff.

It is compulsory at GWR and listed in their Appendix to the Rule Book.

However some Guards Competence Managers will fail candidates who don't use their whistle and some won't.

theironroad · 24 Mar 2018

Pretty sure it's compulsory on swr and certainly in the past some managers went to great lengths to try and catch out guards who weren't .

It's a bit daft late at night on an empty platform when no-one has got off the train and no-one is even on the platform, but hey ho.

TEW · 24 Mar 2018

theironroad said:
Pretty sure it's compulsory on swr and certainly in the past some managers went to great lengths to try and catch out guards who weren't .

It's a bit daft late at night on an empty platform when no-one has got off the train and no-one is even on the platform, but hey ho.

It certainly is compulsory on SWR.

FGW_DID · 24 Mar 2018

Can’t remember if it was compulsory but it was certainly encouraged but only when there was a proceed aspect on the starter.

185143 · 24 Mar 2018

Last time I boarded a train at Liverpool Street, the dispatcher(s) were agressively blowing whistles at passengers SEVEN minutes before departure. Knowing I had 5 minutes until the doors even began to be closed (I assume it's 2 minutes before like at Euston) I carried on wandering up the platform until I found a coach that had some free seats in it. The staff were not impressed!

Was funny seeing them get wound up over literally nothing though!

Did I impede the prompt and safe departure of that service in any way? No. Did my refusal to board into a rammed vestibule and instead find a seat further up cause any issues? No. Was very odd!

Urban Gateline · 25 Mar 2018

I'm in agreement with only using the whistle once the signal is at proceed aspect/off indicator illuminated, provided that is the case then I start using the whistle 1min before departure to hurry passengers up, again at 45sec before to warn that doors will close shortly and then finally at 30sec before to reinforce the "CD" and tip given to the Guard provided that the PTI is clear.

I find the whistle very effective to get people boarding promptly and certainly at major stations with assisted dispatch it makes the dispatch process more efficient.

Mintona · 25 Mar 2018

In the 16 months I worked as a dispatcher, I probably blew the whistle 4 times. It wasn’t mandatory and it just wasn’t the done thing at my station.

Lem · 25 Mar 2018

I was a dispatcher for a little under 2 years. We had to blow the whistle 50seconds before departure, and again at 35/40 to then give CD anywhere up to 30 seconds before departure and give extra whistles if needed

sarahj · 25 Mar 2018

When I'm working trains I blow my whistle just before I start the doors close procedure. I do it out of habit. It's also used to warn folks to stand clear of the train as they wander down the platform, 1cm from the edge of the train just before I board and give the RTS signal. Some of my colleagues use a whistle, some don't, I just feel it's safer. It also helps hustle a few along who seem to have other things to do rather than board the sodding train. The only time you get the evil look when you blow it, is when folks are queuing happily to board at one door, while the other 5 are free and it's past time to go. When I'm doing OBS work, I of course blow nothing and say nothing, nowt to do with me, signals are just nice shiny things at the end of the platform, and once the platform is scanned for wheelchairs, etc, that's it. tho i still get cursed for closing the door on folks and leaving them behind. Not me guv'

gimmea50anyday · 25 Mar 2018

the use of the whistle is encouraged with TPE but as previously stated is not mandatory as per the rulebook. It is used pre-hustle to encourage people to board as the train doors will shortly close. It is also used to acknowlege tips to and from despatch staff and as a warning to attract attention.

MG11 · 26 Mar 2018

sarahj said:
When I'm working trains I blow my whistle just before I start the doors close procedure. I do it out of habit. It's also used to warn folks to stand clear of the train as they wander down the platform, 1cm from the edge of the train just before I board and give the RTS signal. Some of my colleagues use a whistle, some don't, I just feel it's safer. It also helps hustle a few along who seem to have other things to do rather than board the sodding train. The only time you get the evil look when you blow it, is when folks are queuing happily to board at one door, while the other 5 are free and it's past time to go. When I'm doing OBS work, I of course blow nothing and say nothing, nowt to do with me, signals are just nice shiny things at the end of the platform, and once the platform is scanned for wheelchairs, etc, that's it. tho i still get cursed for closing the door on folks and leaving them behind. Not me guv'

Ignore the evil look, you cannot base your day on evil looks.

whhistle · 26 Mar 2018

185143 said:
Last time I boarded a train at Liverpool Street, the dispatcher(s) were agressively blowing whistles at passengers SEVEN minutes before departure.

I've seen platform staff use the whistle purely for getting attention, much like lifeguards do.
While I wasn't there at the time, I highly suspect they wern't hurrying people into coaches 7 minutes in advance...

theironroad · 26 Mar 2018

whhistle said:
I've seen platform staff use the whistle purely for getting attention, much like lifeguards do.
While I wasn't there at the time, I highly suspect they wern't hurrying people into coaches 7 minutes in advance...

+1

The one I love is people walking down a platform with 10 mins before departure and a train is being dispatched with whistles a couple of platforms away and the person with 10 mins to go starts running to the nearest door.

pt_mad · 26 Mar 2018

Yeah whistles could be used to attract a person's attention if they are standing too close to a platform edge. In theory the signal could still be at danger at that time. So whether that's permitted I don't know.

Out of interest, with whistles being used pre hustle, what would happen if a dispatcher or guard blew a whistle and someone started to run and fell? Is the member of staff blamed? Are they supposed to tell any passengers running to walk? Running certainly looks to be permitted if the train is due away but what if there was an accident?

Christmas · 26 Mar 2018

pt_mad said:
Which TOCs is it compulsory at? Surely a guard at a small town station isn't going to blow a whistle for the dispatch at 10pm?

The whistle isn't in the rule book anyway. So I would assume that where any incidents occurred, non use or use of the whistle could not be blamed or held against the staff.

Owing to an increase in door trap incidents, Scotrail managers issued instructions for all guards to blow their whistles at all stations prior to closing the doors. So if there happened to be another door trap incident, the guard would be disciplined if it was found that they had not blown their whistle.

Again, local instructions. Perhaps other members (The uninformed) might think I have made this up since nobody told them.

jon0844 · 26 Mar 2018

theironroad said:
+1

The one I love is people walking down a platform with 10 mins before departure and a train is being dispatched with whistles a couple of platforms away and the person with 10 mins to go starts running to the nearest door.

Then there are those that panic when the hustle alarm goes before the doors close for the air conditioning but aren't locked. Plenty of people seen running for a train staying at a station for 5 minutes or so...

pt_mad · 27 Mar 2018

Christmas said:
Owing to an increase in door trap incidents, Scotrail managers issued instructions for all guards to blow their whistles at all stations prior to closing the doors. So if there happened to be another door trap incident, the guard would be disciplined if it was found that they had not blown their whistle.

Again, local instructions. Perhaps other members (The uninformed) might think I have made this up since nobody told them.

Bet that goes down well with the neighbours at suburban stations at 2345.

Still couldn't imagine anyone actually being disciplined for not doing it. The union would probably be all over it as the fact it isn't in the rule book and not required on most TOCs suggests that it is not required for safe dispatch as does the use of DOO including on ScotRail.

ComUtoR · 27 Mar 2018

pt_mad said:
Still couldn't imagine anyone actually being g disciplined for not doing it.

You can, and should, be disciplined for it.

The union would probably be all over it as the fact it isn't in the rule book

The Rule Book doesn't stand alone. Each TOC has their own rules, policies and regulations that MUST also be followed. The Union would lose and case it tried to defend. There have been a few notorious cases where the rule book may have been followed but the TOC policy has been violated. This is still a serious breach and disciplinary action is justifiable.

and not required on most TOCs suggestions it is only an option as regards safety.

Most ? That certainly has not been the implication. Also, certainly not 'optional' in some cases. Even in the post you quoted stated clearly that this is an instruction. Ergo not 'optional'

TOCs are required to have a 'safety case' and various safety policies and procedures. The Rule Book is a generic set of rules for everyone and each TOC will then have bespoke rules and polices they need to implement to ensure the safe running of the railway. There are also various and indeed numerous Group Standards that are required too.

pt_mad · 27 Mar 2018

ComUtoR said:
You can, and should, be disciplined for it.

The Rule Book doesn't stand alone. Each TOC has their own rules, policies and regulations that MUST also be followed. The Union would lose and case it tried to defend. There have been a few notorious cases where the rule book may have been followed but the TOC policy has been violated. This is still a serious breach and disciplinary action is justifiable.

Most ? That certainly has not been the implication. Also, certainly not 'optional' in some cases. Even in the post you quoted stated clearly that this is an instruction. Ergo not 'optional'

TOCs are required to have a 'safety case' and various safety policies and procedures. The Rule Book is a generic set of rules for everyone and each TOC will then have bespoke rules and polices they need to implement to ensure the safe running of the railway. There are also various and indeed numerous Group Standards that are required too.

But how can you have a TOC such as ScotRail saying a whistle is mandatory for a safe dispatch and must be used, and then at the same time run routes DCO where no whistles are ever likely to be used?

Is this not a safe dispatch then?

ComUtoR · 27 Mar 2018

pt_mad said:
Bit how can you have a TOC such as ScotRail saying a whistle is nandamand for a safe dispatch and must be used, and then at the same time run routes DOO where no whistles are ever kikell to be used?

In short, Policy.

You can't have one rule for every location. Each location has its own bespoke 'dispatch plan' and procedures that need and must be adhered to. DOO is a seperate entity altogether but essentially there are different rules and requirements for DOO just as there are for Staff dispatch.

pt_mad · 27 Mar 2018

ComUtoR said:
In short, Policy.

You can't have one rule for every location. Each location has its own bespoke 'dispatch plan' and procedures that need and must be adhered to. DOO is a seperate entity altogether but essentially there are different rules and requirements for DOO just as there are for Staff dispatch.

Saying policy is just like saying the reason is because the company says so it's not actually answering how blowing a whistle during dispatch is mandatory at all times and is fully necessary and yet they say DCO at some of the same stations is fully safe with no whistles or verbal warnings.

This is surely why the whistle isn't in the rule book, because unions would say surely DCO is questioned as unsafe if a whistle is mandatory.

ComUtoR · 27 Mar 2018

pt_mad said:
Saying policy is just like saying the reason is because the company says so

Each TOC is required to have some form of dispatch policy. Each TOC must have a safety case. Staff are required to follow that policy. Very much so the staff are required to as part of their responsibilities and yes, because they company said so.

it's not actually answering how blowing a whistle during dispatch is mandatory at all times

Without trying to create a circular argument. It is mandatory because the TOC requires it. Are you suggesting that employees should ignore their company policy ? The rule book is not to be taken in isolation and there are many many regulations that each TOC must adhere too. If you forget the rule book for a second. How does a TOC determine what is safe at each station ?

and is fully necessary and yet they say DCO at some of the same stations is fully safe with no whistles or verbal warnings.

Because there is other equipment in place. When I am DOO, I dispatch my train using DOO rules and regs and the Driving policy set out by my TOC. When I get dispatched by staff using Bat n Flag or CD/RA the platform staff need to adhere their procedures. Each has its own independent safety requirements. You shouldn't conflate the two.

This is surely why the whistle isn't in the rule book, because unions would say surely DCO is questioned as unsafe if a whistle is mandatory.

The rule book serves its purpose and is very generic. Some time back the rule books went through a very long process to be more streamlined and to allow each TOC a more bespoke approach. One rule really does not fit all. The TOCs each have their own rule book supplements, which, is where the rule books states 'refer to local instructions etc' The whistle isn't in the rule book because it allows each TOC to decide what is best for their locations. How would you dispatch a DOO train if a whistle was required at all times ?

The rule book is just a single set of rules. I'm not sure why you are so focused on it when there are many more over arching rules and regs.

pt_mad · 27 Mar 2018

You asked how would you dispatch a DOO train if a whistle was required at all times? Answer is, you wouldn't be able to. Hence the whistle is not required in the general sense which is my point.

Do any of us believe that a TOC enforces guards at all suburban and rural stations to blow a whistle during every dispatch at all times of the day and night? What about overnight services? Do they actually do it? Somewhere I know had residents complaining about tannoys announcing trains after 9pm to the point the volume was almost switched off, nevermind whistles blowing.

mallard · 28 Mar 2018

At Leicester, it's common for platform staff to start blowing their whistle like an angry PE teacher the moment the doors open. I've always though this is far more likely to cause someone to panic and injure themselves than it is to have any discernable effect on boarding time.

Seems to have no relation whatsoever to "dispatching" the train...

adamello · 29 Mar 2018

pt_mad said:
You asked how would you dispatch a DOO train if a whistle was required at all times? Answer is, you wouldn't be able to. Hence the whistle is not required in the general sense which is my point.

I think you are being picky for the sake of it, Common sense suggests that TOC's that put in policy that a wistle during dispatch is mandatory, is to be applied, when the train is being dispatched by a Guard / Platform Staff. This will be a seperate policy to the dispatch procedure when the train is operating DOC at an unmanned station.
To me ComUtoR made this perfectly clear, and at any point, no one has inferred that DOC dispatch has to include the whistle

The Dispatchers Whistle

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