Thameslink core ATO into use

falcon · 27 Mar 2018

I have been told by someone that a train ran in public service without a driver yesterday on the UK rail network.
Does anyone know if it is true?

RailUK Forums

Domh245 · 27 Mar 2018

More accurately, a train ran through the Thameslink core using Automatic Train Operation - the driver was still there, but they weren't driving the train, just pressing the button to make it go.

ComUtoR · 27 Mar 2018

ATO through 'The Core' Driver still up the front and only automatic through a small, yet significant, section.

hexagon789 · 27 Mar 2018

falcon said:
I have been told by someone that a train ran in public service without a driver yesterday on the UK rail network.
Does anyone know if it is true?

I wouldn't have thought on the National Rail network, but the Glasgow Subway is going over to fully automated and driverless operation after the new stock is introduced.

Edit: you are correct

The 09:46 Peterborough to Horsham went into ATO (Automatic Train Operation) mode yesterday with about 150 passengers on board.

Article here:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....self-drive-train-launched-mainline-track/amp/

GW43125 · 27 Mar 2018

I was told that a Brighton-Bedford trialled ATO last Saturday (17th) in service. Is this not true then?

hexagon789 · 27 Mar 2018

Mind you, it wasn't driverless in the true sense, the train simply was driven automatically, there was still a driver at the controls.

Domh245 · 27 Mar 2018

GW43125 said:
I was told that a Brighton-Bedford trialled ATO last Saturday (17th) in service. Is this not true then?

That one might have been the first running on ETCS rather than the colour light signals - if it had been the first ATO service you'd have expected a bit of fanfare

pt_mad · 27 Mar 2018

What is the reason for this then? Is the computer deemed to be more reliable than a human driver?

Surely unless the plan is to remove the driver altogether, there would be no point, as you'd still need to provide a fully qualified driver to sit and observe and they may as well drive in the traditional sense.

hexagon789 · 27 Mar 2018

ComUtoR said:
ATO through 'The Core' Driver still up the front and only automatic through a small, yet significant, section.

I assume ATO is only going to be used in the Core and a driver will still be present though?

GW43125 · 27 Mar 2018

Domh245 said:
That one might have been the first running on ETCS rather than the colour light signals - if it had been the first ATO service you'd have expected a bit of fanfare

I was definitely told ATO (I checked the email)
Saturday 17th March, 700019
1W11 1W22 2W39 2W48 1W55 1W66

I'm sure someone here will know better than I do (I know nothing!).

hexagon789 · 27 Mar 2018

pt_mad said:
What is the reason for this then? Is the computer deemed to be more reliable than a human driver?

Surely unless the plan is to remove the driver altogether, there would be no point, as you'd still need to provide a fully qualified driver to sit and observe and they may as well drive in the traditional sense.

I believe this is to allow 2 minute headways in the Core section.

GW43125 · 27 Mar 2018

pt_mad said:
What is the reason for this then? Is the computer deemed to be more reliable than a human driver?

Surely unless the plan is to remove the driver altogether, there would be no point, as you'd still need to provide a fully qualified driver to sit and observe and they may as well drive in the traditional sense.

Drivers drive defensively, computers don't.

I think the reason for it is so that the few seconds usually lost through slack or defensive driving aren't.
After all, at 24tph, if each train loses just 5 seconds, that's a path gone.

ComUtoR · 27 Mar 2018

hexagon789 said:
I assume ATO is only going to be used in the Core and a driver will still be present though?

So far yes, although I have heard it will be extended to London Bridge. The Driver is still required to be present and still closes the doors and puts it back into ATO after each station.

GW43125 · 27 Mar 2018

ComUtoR said:
So far yes, although I have heard it will be extended to London Bridge. The Driver is still required to be present and still closes the doors and puts it back into ATO after each station.

If memory serves, there was a document posted in one of the threads citing the limits as something along the lines of Elephant & Castle or London Bridge new flyover in the south, and just before Dock Jn (near Kentish Town) or at the top of Canal Tunnels in the north.

hexagon789 · 27 Mar 2018

ComUtoR said:
So far yes, although I have heard it will be extended to London Bridge. The Driver is still required to be present and still closes the doors and puts it back into ATO after each station.

So broadly the same set up as the Glasgow Subway at present. Driver opens/closes doors and presses Auto Start, train maintains target speed and brakes for stations itself based on the ATO system.

ComUtoR · 27 Mar 2018

GW43125 said:
If memory serves, there was a document posted in one of the threads citing the limits as something along the lines of Elephant & Castle or London Bridge new flyover in the south, and just before Dock Jn (near Kentish Town) or at the top of Canal Tunnels in the north.

Correct, those are currently the limits. You can see the lineside signage for it at each location, you can also see the balises'

ComUtoR · 27 Mar 2018

hexagon789 said:
So broadly the same set up as the Glasgow Subway at present. Driver opens/closes doors and presses Auto Start, train maintains target speed and brakes for stations itself based on the ATO system.

The doors automatically open. The Driver closes them and restarts the ATO. I'm not 100% on ATO at the moment as it is still very much at the testing and commissioning stages. Drivers briefs and full operation is about a year away still.

Robertj21a · 27 Mar 2018

Accepting that it's the Tube, not National Rail, hasn't the Victoria line been automated (with a driver in attendance) ever since it was new ? [Quite apart from the newer DLR]

pt_mad · 27 Mar 2018

GW43125 said:
Drivers drive defensively, computers don't.

I think the reason for it is so that the few seconds usually lost through slack or defensive driving aren't.
After all, at 24tph, if each train loses just 5 seconds, that's a path gone.

Please excuse this but what is driving defensively?

Also who dispatches the train in this mode?

And what is ASLEF's opinion on ATO?

greyman42 · 27 Mar 2018

Robertj21a said:
Accepting that it's the Tube, not National Rail, hasn't the Victoria line been automated (with a driver in attendance) ever since it was new ? [Quite apart from the newer DLR]

I was under the impression that parts of the Underground had ran like this for some time. Could someone with more expertise on the Underground confirm this or correct me.

ANorthernGuard · 27 Mar 2018

ASLE&F will be looking very very closely at this as this just like with the DCO/DOO dispute (for the RMT) would cost them membership in the not so distant future.

Guard Only Operation, anyone? :lol:

GW43125 · 27 Mar 2018

Robertj21a said:
Accepting that it's the Tube, not National Rail, hasn't the Victoria line been automated (with a driver in attendance) ever since it was new ? [Quite apart from the newer DLR]

Yes, Victoria Line has been supervised ATO since its opening in 1968.

pt_mad said:
1) Please excuse this but what is driving defensively?

2) Also who dispatches the train in this mode?

3) And what is ASLEF's opinion on ATO?

1) For example, if there's a yellow or speed limit up ahead, defensive driving involves slowing down early. The computer won't do that, instead braking later (but not stupidly late).

2) The driver has overall responsibility for checking the platform and cameras, shutting the doors and starting the train. Though in the core I believe they use CD/RA indicators operated by platform staff. I think someone who knows more than me needs to confirm.

3)Pass.

ComUtoR · 27 Mar 2018

GW43125 said:
Though in the core I believe they use CD/RA indicators operated by platform staff. I think someone who knows more than me needs to confirm.

DOO through 'The Core'

Bletchleyite · 27 Mar 2018

pt_mad said:
Please excuse this but what is driving defensively?

Not driving to the full ability of the unit, in order to give some leeway for human error. A computer, however, provided it is programmed correctly, cannot make a human error (nor can anyone else if all trains are ATO) and therefore does not need to take account of this.

In contrast, in Germany it is usual to use a "positive braking" technique - starting braking from linespeed very late on and stopping hard but perfectly positioned, often even in a bay platform. Quite a contrast - and quite a skill - but not much room for human error. A computer can of course do that safely.

ANorthernGuard said:
ASLE&F will be looking very very closely at this as this just like with the DCO/DOO dispute (for the RMT) would cost them membership in the not so distant future. GOO anyone lol

It is my genuine view that GOO is the future (20 year horizon or thereabouts) of the UK network, not DOO. I don't think the typical British public are well-behaved enough for genuine no-staff operation.

(The "guards" would be like DLR train captains in being trained to drive at low speed in emergency, but would spend most of the time doing day to day guard stuff, i.e. doors/dispatch and tickets, and would be safety critical).

pt_mad · 27 Mar 2018

GW43125 said:
Yes, Victoria Line has been supervised ATO since its opening in 1968.

1) For example, if there's a yellow or speed limit up ahead, defensive driving involves slowing down early. The computer won't do that, instead braking later (but not stupidly late).

2) The driver has overall responsibility for checking the platform and cameras, shutting the doors and starting the train. Though in the core I believe they use CD/RA indicators operated by platform staff. I think someone who knows more than me needs to confirm.

3)Pass.

Will the computer treat one yellow as 'caution, reduce speed and prepare to stop at the next signal. Next signal displays a red', as a driver would? Or does it anticipate that if it's had three yellows in succession that they will either be pulled off or cleared as they are following sonerhsom at the same speed etc? Which I believe is frowned upon from actual human drivers?

You would surely think ASLEF would be against this as it could threaten their whole membership over the next 50 years at a guess?

Also will the public be asked their opinion in the National Rail Passenger Surveys?

AM9 · 27 Mar 2018

Bletchleyite said:
... It is my genuine view that GOO is the future (20 year horizon or thereabouts) of the UK network, not DOO. I don't think the typical British public are well-behaved enough for genuine no-staff operation.

(The "guards" would be like DLR train captains in being trained to drive at low speed in emergency, but would spend most of the time doing day to day guard stuff, i.e. doors/dispatch and tickets, and would be safety critical).

So maybe the TOCs might try for 'Train Manager Only Operation ' (TMOO), even supplementing it with 'Revenue Protection Only Operation' (RPOO) over short sections. :rolleyes:

Dave1987 · 27 Mar 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Not driving to the full ability of the unit, in order to give some leeway for human error. A computer, however, provided it is programmed correctly, cannot make a human error (nor can anyone else if all trains are ATO) and therefore does not need to take account of this.

In contrast, in Germany it is usual to use a "positive braking" technique - starting braking from linespeed very late on and stopping hard but perfectly positioned, often even in a bay platform. Quite a contrast - and quite a skill - but not much room for human error. A computer can of course do that safely.

It is my genuine view that GOO is the future (20 year horizon or thereabouts) of the UK network, not DOO. I don't think the typical British public are well-behaved enough for genuine no-staff operation.

(The "guards" would be like DLR train captains in being trained to drive at low speed in emergency, but would spend most of the time doing day to day guard stuff, i.e. doors/dispatch and tickets, and would be safety critical).

Actually defensive driving techniques came in when activations of the TPWS became a serious incident. Drivers are trained to always be on the safe side to ensure the TPWS isn’t needed and so therefore is only there to ensure a dangerous situation does not happen.

Your driverless utopia is a long long long long way off I’m afraid

Bromley boy · 27 Mar 2018

Bletchleyite said:
It is my genuine view that GOO is the future (20 year horizon or thereabouts) of the UK network, not DOO.

You genuinely believe the whole mainline network will be fully ATO to the level of the DLR in as little as 20 years from now?

Semaphore signals are projected to be around until 2050 or so in places, as I understand it, on parts of the network...

Dave1987 · 27 Mar 2018

Wow, one train operates under ATO for a small section in the middle of the London core and suddenly people are plotting the demise of train drivers. Gotta love this forum at times.

Domh245 · 27 Mar 2018

pt_mad said:
Will the computer treat one yellow as 'caution, reduce speed and prepare to stop at the next signal. Next signal displays a red', as a driver would? Or does it anticipate that if it's had three yellows in succession that they will either be pulled off or cleared as they are following sonerhsom at the same speed etc? Which I believe is frowned upon from actual human drivers?

The computer doesn't know about the existence of signals at all. It gets a signal from the Balises every time it passes over one that tell the train how far it is allowed to move (it's 'movement authority') which is basically the distance to the rear of the next train + a small safety margin, generated by the ETCS signalling system. It then uses that information to drive as quickly as it can, braking at just the right time to stop at the edge of it's movement authority - presumably utilising sensors that tell the train how heavy it is (and adjusts it's braking point for the different braking performance to suit), what the gradients are like (ie can it brake later because it's going uphill), etc.

*Presuming that this ato installation is like almost every other one in the world

Thameslink core ATO into use

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