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EMT and First Class.

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cactustwirly

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This crops up on Twitter often and the team always state that the capacity is needed during peak times.

Really? Most of the time 1st is empty and standard is rammed, which is one reason why I try and avoid meridians.

It really means that it isn't really used, but EMT can't be bothered converting the excess 1st to Standard.
 

MG11

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Really? Most of the time 1st is empty and standard is rammed, which is one reason why I try and avoid meridians.

It really means that it isn't really used, but EMT can't be bothered converting the excess 1st to Standard.
Not sure what they are like in the mornings when they run from Nottingham, as where I go from in Derby, they use HSTs for the early morning services. They do seem to price Advance 1st class tickets incredibly low on the 7 coach trains during the day though, the 12:29 SHF-STP has upgrades available for just £3-4 in difference, barely even covers the cost of the complimentary tea!
 

Dr Hoo

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Really? Most of the time 1st is empty and standard is rammed, which is one reason why I try and avoid meridians.

It really means that it isn't really used, but EMT can't be bothered converting the excess 1st to Standard.
As someone who uses the MML quite a lot (and gets regular feedback from family and friends who also use it) it seems to vary. I am often struck by how heavily southbound trains are reserved in First (especially ones via Derby) but how many seats in 7-car Meridian First are unreserved from St Pancras later in the day. I presume that this is because people are unsure what time they might return, so they may buy a Standard open ticket. There are usually a few upgrades sold, which must bring in a few quid (even as I type on this evening's journey).
 

MG11

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As someone who uses the MML quite a lot (and gets regular feedback from family and friends who also use it) it seems to vary. I am often struck by how heavily southbound trains are reserved in First (especially ones via Derby) but how many seats in 7-car Meridian First are unreserved from St Pancras later in the day. I presume that this is because people are unsure what time they might return, so they may buy a Standard open ticket. There are usually a few upgrades sold, which must bring in a few quid (even as I type on this evening's journey).
Upgrading on board is only usually allowed at weekends, are you referring to customers upgrading at the ticket office?
 

bb21

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You can upgrade onboard on EMT I believe on weekdays. There is a fixed upgrade for each destination unless that changed recently. Last I was aware of it was £9(?) to Bedford/Luton, and increasing for stations further out (£43 for Leicester). It may have changed now.
 

Dr Hoo

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Upgrading on board is only usually allowed at weekends, are you referring to customers upgrading at the ticket office?
Without getting too bogged down in the niceties of 'upgrades', 'excess fares' and what-have-you it is routinely a case of the Customer Host advising the Train Manager that the "gentleman in seat F30 wants an upgrade" or writing seat numbers on a napkin and handing it over. Perfectly normal in my experience.
 

MG11

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Without getting too bogged down in the niceties of 'upgrades', 'excess fares' and what-have-you it is routinely a case of the Customer Host advising the Train Manager that the "gentleman in seat F30 wants an upgrade" or writing seat numbers on a napkin and handing it over. Perfectly normal in my experience.
Until very recently, East Midlands Trains advised on their website that travelling in First on a Standard ticket could result in a Penalty Fare, I've been trying to find a link to the page but it seems to have disappeared.
 

LowLevel

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Until very recently, East Midlands Trains advised on their website that travelling in First on a Standard ticket could result in a Penalty Fare, I've been trying to find a link to the page but it seems to have disappeared.

On-board upgrades have always been available. Revenue protection in first (at least during the week) is generally solid with the customer host always checking travel documents before serving.
 

whhistle

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You might think it's hugely important. I think you're incorrect.
Not that I said "it's hugely important", and you are incorrect in thinking that I think it is.
I simply offered a reason why it might be at the London end.

If the TOC wanted to, they would move stock around to ensure reversals happen to put First Class at the London end of the train. But like much in this franchise, they seem to be neglecting the basics. It's almost like they don't think they're going to win in 2019...
 

yorksrob

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Keep 1st class at the country end of the train I say. Just because having it at the London end is tradition, doesn't make it best.
 

talltim

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Country end suits me. It means that when the trains stop in platform 1 at Chesterfield, I (And everyone else) don’t have to walk past three coaches of first to get on...
 

Domh245

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Keep 1st class at the country end of the train I say. Just because having it at the London end is tradition, doesn't make it best.

Country end first class is a nuisance if you are doing Nottingham - St Pancras though - it's the furthest away end from the gateline at both stations!
 

cactustwirly

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Not sure what they are like in the mornings when they run from Nottingham, as where I go from in Derby, they use HSTs for the early morning services. They do seem to price Advance 1st class tickets incredibly low on the 7 coach trains during the day though, the 12:29 SHF-STP has upgrades available for just £3-4 in difference, barely even covers the cost of the complimentary tea!

Irrelevant, EMT don't offer first advances for any of the journies I use them for.
For some stupid reason, only STD advances are available if you travel beyond London.
 

43096

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If the TOC wanted to, they would move stock around to ensure reversals happen to put First Class at the London end of the train. But like much in this franchise, they seem to be neglecting the basics. It's almost like they don't think they're going to win in 2019...
As you obviously think you are an expert on this, please explain how they should do this given that reversals happen at Nottingham on the London-Leeds trains and also if a set arrives in Nottingham and then goes to Derby (as they do at start and end of day).
 

Timrud

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Also the master cutler in a morning does a loop, so its facing the opposite way to how it left the depot.

EMT is a fantastic TOC, but it can't do the impossible
 

mallard

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EMT is a fantastic TOC

Nice try EMT PR department! (That's meant as a joke in case it's not obvious.) While it's entirely understandable (to me at least) that EMT can't guarantee which way around their trains are going to be, the fact that they regularly record it wrong in whatever system powers the automated annoucements is a bigger problem. Still, it's one of the lesser things that make EMT an average-or-below TOC in my experience.
 

43096

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Nice try EMT PR department! (That's meant as a joke in case it's not obvious.) While it's entirely understandable (to me at least) that EMT can't guarantee which way around their trains are going to be, the fact that they regularly record it wrong in whatever system powers the automated annoucements is a bigger problem. Still, it's one of the lesser things that make EMT an average-or-below TOC in my experience.
As has been said before, I think they are now generally accurate with formation information - at least that is my experience in recent months.
 

whhistle

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As you obviously think you are an expert on this, please explain how they should do this given that reversals happen at Nottingham on the London-Leeds trains and also if a set arrives in Nottingham and then goes to Derby (as they do at start and end of day).
Didn't say I was an expert and can't see how you got that from what I wrote. I just said if the TOC wanted to, they could reverse the sets.
There's a triangle between Leicester/Derby/Nottingham. If EMT employed more drivers, they'd be able to turn the sets whenever line capacity allows. The line between Derby and Nottingham isn't exactly busy, and there's spare capacity around Loughborough for the driver to set up the other desk and get going again.

Alternatively, sort out why trains get reversed so easily and look at creating/getting rid of services to stop this happening.

It's all possible, but unlikely because it costs extra money.
 

Raul_Duke

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Didn't say I was an expert and can't see how you got that from what I wrote. I just said if the TOC wanted to, they could reverse the sets.
There's a triangle between Leicester/Derby/Nottingham. If EMT employed more drivers, they'd be able to turn the sets whenever line capacity allows. The line between Derby and Nottingham isn't exactly busy, and there's spare capacity around Loughborough for the driver to set up the other desk and get going again.

Alternatively, sort out why trains get reversed so easily and look at creating/getting rid of services to stop this happening.

It's all possible, but unlikely because it costs extra money.

That’s a lot of faffing just to get first class a few coaches closer to you.

You could bring back the free coffee for all for less than that would cost.
 

43096

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Didn't say I was an expert and can't see how you got that from what I wrote. I just said if the TOC wanted to, they could reverse the sets.
There's a triangle between Leicester/Derby/Nottingham. If EMT employed more drivers, they'd be able to turn the sets whenever line capacity allows. The line between Derby and Nottingham isn't exactly busy, and there's spare capacity around Loughborough for the driver to set up the other desk and get going again.

Alternatively, sort out why trains get reversed so easily and look at creating/getting rid of services to stop this happening.

It's all possible, but unlikely because it costs extra money.
I’ll just pick myself up off the floor as I’ve fallen about laughing...
 

edwin_m

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Didn't say I was an expert and can't see how you got that from what I wrote. I just said if the TOC wanted to, they could reverse the sets.
There's a triangle between Leicester/Derby/Nottingham. If EMT employed more drivers, they'd be able to turn the sets whenever line capacity allows. The line between Derby and Nottingham isn't exactly busy, and there's spare capacity around Loughborough for the driver to set up the other desk and get going again.

Alternatively, sort out why trains get reversed so easily and look at creating/getting rid of services to stop this happening.

It's all possible, but unlikely because it costs extra money.
True in principle, although the lines around Trent are a lot busier than you suggest. I was on a HST that turned on Lenton triangle many years ago, but that was because of some problem with driving it from one cab rather than to get the First at the right end.

But is it a sensible use of taxpayers' money? The franchise would reduce premium or demand extra subsidy if there was a requirement to keep all trains the right way round - there is negligible commercial benefit in doing so and a commercial company won't spend extra just from the goodness of their hearts.
 

DanTrain

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But is it a sensible use of taxpayers' money? The franchise would reduce premium or demand extra subsidy if there was a requirement to keep all trains the right way round - there is negligible commercial benefit in doing so and a commercial company won't spend extra just from the goodness of their hearts.
They'd put the ticket prices up, and I for one do not wish to pay more to have my train the right way round (and to then have to walk further from Standard at STP!)
 

Starmill

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You can upgrade onboard on EMT I believe on weekdays. There is a fixed upgrade for each destination unless that changed recently. Last I was aware of it was £9(?) to Bedford/Luton, and increasing for stations further out (£43 for Leicester). It may have changed now.
These are still in the data, ticket type BDU 'EMT 1ST UPGRADE'. £12.50 for Bedford to London St Pancras.

I am sure someone internal will know what policy is regarding selling them. Most train companies, including Virgin Trains and Virgin Trains East Coast, encourage people to upgrade on the train.
 

Steddenm

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I don't think there is anywhere on the GWR network where HSTs will routinely be reversed - even ECS between Bristol and Cheltenham or beyond (if such ever operates) will be the right way round in Paddington when reversal at Gloucester is taken into account. So the sets will probably all be the same way round in the depot, except after a diversion (and not even most of the most usual diversions).

There’s one at night that reverses at Bristol Temple Meads from Paddington to Cardiff. Runs ECS back to Bristol though so is the right way round in the morning.
 

bb21

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These are still in the data, ticket type BDU 'EMT 1ST UPGRADE'. £12.50 for Bedford to London St Pancras.

I am sure someone internal will know what policy is regarding selling them. Most train companies, including Virgin Trains and Virgin Trains East Coast, encourage people to upgrade on the train.
Common practice seems to be that you are asked if you would like to pay an upgrade by the hosts who check tickets, and TMs coming around later to collect the fares.

Not seen anyone threatened with nastiness yet if willing to pay an upgrade, even if checked by RPIs, so would say that company policy is likely to be one of allowing this after boarding without the need to seek permission first (which is contrary to Penalty Fares rules of course).
 

yorksrob

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I think that one area where EMT could decisively improve their offer, would be to bring back some of the more reasonably priced first class advance fares on a late evening from London on weekdays. These seem to have retreated to weekends over the past few years which is a shame. That said, similar seems to have happened to standard class fares on the ECML.
 
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