Railway Enthusiasts at Stations - is a clearer policy needed?

brick60000 · 27 Mar 2018

Hi all,

Two occurrences for myself at stations in recent months has got me thinking - is it time that the guidelines for railway enthusiasts were updated and a uniform approach across all TOCs was adopted?

I was at Clapham Junction several weeks ago, happily taking photos on a day trip to London when I was told by a cleaner (who rather amusingly attracted my attention whilst I had my eye down the viewfinder by waving her brush in the air) that I could not take photographs. I showed her the NRE guidelines and she disputed this, and radioed for a duty station manager. Upon his arrival, he then reinforced this message, disputing the NRE guidelines did not apply to this station / TOC / etc. I disputed this, he asked to look at photos I had already taken (I'd been there for about 30 mine already) and took me to his office. He said that he would give me permission to take photos, and I was then directed to a very friendly reception desk who gave me a station pass. No issues after this!

I write this having just been told at Birmingham Snow Hill that I'm not allowed to take photos without permission. I was taking several photographs of their new liveried 172, and had been there for around 10-15 mins. I was catching a train 2-3 mins later, and would not have had time to sign in etc.

Is it not futile trying to prevent single photographs in the age of camera phones? It is not possible, whatever the policy, to prevent people from taking a snap for their story, or whatever it may be.

Is it time that an up to date policy was published, with clear guidelines as to exactly what is expected of anyone taking photos at railway stations? The confusion that results from the lack of clarity at present (in my opinion, at least) seems to be the cause of many a dispute and ties up railway staffs time when it could be spent dealing with more pressing issues .

What does everyone else think?

RailUK Forums

hexagon789 · 27 Mar 2018

brick60000 said:
Hi all,

Two occurrences for myself at stations in recent months has got me thinking - is it time that the guidelines for railway enthusiasts were updated and a uniform approach across all TOCs was adopted?

I was at Clapham Junction several weeks ago, happily taking photos on a day trip to London when I was told by a cleaner (who rather amusingly attracted my attention whilst I had my eye down the viewfinder by waving her brush in the air) that I could not take photographs. I showed her the NRE guidelines and she disputed this, and radioed for a duty station manager. Upon his arrival, he then reinforced this message, disputing the NRE guidelines did not apply to this station / TOC / etc. I disputed this, he asked to look at photos I had already taken (I'd been there for about 30 mine already) and took me to his office. He said that he would give me permission to take photos, and I was then directed to a very friendly reception desk who gave me a station pass. No issues after this!

I write this having just been told at Birmingham Snow Hill that I'm not allowed to take photos without permission. I was taking several photographs of their new liveried 172, and had been there for around 10-15 mins. I was catching a train 2-3 mins later, and would not have had time to sign in etc.

Is it not futile trying to prevent single photographs in the age of camera phones? It is not possible, whatever the policy, to prevent people from taking a snap for their story, or whatever it may be.

Is it time that an up to date policy was published, with clear guidelines as to exactly what is expected of anyone taking photos at railway stations? The confusion that results from the lack of clarity at present (in my opinion, at least) seems to be the cause of many a dispute and ties up railway staffs time when it could be spent dealing with more pressing issues .

What does everyone else think?

I agree it pretty pointless stopping people when many people have a camera phone.

As far as I'm aware they can't stop you unless you are taking photos of security related equipment.

AlterEgo · 27 Mar 2018

hexagon789 said:
I agree it pretty pointless stopping people when many people have a camera phone.

As far as I'm aware they can't stop you unless you are taking photos of security related equipment.

You can have your permission to take pictures on private property (which a station is, despite being at the same time a public place) revoked, entirely legally, at any time, for any reason, regardless of the policy.

Clip · 27 Mar 2018

Whilst i dont agree with being told that you cant take photographs at stations did you at any time follow the guidance you had waved at the cleaner and the manager? Because if you had then im guessing you would not have had much bpother would you?

NRE
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/51952.aspx

Before you enter the platform
At major stations please inform the Duty Station Manager of your presence. This will ensure that station staff are aware that you are on the station and they can go about their duties without concern as to your reasons for being there. At smaller stations you should ensure that you advise a member of the station staff of your activities. You may require a platform ticket to allow access to platforms.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/51952.aspx

BTP
http://www.btp.police.uk/advice_and_information/travel_advice/rail_enthusiasts.aspx

Before you enter the platform
Please speak to a member of station staff when you arrive so they are aware of your presence and what you are doing.

Please be aware of your surroundings. We kindly ask you to take note of any unusual behaviour and activities and report anything suspicious to us or a member of staff.

http://www.btp.police.uk/advice_and_information/travel_advice/rail_enthusiasts.aspx
Network Rail
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/commu...lway-enthusiasts-and-photography-at-stations/

We welcome rail enthusiasts and passengers who would like to take photos or film at our stations.
The following guidelines are designed to help you to have a safe and enjoyable experience. Please print them out and take them with you when you are at any of our managed stations.

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/commu...lway-enthusiasts-and-photography-at-stations/

Click on the quotes for the links.

hexagon789 · 27 Mar 2018

AlterEgo said:
You can have your permission to take pictures on private property (which a station is, despite being at the same time a public place) revoked, entirely legally, at any time, for any reason, regardless of the policy.

Does that include Network Rail-operated stations?

AlterEgo · 27 Mar 2018

hexagon789 said:
Does that include Network Rail-operated stations?

Yes. You can only take pictures on private property like Network Rail stations with permission.

In almost all cases permission is implicit, like the ability to walk on and photograph unchallenged.

But they may, legally, unilaterally withdraw that permission from you for any reason. They do have the right to tell you to sling your hook, even if that is not a good, friendly or welcoming thing to do.

hexagon789 · 27 Mar 2018

AlterEgo said:
Yes. You can only take pictures on private property like Network Rail stations with permission.

In almost all cases permission is implicit, like the ability to walk on and photograph unchallenged.

But they may, legally, unilaterally withdraw that permission from you for any reason. They do have the right to tell you to sling your hook, even if that is not a good, friendly or welcoming thing to do.

Thanks for the clarification, I'll bear that in mind

brick60000 · 27 Mar 2018

Clip said:
Whilst i dont agree with being told that you cant take photographs at stations did you at any time follow the guidance you had waved at the cleaner and the manager? Because if you had then im guessing you would not have had much bpother would you?

NRE

BTP
Network Rail

Click on the quotes for the links.

Admittedly, I should have spoken to somebody there. "Major stations" is vague, though. Whilst it may be obvious that Clapham is major, to somebody that rarely used Birmingham Snow Hill, this is a station that isn't obviously major to somebody visiting the area in the middle of the day (not myself, but many others, I'm sure!). It's a rather vague term that is open for confusion .

I'd dispute that I wouldn't have had bother. As explained, I was told that NRE guidelines actually didn't apply there, and that I wasn't allowed to take photos, initially! So even if I had have gone to somebody on the platform, as I wouldn't have known where the office was until I was told, I'd have met this approach and been told a flat out no!

brick60000 · 27 Mar 2018

AlterEgo said:
Yes. You can only take pictures on private property like Network Rail stations with permission.

In almost all cases permission is implicit, like the ability to walk on and photograph unchallenged.

But they may, legally, unilaterally withdraw that permission from you for any reason. They do have the right to tell you to sling your hook, even if that is not a good, friendly or welcoming thing to do.

What would the approach be then if you were taking photos whilst waiting for a train?

bramling · 27 Mar 2018

AlterEgo said:
You can have your permission to take pictures on private property (which a station is, despite being at the same time a public place) revoked, entirely legally, at any time, for any reason, regardless of the policy.

This doesn't, however, give staff the right to make up their own rules and procedures just because they feel like being difficult.

AlterEgo · 27 Mar 2018

bramling said:
This doesn't, however, give staff the right to make up their own rules and procedures just because they feel like being difficult.

No, it doesn't - the cleaner would not have the authority to exclude a photographer anyway. Only the station manager or someone acting with their authority could do that.

AlterEgo · 27 Mar 2018

brick60000 said:
What would the approach be then if you were taking photos whilst waiting for a train?

You're allowed to do it unless prohibited by someone in a proper position of authority. See my post above.

Clip · 27 Mar 2018

brick60000 said:
Admittedly, I should have spoken to somebody there. "Major stations" is vague, though. Whilst it may be obvious that Clapham is major, to somebody that rarely used Birmingham Snow Hill, this is a station that isn't obviously major to somebody visiting the area in the middle of the day (not myself, but many others, I'm sure!). It's a rather vague term that is open for confusion .

I'd dispute that I wouldn't have had bother. As explained, I was told that NRE guidelines actually didn't apply there, and that I wasn't allowed to take photos, initially! So even if I had have gone to somebody on the platform, as I wouldn't have known where the office was until I was told, I'd have met this approach and been told a flat out no!

With all due respect anyone with an interest in railways should really know about network rail and their 'major stations' it' been a concept since railtrack I do believe.

You'e right the manager should'e known better but if you had followed the advice and signed in at reception (no idea which of the 3 toys managers stopped you) but at least you would'e been granted permission and hopefully got a visitors badue to show the cleaner which would've let you carry on.

As for snow Hill the station operator will have the same policy so again if you had let them know you were doin a bit of photting then I don' see any issues with carrying on by showing your badge to any staff members.

It' important that people as well as staff members knows their responsibilities and it seems in this case you both were in the wrong but one hasn' posted their disgust at their own lack of knowledge about being on the railway

Bromley boy · 27 Mar 2018

brick60000 said:
Hi all,

Two occurrences for myself at stations in recent months has got me thinking - is it time that the guidelines for railway enthusiasts were updated and a uniform approach across all TOCs was adopted?

I was at Clapham Junction several weeks ago, happily taking photos on a day trip to London when I was told by a cleaner (who rather amusingly attracted my attention whilst I had my eye down the viewfinder by waving her brush in the air) that I could not take photographs. I showed her the NRE guidelines and she disputed this, and radioed for a duty station manager. Upon his arrival, he then reinforced this message, disputing the NRE guidelines did not apply to this station / TOC / etc. I disputed this, he asked to look at photos I had already taken (I'd been there for about 30 mine already) and took me to his office. He said that he would give me permission to take photos, and I was then directed to a very friendly reception desk who gave me a station pass. No issues after this!

I write this having just been told at Birmingham Snow Hill that I'm not allowed to take photos without permission. I was taking several photographs of their new liveried 172, and had been there for around 10-15 mins. I was catching a train 2-3 mins later, and would not have had time to sign in etc.

Is it not futile trying to prevent single photographs in the age of camera phones? It is not possible, whatever the policy, to prevent people from taking a snap for their story, or whatever it may be.

Is it time that an up to date policy was published, with clear guidelines as to exactly what is expected of anyone taking photos at railway stations? The confusion that results from the lack of clarity at present (in my opinion, at least) seems to be the cause of many a dispute and ties up railway staffs time when it could be spent dealing with more pressing issues .

What does everyone else think?

To avoid issues I would always recommend (before photographing) going up to someone in authority (station manager, platform staff), make them aware of your presence and what you’d like to do.

Once you’ve done that just employ basic common sense: be discrete; don’t make a nuisance of yourself; don’t distract staff; don’t do anything dangerous, and you shouldn’t have any issues at all.

AlterEgo said:
Yes. You can only take pictures on private property like Network Rail stations with permission.

In almost all cases permission is implicit, like the ability to walk on and photograph unchallenged.

But they may, legally, unilaterally withdraw that permission from you for any reason. They do have the right to tell you to sling your hook, even if that is not a good, friendly or welcoming thing to do.

This.

trash80 · 27 Mar 2018

I've never signed in (and never had any trouble), when i arrive at a station it is by train anyway so i'm already on the platform. I don't really see the glee in going through the barriers just to try and hunt down the SM (who probably has a lot better things to do than talk to some fat old bloke). I always avoid being a nuisance e.g. not getting in the way of despatch and staying away from the edge.

greyman42 · 27 Mar 2018

So are people taking "selfies", which young people tend to do at every turn, going to get challenged?

Bromley boy · 27 Mar 2018

trash80 said:
I've never signed in (and never had any trouble), when i arrive at a station it is by train anyway so i'm already on the platform. I don't really see the glee in going through the barriers just to try and hunt down the SM (who probably has a lot better things to do than talk to some fat old bloke). I always avoid being a nuisance e.g. not getting in the way of despatch and staying away from the edge.

It’s not strictly necessary to “sign in” but it *may* avoid issues such as the OP experienced if you make staff aware of what you’re doing.

For individual photos with a phone I agree it’s hardly likely to be an issue. If you’re going to stand on the end of a platform for hours with a DSLR it’s a different matter (people standing in odd places, on bits of the platform where no trains stop, can cause concern for obvious reasons).

Islineclear3_1 · 27 Mar 2018

I have photographed at Clapham Junction on many occasions and platform staff regularly walk up and down keeping an eye on things etc. Often a simply friendly "hello" and not acting childish or suspiciously gives them some reassurance. Also, I don't use a tripod

martinr1 · 27 Mar 2018

I understand why transport officials can be nervous but I have not had any problem at the many stations I take video. A cheerful greeting can assure people you are not of evil intent.

MG11 · 27 Mar 2018

The guidelines used to be that you can train spot if you sign in first, but I imagine it's a lot stricter now with the See It, Say it, Sorted campaign, it's probably a lot easier to find a footbridge or road bridge that crosses desired railway line and spot from there.

Bertie the bus · 27 Mar 2018

To answer the OP’s question – no I don’t think the policy does need changing. Unless you were causing problems, and only you know if you were or not, I think you were just unlucky.

I had a few pre-booked trips to London planned last year just after the wave of terrorist attacks in London and Manchester, booked before the attacks, and was expecting quite a lot of hassle but I wasn’t bothered once and everybody seemed surprisingly relaxed. I did get approached by a security guard at Clapham Junction but he just asked if I was taking photos of the trains and then asked what I was going to do with them. When I told him not a lot he just walked off with a slightly confused look on his face.

trash80 · 27 Mar 2018

MG11 said:
The guidelines used to be that you can train spot if you sign in first, but I imagine it's a lot stricter now with the See It, Say it, Sorted campaign, it's probably a lot easier to find a footbridge or road bridge that crosses desired railway line and spot from there.

I haven't found it any stricter TBH

trash80 · 27 Mar 2018

Bromley boy said:
For individual photos with a phone I agree it’s hardly likely to be an issue. If you’re going to stand on the end of a platform for hours with a DSLR it’s a different matter (people standing in odd places, on bits of the platform where no trains stop, can cause concern for obvious reasons).

I've seen people act stupidly and even put themselves at risk, especially if there is a kettle passing through. Common sense seems a rare commodity to many.

221129 · 27 Mar 2018

MG11 said:
The guidelines used to be that you can train spot if you sign in first, but I imagine it's a lot stricter now with the See It, Say it, Sorted campaign, it's probably a lot easier to find a footbridge or road bridge that crosses desired railway line and spot from there.

Once again spouting drivel I see. It has never been a requirement to sign in to spot at a station and the BTP advice has not changed either.

MG11 · 27 Mar 2018

221129 said:
Once again spouting drivel I see. It has never been a requirement to sign in to spot at a station and the BTP advice has not changed either.

Hi there, it's lovely to hear from you, as always.
See this advice:- https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.u...for-Rail-Enthusiasts-Photography-at-stations/

Before you enter the platform
At major stations please inform the Duty Station Manager of your presence. This ensures our staff are aware you are on the station and they can go about their duties without concern as to your reasons for being there. At smaller stations you should ensure that you advise a member of the station staff of your activities. Please note that you may require a platform ticket to allow access to platforms or you may be asked to sign in at gated stations.

221129 · 27 Mar 2018

MG11 said:
Hi there, it's lovely to hear from you, as always.
See this advice:- https://www.eastmidlandstrains.co.u...for-Rail-Enthusiasts-Photography-at-stations/

Which is not a requirement like you stated.

MG11 · 27 Mar 2018

221129 said:
Which is not a requirement like you stated.

If East Midlands Trains manage a station and they say please do such and such, then it is a requirement, it's like if you came in to my house and I said please take your shoes off.

yorkie · 27 Mar 2018

brick60000 said:
What would the approach be then if you were taking photos whilst waiting for a train?

The guidelines appear to be aimed at people who arrive by means other than by train and who hang around for ages with no intention to get a train. They do not appear to be aimed at passengers who simply take photos while changing trains.

MG11 said:
If East Midlands Trains manage a station and they say please do such and such, then it is a requirement, it's like if you came in to my house and I said please take your shoes off.

You said "The guidelines used to be that you can train spot if you sign in first" and 221129 pulled you up for that statement, as it is not true. We all make mistakes but you have quite a history of frequently making claims that people subsequently have to correct you on.

When do you think there was a "requirement", where was it documented, and what was written?

MG11 · 27 Mar 2018

yorkie said:
The guidelines appear to be aimed at people who arrive by means other than by train and who hang around for ages with no intention to get a train. They do not appear to be aimed at passengers who simply take photos while changing trains.

You said "The guidelines used to be that you can train spot if you sign in first" and 221129 pulled you up for that statement, as it is not true. We all make mistakes but you have quite a history of frequently making claims that people subsequently have to correct you on.

When do you think there was a "requirement", where was it documented, and what was written?

It is written in the webpage I referenced. See where it mentions checking in with the Duty Station Manager (The person in charge of the station).

Antman · 27 Mar 2018

I've taken photos at Clapham Junction before without any problems and I've seen many other people doing so, quite why a cleaner would object to somebody taking photos I don't know. As long as you aren't getting in anybody's way I don't see what the problem is.

Railway Enthusiasts at Stations - is a clearer policy needed?

Member

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Forum Staff

Member

Established Member