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Thameslink core ATO into use

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Bald Rick

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One of the problems with 'The Core' is the dwell times and passenger loading. Considering the Driver controls when to depart, I do wonder how much those decisions will impact the benefits of ATO. Before the man with the cunning plan jumps in; I am aware of the benefits of FASDO and 700 PTI.

You’ll be fine!

From May dwells in the ‘core’ core (Blackfriars to St P) are consistently 1 minute, which will be plenty in normal running. Regular passengers who are observant will have noticed that the platform teams have had training recently and are being much more informative to passengers - where the train is going, how long it will be at the station for, use all the doors, you can walk through the train, etc.
 
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AlexNL

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It said that the RMT had expressed concern about the railways becoming faceless.
Does adaptive cruise control on cars make the roads faceless?

ATO doesn't make trains faceless. UTO (Unattended Train Operation) does, but this isn't what is being rolled out on Thameslink. It isn't being rolled out on Crossrail either*. UTO means having an empty cab (or no cab at all) which can only realistically be achieved on fully separated infrastructure.

UTO would be possible in the Crossrail Core as all platforms there are being equipped with platform screen doors. As Crossrail trains continue onto NR metals once they've exited the tunnels, running in UTO would increase the chances of a driver not being present to take over the train once it reaches the last station.

* Crossrail trains are capable of turning themselves around at Westbourne Park, while the driver walks to the other pointy end.
 

falcon

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I dont think you can infer anything like that from their post - merely that they were stating that with a reduced need of skills like route knowledge then the wage would go down.

Myself id say that route knowledge would simply have to be retained for if they found themselves with a train broken down somewhere and so on and so forth however i probably wont be around nor bother in 30-40 years so im not that fussed about the future
No route knowledge required now all done by GPS. If everyone on a train was incapcitated the location is still transmitted to falcon.

Falcon is software that transmitts information in real time from the train to the world wide web.Engineers / management can log into it and view just about everything happening on the train even the temperature of the bearings on each wheel. Every postition of power handle, every guage readout ect. All done on every class 91 on the ECML has been for years now. Each trains position is shown on a real time map.
 

Bromley boy

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No route knowledge required now all done by GPS. If everyone on a train was incapcitated the location is still transmitted to falcon.

This is a factually incorrect statement.

I’m afraid route knowledge is still very much required on all areas of the rail network, including the TL core.
 

Bald Rick

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No route knowledge required now all done by GPS. If everyone on a train was incapcitated the location is still transmitted to falcon.

Falcon is software that transmitts information in real time from the train to the world wide web.Engineers / management can log into it and view just about everything happening on the train even the temperature of the bearings on each wheel. Every postition of power handle, every guage readout ect. All done on every class 91 on the ECML has been for years now. Each trains position is shown on a real time map.

Route knowledge is very much still required, and likely to be for the foreseeable future.

The Falcon software is similar to that used by GA on their 90s for the last few years. In theory it would be possible to drive the train from a laptop the other side of the world, but clearly that’s a different type of UTO!
 

Bromley boy

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I see union members who believe their union is invincible when every other union proved not to be are also out in force :)

I’ve never said anything of the sort. It’s you who is using a thread about the TL core to attack unions/drivers’ T’s and C’s.

Change the record.
 

HSTEd

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I’ve never said anything of the sort. It’s you who is using a thread about the TL core to attack unions/drivers’ T’s and C’s.

Change the record.
I never said any such thing.
I merely pointed out that it is essentially inevitable that T&Cs will be degraded, just like everyone elses have been.
It is a fantasy to suggest that ASLEF is invincible, and once ASLEF is broken it will happen.
 

Bromley boy

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I never said any such thing.
I merely pointed out that it is essentially inevitable that T&Cs will be degraded, just like everyone elses have been.
It is a fantasy to suggest that ASLEF is invincible, and once ASLEF is broken it will happen.

Inevitable, is it?

Are victoria line (ATO) drivers earning less than their colleagues on the Piccadilly line (manual) then (they aren’t)?. Are airline pilots paid less when they use autopilot (they aren’t)?

Why is it you are so keen to see a union “broken”?! Statements like that make you sound very bitter.

What is it you do yourself for a living? Let me guess. Your own T’s and C’s have gone through the floor and now you want to see the same happen to others...
 

philthetube

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Yes the Underground has been mentioned but as has been said this is the first use on the mainline which is a new kettle of fish for the first time. Not everyone can agree on everything can they? and not everyone will welcome it with opens arms the way many have.

Can't really see why it is a different kettle of fish, trains, all the same stock, driving themselves primarily in tunnels, with drivers pushing buttons to make them start.

A much bigger kettle of fish is the met and district lines operating alongside conventionally signalled stock Coming in the next couple of years.
 

Bromley boy

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Can't really see why it is a different kettle of fish, trains, all the same stock, driving themselves primarily in tunnels, with drivers pushing buttons to make them start.

A much bigger kettle of fish is the met and district lines operating alongside conventionally signalled stock

The trains going through the TL core come from Brighton, Cambridge, Peterborough - locations which are up to around 150 miles apart - and converge on the core.

They also come across a variety of routes, ranging from the rural Sevenoakes line, the Sutton Loop, to the ECML and the MML.

The core is but 9 minutes of a 2+ hour journey.

It’s very, very, different to the tube.
 
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gsnedders

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Just a quick correction. The Balise is a passive device that is interrogated as the train passes over it, and is used by the train ETCS to recalibrate distance travelled data. All train movement data is transmitted to the train from the trackside Block Processor using the GSM-R Radio.
ETCS balises are not necessarily passive: there are both "fixed data balises" (which are passive) and "transparent data balises" (which are powered). The latter can be used to provide movement authority, as the message (giving movement authority) has to be frequently altered. That said, the transparent data balises also have a default data packet that will become what is read by the train when they lose power (i.e., they'll fail safe to providing no movement authority). Such active balises are how movement authority is communicated in Level 1 (though in Level 1 they're not used for in-cab signalling, merely as a train protection system).

Level 2 (and the theoretical Level 3) as you say use GSM-R to communicate movement authority, and the balises can be all passive (I'm sure there's some obscure use for an active balise in Level 2, but I can't think of any).
 

HSTEd

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Inevitable, is it?
Well it's happened in essentially every other industry - railways are not some magical world that isn't affected by outside events.
Are victoria line (ATO) drivers earning less than their colleagues on the Piccadilly line (manual) then (they aren’t)?
Because the union hasn't collapsed yet
Are airline pilots paid less when they use autopilot (they aren’t)?
Airline pilot terms and conditions have been seriously eroded in the last two decades.
To the point where pilots on a major airline can't even get bottled water in the cockpit without paying for it.
Why is it you are so keen to see a union “broken”?! Statements like that make you sound very bitter.
I'm not, I just realise that is what is inevitably going to happen.
ASLEF is now effectively the last significant old-style unon remaining.
RMT's influence in rail circles is effectively gone - it's broken as the many members of the guard grade, have, are or will be finding out.
What is it you do yourself for a living? Let me guess. Your own T’s and C’s have gone through the floor and now you want to see the same happen to others...

I do whatever jobs I can find that they will pay - I hope to be starting a PhD soon for which I will recieve a relatively modest stipend for extremely long hours.
However I have seen pay and conditions in every industry I have worked in collapse over the last decade.
It is fantasy to imagine that one industry in particular will be able to survive it.
Accepting that this is inevitable is not the same as being particularly pleased about it.
 

Bromley boy

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Well it's happened in essentially every other industry - railways are not some magical world that isn't affected by outside events.
Airline pilot terms and conditions have been seriously eroded in the last two decades.
To the point where pilots on a major airline can't even get bottled water in the cockpit without paying for it.

Is that something that is desirable? How do you want workers’ rights to develop over the next 20 years?

I'm not, I just realise that is what is inevitably going to happen.
ASLEF is now effectively the last significant old-style unon remaining.
RMT's influence in rail circles is effectively gone - it's broken as the many members of the guard grade, have, are or will be finding out.

Oh dear, well, we will see how long aslef sticks around for. There are various engineers who have posted earlier in the thread who believe we will be around in 20, 30+ years...


I do whatever jobs I can find that they will pay - I hope to be starting a PhD soon for which I will recieve a relatively modest stipend for extremely long hours.
However I have seen pay and conditions in every industry I have worked in collapse over the last decade.
It is fantasy to imagine that one industry in particular will be able to survive it.
Accepting that this is inevitable is not the same as being particularly pleased about it.

“I do whatever jobs I can find that will pay”.

So you’re basically an unemployed student! (I’m being tongue in cheek there :D).

Fair play to you - which university and which PhD?
 
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Dave1987

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Well it's happened in essentially every other industry - railways are not some magical world that isn't affected by outside events.

Because the union hasn't collapsed yet

Airline pilot terms and conditions have been seriously eroded in the last two decades.
To the point where pilots on a major airline can't even get bottled water in the cockpit without paying for it.

I'm not, I just realise that is what is inevitably going to happen.
ASLEF is now effectively the last significant old-style unon remaining.
RMT's influence in rail circles is effectively gone - it's broken as the many members of the guard grade, have, are or will be finding out.


I do whatever jobs I can find that they will pay - I hope to be starting a PhD soon for which I will recieve a relatively modest stipend for extremely long hours.
However I have seen pay and conditions in every industry I have worked in collapse over the last decade.
It is fantasy to imagine that one industry in particular will be able to survive it.
Accepting that this is inevitable is not the same as being particularly pleased about it.

Wow! The hatred of drivers on here is real. By the way you and the others may wish to get over your hatred as its not going to change anytime soon. Like I have said in previous threads the salary is attracting some of the best and brightest individuals to the role. HR departments are able to pick from the 'cream of the crop'.

I do not want to take this thread off topic but seeing as other individuals already have then I will say this. You are clearly not happy that your own pay and conditions have been eroded and the have been eroded in the industries that you have worked in. But is that an excuse to attack an industry that still have decent pay and conditions? Or maybe you should focus on the Governments that have allowed your pay and conditions to be eroded? I agree pay and conditions in this country are getting slowly worse and worse. People are having to work longer and longer hours for less and less pay. It's not right. But then we have a Government who is willing to allow it to happen and in fact supports companies who do offer terrible pay and T&C's to their employees/"contractors". Having a go at ASLEF and drivers just because we have decent pay and conditions only serves to continue the downwards spiral in this country.

Ow and congratulations to you for going for your PHD. You are clearly a very intelligent individual. I sincerely hope you are rewarded with a decent standard of living for your efforts. If not then the country, economy and the system has most definitely failed you. I too have put in an enormous amount of effort to become a driver. I also have various other 'strings to my bow'. Do I not also deserve decent pay and conditions? Or is it only those who attend university who are entitled to a decent standard of living?
 

HSTEd

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Is that something that is desirable? How do you want workers’ rights to develop over the next 20 years?
Worker's rights are already gone - Moore's law has seen to that - it is too easy to break almost every task down into a series of monotonous steps that can be performed with relatively little training (if not simply automated away entirely). And cheap container shipping now means there is essentially a global marketplace.
The worker in Solihull must now compete with one in Bangladesh or Africa for work on almost even terms.

I think the best hope is a universal income because then the entire infrastructure associated with unemployment benefits, minimum wage (which is widely subverted anyway) and all that can be swept away.
Capital has beaten labour in this iteration of the system, so now we have to change the game entirely.
Oh dear, well, we will see how long aslef sticks around for. There are various engineers who have posted earlier in the thread who believe we will be around in 20, 30+ years...
Perhaps, Perhaps not, I have already seen many things that I could never have imagined happening even ten years ago.
Fair play to you - which university and which PhD?
University of Manchester and something in Electrical ENgineering/Power Networks probably.
Annoyed I missed out on the last one I treid to get, which was 'New Topoloiges for DC railway electrification' - this will probably be something in Circuit Breakers for HVDC.
 

HSTEd

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I do not want to take this thread off topic but seeing as other individuals already have then I will say this. You are clearly not happy that your own pay and conditions have been eroded and the have been eroded in the industries that you have worked in. But is that an excuse to attack an industry that still have decent pay and conditions?
I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just stating that I think it extremely unlikely that train drivers will be able to escape the fate that has befallen essentially everyone else, in the long run.
Or maybe you should focus on the Governments that have allowed your pay and conditions to be eroded? I agree pay and conditions in this country are getting slowly worse and worse. People are having to work longer and longer hours for less and less pay. It's not right. But then we have a Government who is willing to allow it to happen and in fact supports companies who do offer terrible pay and T&C's to their employees/"contractors". Having a go at ASLEF and drivers just because we have decent pay and conditions only serves to continue the downwards spiral in this country.
It's been going on for 40 years, essentially since 1979.
The war is already over, labour lost.

I'm not attacking ASLEF, as I said I just think its only a matter of time before they cave in like everyone else has.
I've been the last one standing of an old way of doing things - and I know they always get you eventually.
Ow and congratulations to you for going for your PHD. You are clearly a very intelligent individual. I sincerely hope you are rewarded with a decent standard of living for your efforts. If not then the country, economy and the system has most definitely failed you. I too have put in an enormous amount of effort to become a driver. I also have various other 'strings to my bow'. Do I not also deserve decent pay and conditions? Or is it only those who attend university who are entitled to a decent standard of living?
In the current environment, noone gets decent terms and conditions unless they have them by historical fluke, and even the number of those positions has been crumbling.
Eventually, and I think it will be soon, there will be none left at all.
 

Bromley boy

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Worker's rights are already gone - Moore's law has seen to that - it is too easy to break almost every task down into a series of monotonous steps that can be performed with relatively little training (if not simply automated away entirely). And cheap container shipping now means there is essentially a global marketplace.
The worker in Solihull must now compete with one in Bangladesh or Africa for work on almost even terms.

I think the best hope is a universal income because then the entire infrastructure associated with unemployment benefits, minimum wage (which is widely subverted anyway) and all that can be swept away.
Capital has beaten labour in this iteration of the system, so now we have to change the game entirely.

Perhaps, Perhaps not, I have already seen many things that I could never have imagined happening even ten years ago.

University of Manchester and something in Electrical ENgineering/Power Networks probably.
Annoyed I missed out on the last one I treid to get, which was 'New Topoloiges for DC railway electrification' - this will probably be something in Circuit Breakers for HVDC.

Bedtime for me. I will respond tomorrow.
 

Dave1987

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I'm not attacking anyone, I'm just stating that I think it extremely unlikely that train drivers will be able to escape the fate that has befallen essentially everyone else, in the long run.

It's been going on for 40 years, essentially since 1979.
The war is already over, labour lost.

I'm not attacking ASLEF, as I said I just think its only a matter of time before they cave in like everyone else has.
I've been the last one standing of an old way of doing things - and I know they always get you eventually.

In the current environment, noone gets decent terms and conditions unless they have them by historical fluke, and even the number of those positions has been crumbling.
Eventually, and I think it will be soon, there will be none left at all.

Whilst I understand exactly where you are coming from and it definitely a problem that the Government is stubbornly refusing to acknowledge exists we are going way off on a tangent here. The issues you raise are most definitely rife throughout our economy and the economy is already starting to suffer because of it. Before we go off topic any further then we should leave that there.
 

axlecounter

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ETCS balises are not necessarily passive: there are both "fixed data balises" (which are passive) and "transparent data balises" (which are powered). The latter can be used to provide movement authority, as the message (giving movement authority) has to be frequently altered. That said, the transparent data balises also have a default data packet that will become what is read by the train when they lose power (i.e., they'll fail safe to providing no movement authority). Such active balises are how movement authority is communicated in Level 1 (though in Level 1 they're not used for in-cab signalling, merely as a train protection system).

Level 2 (and the theoretical Level 3) as you say use GSM-R to communicate movement authority, and the balises can be all passive (I'm sure there's some obscure use for an active balise in Level 2, but I can't think of any).

There’s no such thing as “powered” balises. The balises aren’t active. Transmission is always activated by the train antenna which emits a magnetic field that provides the small energy necessary to “wake” the balise which only at that (extremely short) moment in time could be called “powered”. At that point the balise starts to send its message to the train antenna, as soon as the magnetic field of the antenna is passed the balise goes back to being an unpowered piece of plastic.

The difference between a fixed data balise and a transparent data balise is that while the former always transmits the same data packet (that means that no other external trackside device is needed) the latter can transmit a range of different messages that usually depend on the actual state of the interlocking/signal and are fed to the balise by a LEU (Lineside Electronics Unit), which is the powered device here. A balise should switch to the default (fail safe) telegram if its LEU can’t provide the needed signal quality or any error between this and the balise occurs.

Balises on ETCS L2 lines are usually fixed data, used mainly for positioning (eg: “if you read ”this” balise you’re “here”) hence a reduction of trackside components (aka costs) in comparison to traditional signalling.
 

Bletchleyite

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The hatred of Rail staff on here has always been what keeps staff away. Its quite pathetic but the mods don't really care thats been shown to be true time and time again.

Once again, I completely fail to understand why a view that a particular job is not necessary or can be fulfilled by technology instead of a person is hatred.

Just because I believe, as I stated, that in the long term future "guard only operation" is the likely future of the railway does not imply that I have any kind of hatred or personal dislike for the people who presently occupy the role of driver. Neither would I argue that someone who felt that I would not be working in my present area of IT in 20 years' time (which is pretty certain, products move on too quickly for that) would have any personal dislike for me.

And even where the thread criticises a member of staff's actions, that is criticism of actions as reported in the thread, not hatred of the person. It is near impossible to get to know someone on a forum alone to an adequate extent that you could start casting aspersions as to their character let alone developing "hatred".

People take things too personally. A web forum is for discussion of issues, and issues alone. It should never be actually personal, and should never be interpreted as being such.
 

whhistle

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Wow! The hatred of drivers on here is real.
When you get posts like this, it's hard to have any respect for a driver... someone who sits on their bottom all day, pushes handles and presses buttons.

You can claim there's "skill" involved or that the route knowledge they know is immense, but is the skill or knowledge really comparable? For a role that threatens to cancel trains if someone sneezes the wrong way... Don't get me wrong, many drivers are pretty nice people but as a collective, it's a whole other story.

I suspect a poll of 100 people who aren't connected to the railway industry would suggest Train Drivers are overpaid for what they do.
Big pay = big heads = ignorance and arrogance.


...the salary is attracting some of the best and brightest individuals to the role. HR departments are able to pick from the 'cream of the crop'.
Define "best".
Some robot who does what they're told?
Not saying that's a bad thing but driving a train doesn't seem to leave much scope for personal development. But then who cares when you earn more money than nurses saving lives eh? Because driving a train is much more important/skillful in this life than police officers, prison wardens and medical staff...
 

SPADTrap

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I won't lose any sleep. How you say..go whhistle :lol:

It isn't hate, it's fear of those who stick together.
 

Jan

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The Münich S Bahn core [...] has a form of ATO
It doesn't - first of all, as I already mentioned, German AFB is more like a fancy cruise control that allows for some sort of crude ATO operation because on LZB/ETCS-equipped routes it will use the minimum of driver selected target speed and signalling imposed speed limit, but it cannot stop at stations on its own or anything else you might expect from a proper ATO system. Secondly, the BR 423 trains used on the Munich S-Bahn system only have LZB, but no AFB.
 

Bromley boy

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Once again, I completely fail to understand why a view that a particular job is not necessary or can be fulfilled by technology instead of a person is hatred.

Just because I believe, as I stated, that in the long term future "guard only operation" is the likely future of the railway does not imply that I have any kind of hatred or personal dislike for the people who presently occupy the role of driver. Neither would I argue that someone who felt that I would not be working in my present area of IT in 20 years' time (which is pretty certain, products move on too quickly for that) would have any personal dislike for me.

And even where the thread criticises a member of staff's actions, that is criticism of actions as reported in the thread, not hatred of the person. It is near impossible to get to know someone on a forum alone to an adequate extent that you could start casting aspersions as to their character let alone developing "hatred".

People take things too personally. A web forum is for discussion of issues, and issues alone. It should never be actually personal, and should never be interpreted as being such.

Agreed generally, but posts like whhistle’s on this thread are what is being referred to. He refers to drivers as ignorant, arrogant, overpaid robots.

Big pay = big heads = ignorance and arrogance.

That goes beyond reasoned discussion and strays into bitterness.
 

Bromley boy

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Worker's rights are already gone - Moore's law has seen to that - it is too easy to break almost every task down into a series of monotonous steps that can be performed with relatively little training (if not simply automated away entirely). And cheap container shipping now means there is essentially a global marketplace.
The worker in Solihull must now compete with one in Bangladesh or Africa for work on almost even terms.

I overreacted to your previous posts, apologies. The attacks on here can be relentless but I see that isn’t where you were coming from.

I generally agree with you. I think your statement above paints a particularly negative view, but yes things have definitely worsened over the last few years with the rise of the gig economy. It remains to be seen what effect the rise of AI and automation is going to have on the workforce but the signs aren’t positive.

Off topic for this discussion but would be an interesting thread in its own right.
 
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gsnedders

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There’s no such thing as “powered” balises. The balises aren’t active. Transmission is always activated by the train antenna which emits a magnetic field that provides the small energy necessary to “wake” the balise which only at that (extremely short) moment in time could be called “powered”. At that point the balise starts to send its message to the train antenna, as soon as the magnetic field of the antenna is passed the balise goes back to being an unpowered piece of plastic.

The difference between a fixed data balise and a transparent data balise is that while the former always transmits the same data packet (that means that no other external trackside device is needed) the latter can transmit a range of different messages that usually depend on the actual state of the interlocking/signal and are fed to the balise by a LEU (Lineside Electronics Unit), which is the powered device here. A balise should switch to the default (fail safe) telegram if its LEU can’t provide the needed signal quality or any error between this and the balise occurs.

Balises on ETCS L2 lines are usually fixed data, used mainly for positioning (eg: “if you read ”this” balise you’re “here”) hence a reduction of trackside components (aka costs) in comparison to traditional signalling.
My understanding was that the transmission was always passive, but that the transparent data baslises were powered insofar as the LEU provided some power such that it changes the telegram (because if it were truly unpowered, I'm unaware of any way it could change what telegram was transmitted to the train)?
 

jon0844

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Inevitable, is it?

Are victoria line (ATO) drivers earning less than their colleagues on the Piccadilly line (manual) then (they aren’t)?. Are airline pilots paid less when they use autopilot (they aren’t)?

Why is it you are so keen to see a union “broken”?! Statements like that make you sound very bitter.

What is it you do yourself for a living? Let me guess. Your own T’s and C’s have gone through the floor and now you want to see the same happen to others...

I think it is inevitable too. Not tomorrow, not next week or the week after - but one day.

I don't see that a driver could ever go entirely, but they could be hands off for most or all of the journey. They're not paid for driving a train today (it's relatively easy to move a train forward and stop it) but rather the knowledge they possess and how invaluable they are in dealing with any incident they're involved in.

I wouldn't fly on a plane that took off, flew and landed on its own. I know a plane can do this today. I know a plane may very well do this a lot of the time. I also know the pilot(s) can step in if they have to.

The issue isn't so much the day trains can drive themselves, but rather what technology will do on a more gradual basis to reduce the training and monitoring/assessments that a driver needs to go through. That, sadly, is likely to lead to shorter training times and lower pay over time. Again, I would say that's inevitable and it matters not what T&Cs other people are having to put up with because sooner or later 'they'll come for you too'.

ATO doesn't impact on drivers at all, but it will be setting the ball rolling for those in power who will start to wonder about how much they can extend it. But look at the motor industry and all the problems there.. Some people are unable to look at the bigger picture and realise we're still some way off. Because planes spend time in the air with little interaction with things like pedestrians/trespassers, animals, fallen trees etc, it's probably easier to get rid of pilots before anything else.
 
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