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"Train passenger fined £470 for not paying £2 fare (after he'd just spent £200 on another ticket)"

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ForTheLoveOf

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Article from WalesOnline.co.uk:

A train passenger was fined £471 for not paying a £2.20 fare despite having already spent hundreds of pounds on another ticket.

John Button said he bought a £216 ticket to travel between London and Cardiff Central on September 1 last year.

The 27-year-old said after arriving in Cardiff, he then boarded another train to make the short journey from Cardiff Central to Heath High Level, and said he expected to pay the conductor during the journey.

But when he reached Heath High Level, John said he was stopped by staff and he offered to pay the fare and penalty on the spot.

John claims he did not receive the fine until six months after it was sent due to moving home. He says he was forwarded a court order for £471 which was sent to his old address in Cardiff.

He said: “I accept that the letter of the law is that I should not have entered the train without a ticket, however I entered the train with the intention to buy one on there. I offered to pay for the fare and fine when I was caught and feel like it has been escalated to an insane amount of money to pay for such a small value ticket, especially after already paying £216 for the rest of the journey.

“If they had issued me a fine of £30 to £60, I would have been annoyed [but] paid it without question. Taking me to court was totally unreasonable.”

At the time John was a postgraduate engineering student and was coming back from London to visit his dad.

After the incident John said he got a new job and moved from Cardiff to Surrey. He says the delay in forwarding the initial letter to his new address was the only reason he failed to pay the fine.

“This is an insane amount of money for the value of the ticket and I don’t know how they get away with charging this much,” he said. “I accept my mistake in not buying the ticket for that part of the journey prior to boarding and would have paid a fair fine had that been offered.

“Not even having an option to settle the dispute before court is totally unjust and something needs to be done to stop the extortionate fares and fines that train companies are getting away with charging.”

It's not the first time, customers have unwittingly ended up with huge fines . Last year, disability support worker Jenny Shearman was given a £615 fine for being unable to buy a £1.90 ticket for a four-minute journey from Llandaf station to Cathays.

Also last year, the leader of the Welsh Conservatives raised concerns about “disproportionate penalty fares” being levied against Arriva Trains Wales passengers after a pregnant woman was ordered by a court to pay more than £600 for not paying a £2.30 train fare.

Bethan Jelfs, customer services director at Arriva Trains Wales, said: “When anyone is stopped leaving the railway network without the correct ticket for their journey by one of our revenue protection teams they have breached the National Rail conditions of travel.

“People are asked to respond with any mitigating information and cases that may be destined for court are reviewed by a senior manager within Arriva Trains Wales to ensure we believe that is the right decision for that case.

“We certainly don’t want to see people ending up with large fines and we would strongly encourage anyone who has been stopped to engage with us as there may be the option to resolve a case before it even gets to court.

“Any fines are set by the court and Arriva only receives the price of the ticket. We ask that all customers have the correct ticket for their journey bought at the earliest opportunity and there are now more ways to buy than ever before making it as easy as possible.”

Whilst clearly he was legally in the wrong for not buying a ticket for the last part of his journey, I find this prosecution entirely unwarranted - the fare from Paddington to Swansea (it must have been an Anytime given the price quoted) is exactly the same as the fare from Paddington to Heath High Level. In this case, to prosecute someone over an 'unpaid' fare is entirely ludicrious IMO.

Also don't appreciate the half-truths given by ATW's PR person, claiming that they only get the fare, and that the fine is set by the Court - pretending as if they had no say in it and as if it was entirely outside their control. They made the choice to prosecute, they will have requested prosecution costs (and almost certainly got them, even if vastly inflated), they may well have made the man look like a thieving fare evader (when in any clear-thinking person's mind he's clearly anything but). Not to mention that the amount they would have got, had the passenger bought the proper through ticket would probably not have been more than a few pence based on historic ORCATS breakdowns for long-distance journeys.

Your thoughts and views appreciated.
 
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ANorthernGuard

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If it was me I would have just done an over distance excess and reminded him to make sure the ticket has the correct destination (due to the fare being the same) For me there is no intent so common sense should have been used.
 

theironroad

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Did he tell and show the London to Cardiff ticket to the revenue inspector at the station he was stopped? Or did he wait until h went to the press later?

Why wasn't his mail being redirected by the post office to his new address, he would have received the initial letter within a couple of days?
 

Bertie the bus

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Moving house without forwarding his mail was his fault. It costs very little and isn't much effort either. Paying over £200 for another ticket is of no relevance whatsoever. If I pay £35K for a new car it doesn’t entitle me to then go on a £100 shoplifting spree.

I offered to pay for the fare and fine when I was caught…

Very good of him. That makes it alright then.
 

AlterEgo

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If it was me I would have just done an over distance excess and reminded him to make sure the ticket has the correct destination (due to the fare being the same) For me there is no intent so common sense should have been used.

Looks like he ran into an RPI rather than a guard/conductor.

Very unfortunate.

I broadly support ATW's low tolerance of fare evasion in South Wales, but this case doesn't seem fair.

As others have pointed out, he was actually trying to pay more than he needed to.
 
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Man over travels, Man gets caught, man moves house and thinks it will all go away, Man gets fined by the courts, man is rather stupid. The folly of man.
 

Sleepy

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People are confused by penalty fares charged by railway - scroats often say give me a fine. To which I reply only courts issue fines !!
People that evade £2ish fares think the worst that happens if caught is £20, a visit to a court is not expected by most.
 

cle

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I think long distance fares like this should be sensible, and be inclusive of a small metro journey at the end (train, bus, LR), like this should have - especially the higher priced tickets. Places like Switzerland and the Netherlands throw things like this in, but they are logical and integrated.

Waste of time and bad PR.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think long distance fares like this should be sensible, and be inclusive of a small metro journey at the end (train, bus, LR), like this should have - especially the higher priced tickets. Places like Switzerland and the Netherlands throw things like this in, but they are logical and integrated.

I'd say to zonalise them (effectively having more and bigger station groups). So a ticket to Liverpool Stations would be just that - a ticket to ANY station within the City of Liverpool, for example.
 

Gareth Marston

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Sounds like theirs a pile of missing info which i strongly suspect revolves around the initial letter sent to his old address being unanswered and then it escalated.

If he had answered it and showed evidence that he had the ticket form Paddington it probably would have been dropped.(the RPI's just take down evidence and details).

Walesonline should really be highlighting the folly of not having your mail forwarded when you move!
 

mmh

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I'd say to zonalise them (effectively having more and bigger station groups). So a ticket to Liverpool Stations would be just that - a ticket to ANY station within the City of Liverpool, for example.

There seems to be a lot of behind-the-scenes grouping in fares, but obviously the passenger (and perhaps the staff) won't know that. Regardless though, this sort of nonsense is beyond petty and just gives the railway a bad name.

The inconsistency over how which rules are applied is ridiculous. I once was on a London Midland train from Euston to Nuneaton, but en route my plans changed and I wanted to go to Atherstone first. When the guard checked my ticket I explained I wanted to go further, and could I buy a return from Nuneaton to Atherstone - I didn't think about excessing it for some reason, but the guard did, and checked - zero difference...

I'm pretty sure I will have used a London to Llandudno Junction to Deganwy, as I know the fares to them are the same and either can be more convenient depending on circumstance on the day of travel. Yes, that probably means I should always buy a ticket to Llandudno, but sometimes you don't think. I suppose doing that would make me liable for a huge fine...

(Looking out of curiosity, the fare to London is the same for all stations from Llanfairfechan to Abergele & Pensarn and from Llandudno to Dolgarrog - 20 miles east-west and 10 miles north-south. A fair sized area, but what would be the logic in fining anyone with a ticket to the wrong station in it? The railway hasn't lost any money, so how can it be justified?)
 

ForTheLoveOf

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There seems to be a lot of behind-the-scenes grouping in fares, but obviously the passenger (and perhaps the staff) won't know that. Regardless though, this sort of nonsense is beyond petty and just gives the railway a bad name.

The inconsistency over how which rules are applied is ridiculous. I once was on a London Midland train from Euston to Nuneaton, but en route my plans changed and I wanted to go to Atherstone first. When the guard checked my ticket I explained I wanted to go further, and could I buy a return from Nuneaton to Atherstone - I didn't think about excessing it for some reason, but the guard did, and checked - zero difference...

I'm pretty sure I will have used a London to Llandudno Junction to Deganwy, as I know the fares to them are the same and either can be more convenient depending on circumstance on the day of travel. Yes, that probably means I should always buy a ticket to Llandudno, but sometimes you don't think. I suppose doing that would make me liable for a huge fine...

(Looking out of curiosity, the fare to London is the same for all stations from Llanfairfechan to Abergele & Pensarn and from Llandudno to Dolgarrog - 20 miles east-west and 10 miles north-south. A fair sized area, but what would be the logic in fining anyone with a ticket to the wrong station in it? The railway hasn't lost any money, so how can it be justified?)

There is a loss to some companies though - for example in the case in the article, ATW would probably get nothing off a PAD-CDF Anytime, since almost all passengers will be going on a through GWR train. For a PAD-HHL Anytime they'll get a very small portion though - since you have to take an ATW train for the last part.

That's the only justification I can see for this prosecution. How on earth they found any justification for the prosecution passing the 'public interest' test is entirely beyond me. If I were the person convicted, I would be consulting a solicitor to see if there were any grounds for a malicious prosecution lawsuit.
 

mallard

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ATW would probably get nothing off a PAD-CDF Anytime, since almost all passengers will be going on a through GWR train

I believe ORCATS does provide some revenue to every possible operator for each ticket, even if the chance of using them is very low (it's based on a model developed in the 1980s, laughably simplistic by today's standards). Since it's possible to change at Newport to an ATW train on the "direct" route and it's additionally permitted to travel via Cheltenham, ATW would have recieved a (probably very small) proportion of the ticket revenue.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I believe ORCATS does provide some revenue to every possible operator for each ticket, even if the chance of using them is very low (it's based on a model developed in the 1980s, laughably simplistic by today's standards). Since it's possible to change at Newport to an ATW train on the "direct" route and it's additionally permitted to travel via Cheltenham, ATW would have recieved a (probably very small) proportion of the ticket revenue.

From the previous information we've seen, ORCATS gives significantly less, nearing nothing, to operators which provide a journey time longer than the quickest time. Changing will inevitably introduce a longer journey time and so I doubt ATW's option would be given much weighting. Nevertheless, the fact stands - ATW would get more off a ticket to HHL and that is the only slither of a justification for them claiming a fare is unpaid.
 

RJ21

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Given the cost of prosecution and the level of punishment handed down it hardly seems to have been in the public interest to bring the prosecution.

The idea of local journeys being available as a free add on to long distance fares is entirely sensible. I remember SNCB/NMBS offering free onward to anywhere in Belgium with a Eurostar ticket, and the same applied inwards towards Brussels. The scheme ended some years ago but it was good while it lasted.
 

Marton

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I remember SNCB/NMBS offering free onward to anywhere in Belgium with a Eurostar ticket, and the same applied inwards towards Brussels. The scheme ended some years ago but it was good while it lasted.

Can’t have been that long ago. I did it in September.
 

RJ21

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They must have restarted the scheme in Belgium, it was a few years ago I had to get a ticket to Ghent rather than use the free onward.
 

mmh

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I'm glad the guards I've come across on the very rare occaision I've not had a valid ticket have been reasonable. I can think of two occaisions.

Once in the days before barriers at my local station, and trains with guards vans, realising that in a rush I'd boarded the train without a ticket and going to the van to find the guard to buy a ticket, which he happily did.

And another when I missed my booked train on an advance ticket when a cross-London connection between London Bridge and Euston by Underground took too long as the Underground station was closed so I took two buses instead. At Euston I just got the next train. The guard told me I should have gone to the ticket office to get it changed or endorsed for another train. Fair enough, but I wouldn't have thought of doing that and it could have made me miss that train too. All was well though, he just let me travel.
 
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urbophile

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Some of the railway professionals posting on this thread seem to forget that most people (especially those who aren't regular commuters) don't understand the arcane regulations and fares structures of our insanely deregulated rail industry. I wonder if the man concerned simply booked a ticket to Cardiff online without realising that he could have got one to his final destination at no extra cost? Was he expected to make a detour to the booking office at Cardiff (possibly missing his connection) or did he – quite reasonably – expect to be able to pay the guard on the second train? And even if he was knowingly chancing it, why was he not offered the chance to pay even a penalty fare when challenged? Anyway, talk about sledgehammers to crack nuts!
 

mmh

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I imagine a fair few people don't realise you can buy a ticket from any station to any other, after all the railway does seem to go out of its way to pretend it's a collection of completely unconnected companies. May well be more prevalent amongst younger people who don't remember it acting or portraying itself any differently.
 

Gareth Marston

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There is a loss to some companies though - for example in the case in the article, ATW would probably get nothing off a PAD-CDF Anytime, since almost all passengers will be going on a through GWR train. For a PAD-HHL Anytime they'll get a very small portion though - since you have to take an ATW train for the last part.

That's the only justification I can see for this prosecution. How on earth they found any justification for the prosecution passing the 'public interest' test is entirely beyond me. If I were the person convicted, I would be consulting a solicitor to see if there were any grounds for a malicious prosecution lawsuit.

Would you arrive at a London terminal and then expect a your LondonTerminals tickett To cover you for a trip in Zone one?
 

Gareth Marston

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Some of the railway professionals posting on this thread seem to forget that most people (especially those who aren't regular commuters) don't understand the arcane regulations and fares structures of our insanely deregulated rail industry. I wonder if the man concerned simply booked a ticket to Cardiff online without realising that he could have got one to his final destination at no extra cost? Was he expected to make a detour to the booking office at Cardiff (possibly missing his connection) or did he – quite reasonably – expect to be able to pay the guard on the second train? And even if he was knowingly chancing it, why was he not offered the chance to pay even a penalty fare when challenged? Anyway, talk about sledgehammers to crack nuts!
The excess fares window is right next to the entrance to platforms 6/7 at Cardifff Cemtral he would have been in the tunnel looking at it transferring from a mainline platform to get to the Heath from 6/7.
 

Bletchleyite

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Would you arrive at a London terminal and then expect a your LondonTerminals tickett To cover you for a trip in Zone one?

On the Tube? No, because it isn't the (National Rail) train.

Would I, however, arrive at Manchester Piccadilly and expect to be able to continue using my Anytime ticket on another train to Manchester Oxford Road? Of course I would, and indeed I can.

(Don't cite the Thameslink situation as it's frankly bizarre; only an obscure agreement with TfL on fares means that the logical situation, the fare to any Zone 1 Thameslink station being the same, cannot be the case)
 

Bletchleyite

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The excess fares window is right next to the entrance to platforms 6/7 at Cardifff Cemtral he would have been in the tunnel looking at it transferring from a mainline platform to get to the Heath from 6/7.

And what happens if I ask for a zero-fare excess there?

Clue: I have never, not once, been issued one even where I have specifically requested it. I've even ended up with bizarre workarounds like refunding an already used ticket as if it hadn't been used and issuing a replacement (this one was care of Euston LM a couple of years ago). But mostly been told not to worry as the fare is the same.

A prosecution in this case is beyond ridiculous.
 

mmh

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Would you arrive at a London terminal and then expect a your LondonTerminals tickett To cover you for a trip in Zone one?

On a different system altogether with different non-zero fare differences to wherever I was going? Probably not.

But that's reminded me of a fare mistake I used to make years ago multiple times a week until one day someone explained
why my ticket was never accepted at a barrier. I often used to buy tickets to London Zone U1 (I think that's how it was printed) from a south London national rail station, and changed to the Northern Line at Balham. As far as I remember the tickets would open the barrier leaving Balham NR (I think this would be a valid break-of-journey anyway) but never open the barrier at Balham Underground. The barrier staff always let me through though, until one day someone told me those tickets were only valid to take national rail to zone 1, then an underground journey within zone 1, not just "any journey to a zone 1 station". He let me through I think, but with a "you shouldn't do this again", so I never did.

How are you supposed to know that though? I had a ticket from my origin to my destination, with no indication that my route wasn't the point of the ticket.
 
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