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What will GTR do with all of their units once the full Thameslink timetable is running?

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London Trains

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When the TL full timetable is running, what will happen with all the GN units? This excludes the Moorgate Lines as they will use their own fleet of 717s.
They don't need 29 387s and some 365s (I know the 365s are slowly being withdrawn) just for the Kings Lynn Fasts.
 
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class387

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387s are for the Cambridge fasts.
Half of the 365s are being kept for peak Peterborough extras, the other half goes off-lease.
313s are being scrapped.
 

Ianno87

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They'll also have two trains per hour in the peak additionally from Peterborough to King's Cross (12 car - i.e. 3 units per train) and also from Baldock to King's Cross (8 car - 2 units per train) that will swallow up the remainder of the fleet not needed for the Lynns.
 

dorsetdesiro

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Is this supposed to eventually become all Thameslink operating only 700s and 717s as it seems to be going that way?

The 313s are getting swept out and 3xxs may get cascaded elsewhere in the future, Southern & GX looks set to split and form its own franchise again. Then GN looks doomed as a brand, efforts seem to be focused heavily on TL and its expansion with branded TL 700s running on GN routes. A single larger Thameslink franchise, absorbing GN, on the cards?
 

Domh245

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Is this supposed to eventually become all Thameslink operating only 700s and 717s as it seems to be going that way?

The 313s are getting swept out and 3xxs may get cascaded elsewhere in the future, Southern & GX looks set to split and form its own franchise again. Then GN looks doomed as a brand, efforts seem to be focused heavily on TL and its expansion with branded TL 700s running on GN routes. A single larger Thameslink franchise, absorbing GN, on the cards?
I don't know where you've got the idea of the 3xxs being cacsaded away and replaced with 700s from, but that isn't going to happen, there aren't enough Thameslink units to enable that. However your point about GN being a very small franchise is true, and can probably be easily overcome by going back to the TGN franchise grouping of first capital connect.
 

swt_passenger

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Is this supposed to eventually become all Thameslink operating only 700s and 717s as it seems to be going that way?
No it definitely isn't. There will still be a rump GN brand of the GTR franchise operating into Kings Cross (387 and 365) and Moorgate (717). Only the services through the Canal Tunnels will be branded Thameslink (using 700s).
(Another regular question that seems to get answered every few months.)
 

steevp

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I understand they may be looking for some spare units in Scotland after a little problem with the class 385 windscreens...........<D
 

NSE

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I still don’t see why they got the 387’s. They could have just kept the 365’s as a whole fleet and then not had a split fleet :/
 

jopsuk

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There would not have been sufficient units to over all the franchise commitments, including 8 car trains to Ely and the (delayed) frequency increase to King's Lynn.

Plus franchise commitments to run trains with air conditioning, wifi, power sockets on the Cambridge Express and on to the Fen Line.
 

NSE

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Fair, can’t help but feel a smaller fleet of 387’s plus the 40 365’s would have been good. That and they could have done a nice refit on the 365’s when they did the dumb down refresh
 

bramling

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There would not have been sufficient units to over all the franchise commitments, including 8 car trains to Ely and the (delayed) frequency increase to King's Lynn.

Plus franchise commitments to run trains with air conditioning, wifi, power sockets on the Cambridge Express and on to the Fen Line.

The 365 could likely have been fitted with air conditioning etc if required, so I don't think that would have been a showstopper. The 387s do, on paper, have a slight advantage in being 110 mph capable - if ever allowed to work at that speed on GN.

But I think the real reasons were SDO, and simply that the numbers didn't match up. 29x387 plus 19x 365 equals 48 units, whereas there are only 40x 365. So if the whole 365 fleet was kept, there would have needed to be a top-up of something else - either more 700s (unpopular!), a smaller fleet of 387s, or something else. It might have been possible to make a case for keeping a rump fleet of 321s purely for peak services, which would have had an advantage in maximising seating capacity, but the down side would be performance. Any 365 or 321 option would also introduce a problem with short platforms and dispatch, so platform extensions would be necessary (as a minimum Baldock, Ashwell, Meldreth, Shepreth, Foxton, and in the longer term north of Cambridge), although that might not have been such a bad thing.

One way or other, the 387s are looking likely to be rather under-utilised from May, in that the daytime Ely/Kings Lynn fast service only requires something like 12x units to provide all-day 1tph KX to KL with 8 cars south of Cambridge and 1tph KX - Ely 8 cars throughout.

On a different note, my local newspaper has already published a list of 365 services from May, and mentions that local rail user groups have successfully pressurized to get 365s over 387s on certain services in order to maximise seating capacity. One wonders how true this is...
 

jopsuk

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they've got enough- and only enough- 387s to run the final Express/Fen Line off-peak timetable, and are retaining enough 365s to cover the additional peak time services. Not sure about weekday, but weekend services on the express are now typically 12 car south of Cambridge on Sundays

Ideally they would have got a large enough 387 fleet.

I believe fitting the 365s out to meet the aircon/wifi/power socket specification was looked at and rejected as too expensive to deliver reliable systems.
 

bramling

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they've got enough- and only enough- 387s to run the final Express/Fen Line off-peak timetable, and are retaining enough 365s to cover the additional peak time services. Not sure about weekday, but weekend services on the express are now typically 12 car south of Cambridge on Sundays

Ideally they would have got a large enough 387 fleet.

I believe fitting the 365s out to meet the aircon/wifi/power socket specification was looked at and rejected as too expensive to deliver reliable systems.

Doing some rough calculations based on the current timings... Half-hourly to Kings Lynn would require 12 units with 8 cars south of Cambridge, or 16 units with 8 cars throughout to Kings Lynn. Alternatively it would require 16 units to run 4 cars to Kings Lynn with 12 cars south of Cambridge, or 20 units with 8 cars to Kings Lynn and 12 south of Cambridge. This still leaves quite a few units spare during the day, although of course maintenance on the GN tends to work on the basis that the bulk of outer-suburban units visit Hornsey between the peaks and stable at the country end overnight whilst the inner-suburban units tend to do the opposite.

I guess time will tell whether GN gets additional 387s. There's certainly a standardisation benefit, but equally the minimal utilisation does make it rather wasteful.

A lot will depend on how Thameslink pans out. If the proposed timetable goes Princess then things will have to be looked at again, and fewer services through the core will place a strain on the 700 fleet. Whatever happens there would remain an SDO issue with the 365s.
 

D365

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I believe fitting the 365s out to meet the aircon/wifi/power socket specification was looked at and rejected as too expensive to deliver reliable systems.

Probably a fair analysis for what is now a small non-standard fleet. Don't forget that Eversholt have experience with their Renatus programme on the Class 321s.

Are some under the impression that the Peterborough peak services are being withdrawn? This discussion seems to be repeated at least every three months...
 

locomad46

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Passing through the Ely area by road this week, I saw a number of 365's stabled close to ENJ. I never got to see how many.
 

mgmidget1500

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Is this supposed to eventually become all Thameslink operating only 700s and 717s as it seems to be going that way?

The 313s are getting swept out and 3xxs may get cascaded elsewhere in the future, Southern & GX looks set to split and form its own franchise again. Then GN looks doomed as a brand, efforts seem to be focused heavily on TL and its expansion with branded TL 700s running on GN routes. A single larger Thameslink franchise, absorbing GN, on the cards?

It is already one franchise. Unlike previously when GN was part of the WAGN franchise, Govia have decided to use two separate brands (currently) for a single franchise. The franchise wasn't split again after FCC, but for the duration of the Thameslink Programme South Central (including Gatwick Express) were combined into an enlarged Thameslink/Great Northern franchise due to the large amount of disruption being caused by the rebuilding of London Bridge. Once Thameslink Programme is complete then the South Central franchise will be split off again (keeping Gatwick Express with South Central) this is due to happen in 2021 (as announced by the govt in November 2017).
 

bspahh

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Passing through the Ely area by road this week, I saw a number of 365's stabled close to ENJ. I never got to see how many.

The latest Rail magazine says that there are now eight 365's in storage at Potters in Ely.
 

tsr

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It is already one franchise. Unlike previously when GN was part of the WAGN franchise, Govia have decided to use two separate brands (currently) for a single franchise. The franchise wasn't split again after FCC, but for the duration of the Thameslink Programme South Central (including Gatwick Express) were combined into an enlarged Thameslink/Great Northern franchise due to the large amount of disruption being caused by the rebuilding of London Bridge. Once Thameslink Programme is complete then the South Central franchise will be split off again (keeping Gatwick Express with South Central) this is due to happen in 2021 (as announced by the govt in November 2017).

There have been mutterings that GX could become its own separate micro-franchise, which personally I think makes a lot of sense if it is to continue at all. It is increasingly being built as its own business rather than part of Southern. Certain elements are flourishing, although there is still the carrying-fresh-air debate at certain times of day.

There is now more separation than ever between the management of SN & GX crew depots, stock, station facilities and so on. It will be interesting to see if there are any significant crew or stock interworkings at all from May.
 

skyhigh

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There have been mutterings that GX could become its own separate micro-franchise, which personally I think makes a lot of sense if it is to continue at all. It is increasingly being built as its own business rather than part of Southern. Certain elements are flourishing, although there is still the carrying-fresh-air debate at certain times of day.

There is now more separation than ever between the management of SN & GX crew depots, stock, station facilities and so on. It will be interesting to see if there are any significant crew or stock interworkings at all from May.
It's interesting then that Heathrow Express seems to be doing the opposite then, though I know there are good reasons for that.
 

JonathanH

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There have been mutterings that GX could become its own separate micro-franchise, which personally I think makes a lot of sense if it is to continue at all. It is increasingly being built as its own business rather than part of Southern. Certain elements are flourishing, although there is still the carrying-fresh-air debate at certain times of day.

There is now more separation than ever between the management of SN & GX crew depots, stock, station facilities and so on. It will be interesting to see if there are any significant crew or stock interworkings at all from May.

Given the introduction of a new timetable which might be expected to be in place for at least the medium term separation of Gatwick Express may be possible from a strategic point of view but the fact remains that at times of disruption it is helpful for Gatwick Express to pick up Southern stops at Clapham Junction and East Croydon.

It looks like there will still be some Southern services using Gatwick Express stock in the evenings in the new timetable - e.g. 1833 Brighton to London Victoria is formed off a Gatwick Express arrival - it simply isn't possible to run 2 Southern / 2 Gatwick Express services an hour northbound while there are 4 Gatwick Express and no Southern services arriving at Brighton southbound.

At Gatwick, at various points if the day Gatwick Express services will leave from platform 4 (morning peak), platform 6 (for terminators) and platform 1 (off peak from Brighton) and to a lesser extent platform 5 and even platform 3.
 

MML

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GX really isn't the premium product it used to be with the 73 loco hauled stock which had comfortable seating and where a train was always waiting in platform.
Today, seating looks pretty dire and less comfortable than it's Southern competitor.
No wonder loads are so low. And rarely is the stock waiting on platform so you still end up standing on a cold, wet and windy platform.
Only benefits are there are no intermediate stops on the way to Victoria and an almost empty carriage to sit in.

This cannot be an effective use of track infrastructure.
 

Jonny

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387s are for the Cambridge fasts.
Half of the 365s are being kept for peak Peterborough extras, the other half goes off-lease.
313s are being scrapped.

Where would the spare 365s go?
 
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