Row over female-only compartments being used by transgender people on Caledonian sleeper service

Bromley boy · 3 Apr 2018

B&I said:
No (sensible) person has any problem with people in that situation, who can presumably prove theue transgender status with a medical certificate.

Where the problems begin is with the notion that an individual person should be able to choose their gender at any given moment in the same way they'd change their footwear, and that the whole of the rest of society should re-mould itself around that individual's unchallengeable decision, to the extent of everyone else abandoning any expectation of performing intimate functions in the absence of the opposite sex

Quite.

Unfortunately the frothing pro-trans lobby is moving society from the former situation to the latter.

On the last trans thread several posters had no problem with “trans” male rapists being housed in women only prisons o_O

, so you’re probably wasting your breath by making reasonable points in this discussion, in any case.

RailUK Forums

pemma · 3 Apr 2018

WombatDeath said:
My understanding is that the main concern is not around trans people behaving inappropriately, but rather non-trans men pretending to identify as women purely to get access to women.

Some people can more convincingly dress as the opposite sex than others. That doesn't mean the person who is obviously a man dressed as a woman is more of a threat to women than the man who pulls it off. It also doesn't mean women can't be a threat to other women or that women can't be a threat to men.

robbeech · 3 Apr 2018

The thread is about CS allowing passengers to choose their gender in order to get a bed on their trains. This will be abused by people but let’s hope it is abused in order to get a bed rather than any other reasons.
In my opinion the easiest way to solve this is to stop sharing with people you don’t know all together. That immediately solves the problem. Yes, there will then be capacity issues, and there will have to be price increases. But people want an immediate solution to this and this has to be the only one in the short term.

al78 · 3 Apr 2018

Marklund said:
So you're not an expert, and only read the sensationalist threads.
You can easily say that about ANY internet forum...

DING

Irrational attitudes are present across the entire spectrum of humanity, not just in categories certain individuals choose to put certain people with an identifiable but irrelevant characteristic into.

pemma · 3 Apr 2018

Bromley boy said:
On the last trans thread several posters had no problem with “trans” male rapists being housed in women only prisons

If a male rapist (trans or not) is found guilty of raping men, not women, then maybe they are better placed in a women's prison?

SPADTrap · 3 Apr 2018

al78 said:
DING

Irrational attitudes are present across the entire spectrum of humanity, not just in categories certain individuals choose to put certain people with an identifiable but irrelevant characteristic into.

Especially on here :lol:

Wombat · 3 Apr 2018

jcollins said:
Some people can more convincingly dress as the opposite sex than others. That doesn't mean the person who is obviously a man dressed as a woman is more of a threat to women than the man who pulls it off. It also doesn't mean women can't be a threat to other women or that women can't be a threat to men.

I agree, and for completeness it doesn't mean that men can't be a threat to other men (obviously). But there are physical differences that disadvantage the average woman in a fight with the average man, and we know which of the scenarios that you describe is the most common.

I think that it comes down to the fact that some women (not all) are uncomfortable sharing accommodation with trans women who don't have a GRC. Other women will be uncomfortable even with a GRC, and others won't care. Anecdotally, the few women I've spoken to about this fall into the first camp. The question is whether this discomfort is sufficient reason to prohibit trans women (and I suppose trans men) without a GRC from using this accommodation. To be honest I think that the sleeper is a relatively uninteresting aspect of the wider question; I suspect that those women who are uncomfortable will just decline to travel on it. Places like prisons and domestic violence refuges are probably a more pressing matter.

Marklund · 3 Apr 2018

WombatDeath said:
I agree, and for completeness it doesn't mean that men can't be a threat to other men (obviously). But there are physical differences that disadvantage the average woman in a fight with the average man, and we know which of the scenarios that you describe is the most common.

I think that it comes down to the fact that some women (not all) are uncomfortable sharing accommodation with trans women who don't have a GRC. Other women will be uncomfortable even with a GRC, and others won't care. Anecdotally, the few women I've spoken to about this fall into the first camp. The question is whether this discomfort is sufficient reason to prohibit trans women (and I suppose trans men) without a GRC from using this accommodation. To be honest I think that the sleeper is a relatively uninteresting aspect of the wider question; I suspect that those women who are uncomfortable will just decline to travel on it. Places like prisons and domestic violence refuges are probably a more pressing matter.

Couldn't have put it better.

GatwickDepress · 3 Apr 2018

What an absolute cesspool this thread is. Full of prejudice and strawmen of the lowest calibre.

rebmcr · 3 Apr 2018

GatwickDepress said:
What an absolute cesspool this thread is. Full of prejudice and strawmen of the lowest calibre.

Hear hear.

PHILIPE · 3 Apr 2018

This didn't used to be a problem. Why now ?

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2018

PHILIPE said:
This didn't used to be a problem. Why now ?

Because trans people were often oppressed and forced to do things based on their birth gender?

Bromley boy · 3 Apr 2018

PHILIPE said:
This didn't used to be a problem. Why now ?

These threads do show how polarised the U.K. is becoming.

There no longer seems to be a middle ground between extreme PC double-think on the one hand and increasing religious conservatism on the other!

I’m not sure that’s progress!

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2018

Bromley boy said:
These threads do show how polarised the U.K. is becoming.

There no longer seems to be a middle ground between extreme PC double-think on the one hand and increasing religious conservatism on the other!

I’m not sure that’s progress!

That is a very good point. I like to occupy the middle ground by and large (not just in politics) but it does seem people with such views are hated by both sides and there is little room for compromise any more - you seem to have to be either quite heavily right wing or an extreme liberal who takes offence on others' behalf. On a political level that is quite worrying as there is one place alone where that leads - war.

alxndr · 3 Apr 2018

WombatDeath said:
I think that it comes down to the fact that some women (not all) are uncomfortable sharing accommodation with trans women who don't have a GRC. Other women will be uncomfortable even with a GRC, and others won't care. Anecdotally, the few women I've spoken to about this fall into the first camp. The question is whether this discomfort is sufficient reason to prohibit trans women (and I suppose trans men) without a GRC from using this accommodation.

There are many issues with requiring a GRC (Gender Recognition Certificate) for someone to use gendered facilities:

Requests to produce a GRC are generally unlawful (although birth certificates can be requested and these can only be amended with a GRC).
Picking and choosing who to ask for their birth certificate could quite easily target those early on in transition, so everyone would have to be asked. Is the whole population ready and willing to show their birth certificates all the time?
A great many trans people never obtain a GRC as it has very little practical benefit aside from some additional legal protection and allowing the change of sex marker on birth certificate, HMRC, and marriage documents.
A GRC can only be obtained after living in the target gender for at least two years. If everywhere required a GRC/birth certificate to let people do this it would become impossible to obtain.
Requiring a GRC/birth certificate means that those who are not in receipt of one bearing their correct gender would have to share the berth with someone of the opposite gender, even if they are clearly male/female presenting and haven't been seen as their birth gender for years. I can't imagine either party would be particularly happy in that situation, especially as it could "out" the trans person.

A middle ground might be to require some form of ID for travel, whether that's a passport or driving licence. The berth could then match the gender displayed on the document. Most trans people update one or both of these documents fairly quickly, so wouldn't be much of a barrier, but I can't see the supposed perverts being so keen to do so (and honestly, I'm yet to be convinced of their existence).

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2018

alxndr said:
A middle ground might be to require some form of ID for travel, whether that's a passport or driving licence. The berth could then match the gender displayed on the document. Most trans people update one or both of these documents fairly quickly, so wouldn't be much of a barrier, but I can't see the supposed perverts being so keen to do so (and honestly, I'm yet to be convinced of their existence).

The difficulty there is people who possess neither. I think, for practical reasons (who has printed utility bills now?) the ID card will make a comeback. And possibly an online equivalent - it might for instance be possible to prove your "official gender" online.

westv · 3 Apr 2018

The point seems to be what defines our sex?
If a woman was unfortunate enough to lose both breasts and womb she would still be considered a woman so is it any wonder that some consider a woman who has surgery to become a man still female and vice versa?
Is our sex only truly defined at a genetic level or is there more fluidity than that?

maire23 · 3 Apr 2018

Bletchleyite said:
It might be surprising, but sadly not. In particular there is quite a lot of biphobia in the gay community. A lot of gay blokes seem to think that people being bi is because they refuse to accept they are gay. Whereas I think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that sexuality is in fact somewhat of a continuum, with more people being bi in some form than is immediately apparent (particularly as some bi people will choose only to have straight or indeed gay relationships, in which case nobody will ever be the wiser).

I’ve had a lot of biphobia- I identify as a bi femme woman and have had relationships with both men and women although I’m in a long term relationship with a man currently. I’ve come across quite a lot of lesbian women who won’t entertain having a relationship with a bi woman and although my ex was an out lesbian all the other women I have had relationships with were bi. I disagree with the ‘being secretly gay’ thing- I truly believe it is possible to be attracted to both men and women (I can’t get my head around the pansexual thing)
As for sharing a berth Im not sure whether I would be comfortable sharing with anyone I didn’t know, on a journey like that I would need a carer anyway (probably my partner) so I doubt I would ever be in the situation but I can see the argument.

underbank · 3 Apr 2018

Surely the transgender issue is going to force a mixture of "mixed sex" areas like unisex toilets with individual cubicles and more "single occupancy" rooms in hostels, sleeper trains, etc. I think that we're shortly going to see the end of separate Male/female toilets and the end of double sleeping berths and multi-occupancy rooms in hostels etc. It's the only way to address the issue of transgenders and transitioners.

Personally, I'd be happy to see the end of dual occupancy sleeping berths. I have no wish to share with someone of even the same sex, let alone the opposite sex or someone transitioning. I think single occupancy will become the default/norm, with joint occupancy only available for people booking together. If that means paying more for guaranteed single occupancy, then it's a price I'm happy to pay.

As for sports changing rooms, single sex toilets, etc., I've always hated the mixed open environment, of central benches, urinals etc., and much prefer cubicles. I just don't see how you can accommodate transgender/transitioning in that kind of open/visible environment.

We're going to see a massive change in facilities across the board to cope with modern day issues, which can't come soon enough. Everyone, whether male, female, gay, trans, etc., needs and deserves privacy and safety. If that means getting rid of the open single sex facilities and joint sleeping berths/dormitories, then all for the good. Better privacy, safety and security for everyone must be the right way to go forward, so sex becomes irrelevant.

A0wen · 3 Apr 2018

bunnahabhain said:
Yeah, along with Gay Men only, and Lesbian Women only carriages. In the Daily Mail world, only Straight Men rape.

No - you got the wrong paper. You're thinking of the Guardian, where the only cause of any problem in the world at present is white men. Ideally white middle class men, but white men will suffice where necessary.

PeterC · 3 Apr 2018

robbeech said:
The thread is about CS allowing passengers to choose their gender in order to get a bed on their trains. This will be abused by people but let’s hope it is abused in order to get a bed rather than any other reasons.
In my opinion the easiest way to solve this is to stop sharing with people you don’t know all together. That immediately solves the problem. Yes, there will then be capacity issues, and there will have to be price increases. But people want an immediate solution to this and this has to be the only one in the short term.

Just what I was about to post.

6Gman · 3 Apr 2018

MCSHF007 said:
In the interests of the equality 'preached' by so many 'right on' activists these days I trust there are also 'men only' carriages on this service.

There are no "women only" carriages.

There are shared berths (and have been for generations) where strangers - of the same gender - can share.

Personally, I would never entertain the notion of sharing such a berth with any stranger, whatever their gender.

Scotrail84 · 3 Apr 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Mumsnet is good at that. I really wouldn't want the vast majority of its inhabitants to mother my child...

Feminists. Some really horrible people on that forum.

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2018

underbank said:
Surely the transgender issue is going to force a mixture of "mixed sex" areas like unisex toilets with individual cubicles and more "single occupancy" rooms in hostels, sleeper trains, etc. I think that we're shortly going to see the end of separate Male/female toilets and the end of double sleeping berths and multi-occupancy rooms in hostels etc. It's the only way to address the issue of transgenders and transitioners.

I don't think multi-occupancy is as much of an issue. The idea of a multi-occupancy room in a hostel where everyone sleeps clothed and changes in a private changing area still works, particularly where bunks are designed to be self contained by having a privacy curtain etc. It's intimate sharing that doesn't.

And that's precisely the reason I think it's a big shame the "pod flatbeds" didn't work out.

Marklund · 3 Apr 2018

6Gman said:
There are no "women only" carriages.

There are shared berths (and have been for generations) where strangers - of the same gender - can share.

Caledonian Sleeper Website said:
Sole travellers may be obliged to share with another guest of the same sex

That's not the same thing though, which is the whole point, at least until sharing with strangers goes.

Marklund · 3 Apr 2018

Bletchleyite said:
And that's precisely the reason I think it's a big shame the "pod flatbeds" didn't work out.

Completely agree with that.

duffield · 3 Apr 2018

whhistle said:
I must set that reminder to change my gender later in life so I can claim my pension earlier (IE, women can claim their pensions earlier than men).

Not true unless you are retiring in 2018. Pension age is equalised by the end of this year.

duffield · 3 Apr 2018

westv said:
Is our sex only truly defined at a genetic level or is there more fluidity than that?

It's more complicated. Think of your genetics as a musical score. In most people the score is played as written. In other cases, parts of the score are ignored or 'played in a different key' or something.

A really good example is AIS - Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome. This can result in a person with the 'male' XY chromosones, but a pretty much 'normal' female physique (in the case of CAIS - Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome).
For transgender people it's more complicated and the science is less settled but there seems to be some sort of thing involving the brain structures being more typical of the opposite sex to the body. It's complicated by the fact that the brain is more complex and less well understood than other organs.

Anyhow, if anyone ever says that 'It's as simple as XY=Male XX=Female' this is provably wrong due to AIS.

theageofthetra · 3 Apr 2018

EM2 said:
And you would let a stranger into the cubicle that you're using in a nightclub, stadium or office?

But as far as I'm aware, the Caledonian Sleeper doesn't run in India. Does your acquaintance who works in security work in India too?
I don't deny that unscrupulous people install covert cameras in toilets, but where is the evidence that this is done by people 'pretending' to be another gender, especially in the UK?

There have been several cases in Australia where Airbnb is particularly popular where an unscrupulous homeowner has put in secret cameras to capture female guests.

No my friend doesn't work in India but I have worked previously with several people who have worked on outsourcing projects and their female colleagues based out there were warned about it by the Indian ladies they worked with.

Stop trying to deny it goes on.

I'm not suggesting it is trans people doing this but by giving perverted men easier access to previously only female spaces will not help.

theageofthetra · 3 Apr 2018

aar0 said:
Why not just wear a cleaners outfit and save yourself the hassle of a close shave and makeup?

That is exactly how it's been done in some hotels. I'll try and find the article on a recent prosecution abroad over it but I think its behind a paywall if you view from the UK.

Row over female-only compartments being used by transgender people on Caledonian sleeper service

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