SPADs and the prospect of being easily sacked.

Hi guys and girls,

I wondered if any experienced drivers could draw some insight into SPAD’s and sackable offences due to mistakes etc on the railway.

I myself, am lucky enough to be going through trainee driver training at the moment (only week 1 so far and really enjoying it).
One thing that makes me nervous is we continuously hear on a daily basis about drivers SPADing and making other mistakes and being sacked with no real chance of being employed elsewhere.

Is this a common occurrence? How easy is it to SPAD and make other mistakes?
Are you always looking over your shoulder and worried about your careers?

Sorry if it sounds like a silly thread, I am just looking for insight from the experience on this forum as it’s all very new and unnerving for me!

Many thanks.

I'm currently a driver on Metrolink so while it isn't heavy rail, SPAD incidents can still occur. From the publications and notices I've read at work, nearly all SPADs are down to driver error, mainly due to lack of concentration/distraction such as taking your eye off the signal, misreading the signal, and anticipating that a signal which normally clears on approach doesn't on one occasion, and by the time the driver realises it isn't going to change it's too late to stop!
Going off my own personal experience, all I would say is stick to a strict cab routine and drive the way you were trained, sticking to rules and procedures and you'll be absolutely fine!
However, one SPAD you may be involved in no matter how vigilant you are is a "Category B" SPAD. I had the misfortune to have one of these a couple of years back, and while it isn't your fault, it's still a frightening experience. A "Category B" SPAD is one where you are approaching a signal which is clear or you, but then suddenly goes back to red with no chance of you stopping in time. The common causes of this are usually equipment failure or human error on the part of the signaller.
A "Category B" SPAD does go on your record, however it will show up that it isn't your fault.
Best advice I can offer is stay vigilant, maintain cab routine and you won't go wrong.
Enjoy your new career!

PotentialTrain said:

Hi guys and girls,

I wondered if any experienced drivers could draw some insight into SPAD’s and sackable offences due to mistakes etc on the railway.

I myself, am lucky enough to be going through trainee driver training at the moment (only week 1 so far and really enjoying it).
One thing that makes me nervous is we continuously hear on a daily basis about drivers SPADing and making other mistakes and being sacked with no real chance of being employed elsewhere.

Is this a common occurrence? How easy is it to SPAD and make other mistakes?
Are you always looking over your shoulder and worried about your careers?

Sorry if it sounds like a silly thread, I am just looking for insight from the experience on this forum as it’s all very new and unnerving for me!

Many thanks.

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I've been a little concerned about this too.
Having read a few threads I reckon it's a case of sticking to the rules, developing good routines and not becoming complacent. It's always going to be a concern but I think if it wasn't that's when you're most likely to get a SPAD!

Also think of the numbers involved. The toc we're at had approx 9 SPADS in a rolling 12 month period, yet there must be at least 150 drivers employed to cover the routes and 7 day week. The vast majority of drivers won't SPAD.

Concentrate on the training mate! Certainly not something you should be concerned about on week 1!

The more your training progresses and the more you get to understand how the signalling works etc you will come up with your own ways of mitigating against such incidents and you won’t think about it!

Like I say concentrate on your training...... if you’re only in week one you’ve a million and one other concerns to consider long before spad’s really become something to worry about..... forget the driving for now concentrate on passing the course.

You’ll be awesome I’m sure so stop worrying about employment risks etc enjoy the fact you’re on a course for now..... thousands haven’t

SPADs happen, but, unless you had made some very very serious errors and passed a red at 100 having ignored a double and single yellow you would not be sacked for a "normal" SPAD, that is sliding past by a few feet or coach lengths. Unless you'd had several

The most important thing is you do have a SPAD or any kind of incident is to follow the correct procedure. This means you must report it to the signaller straight away. never ever try to cover an incident up, you will be sacked for that as it will be deemed more serious than the incident itself.
The usual course of action after an incident is to be monitored for several months with discreet downloads of the trains data recorder to make sure your complying with the TOCs driving policy and having several cab rides with a Driver manager.
Don't let it being your mind when driving about having a SPAD etc or you will become so anxious and end up not performing to the best if your ability.
Once again NEVER NEVER try to cover up an incident ALWAYS report it to the signaller and follow instructions given to you.

Exactly the above. The incident itself can be one thing and how you react afterwards can be the make or break if you. Your reaction can also affect the incident itself and make it less seveare for example if passenger safety is in jeopardy.

The main thing is.....concentrate on what you are doing right now and learn the rules properly, not just exam answers.

In the real world it’s all about how you maintain your concentration for those crucial times in the day and what method works.

Don’t worry I can assure you every driver wants to do everything possible to mitigate the risks and strict self discipline is the main element

Thanks all for the replies, it’s great to hear insight from experienced drivers!

Now back to the revision!

WrongRoad said:

The most important thing is you do have a SPAD or any kind of incident is to follow the correct procedure. This means you must report it to the signaller straight away. never ever try to cover an incident up, you will be sacked for that as it will be deemed more serious than the incident itself.
The usual course of action after an incident is to be monitored for several months with discreet downloads of the trains data recorder to make sure your complying with the TOCs driving policy and having several cab rides with a Driver manager.
Don't let it being your mind when driving about having a SPAD etc or you will become so anxious and end up not performing to the best if your ability.
Once again NEVER NEVER try to cover up an incident ALWAYS report it to the signaller and follow instructions given to you.

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This in spades.

Yes, having a SPAD is not a great position to be in but we live in the real world and they happen. If you carry out the correct procedure afterwards (and depending on the circumstances - it's one thing to misjudge your braking and pass a signal by a few feet and completely another to sail past a signal at full chat without the hint of braking) you'll be having a difficult conversation with your manager where a corrective action plan will be established and a black mark on your record but shouldn't be the end of your world. Try covering it up and your feet won't touch the ground in how quick you'll end up on the street.

As a newbie, you're obviously at greater risk of having a SPAD so it's imperative you get into a good routine and remember all the tricks you have been taught (commentary driving, stay hydrated, don't pig out at lunch time, hell, even Japanese style saluting the signal if it works for you!).

With new drivers, I find the real danger time is around 6 months in. You are now comfortable in the cab, alarms and warning now longer have you jumping 6 feet in the air and you think you know everything. This is when complacency may catch you out.

Remember the old saying, a train drivers job is the hardest to get but the easiest to lose.

Nobody gets themselves in a SPAD voluntarily, it happens to the newbies and the experienced drivers.
Like it’s been mentioned it’s how you act after the incident.
I know many drivers who have a few SPADS on their record and are still driving.

Concentrate on your training. You have a long way to go before you’ll be in a position to worry about SPADs.

RBSN said:

Concentrate on your training. You have a long way to go before you’ll be in a position to worry about SPADs.

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Spot on!

Your training course will educate you on SPADS, TPWS incidents and other risks out there. It’s a difficult job to get, but an easy one to loose.

I would echo the sentiments of others and concentrate on your training. You are highly unlikely to have a SPAD or any other incident while you are training. Your instructor won’t let you. The highest risk of incidents is around six months after you have qualified when you start getting comfortable in your role and your concentration starts to slip. To start with your concentration will be through the roof and your will probably be knackered at the end of each day. Once you start gaining confidence is your worst time for potential incidents like SPADs. Part of being a driver is learning how to maintain levels of concentration. When you go through your training you will cover this in a lot of detail. This is where things like “press, call and react” come in.

Can anyone shed any light on if during training a toc decides to let a trainee go how much notice period must they give?

Peppajug78 said:

Can anyone shed any light on if during training a toc decides to let a trainee go how much notice period must they give?

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It depends if you get sacked or not. However, it will be dependent on each TOC and the T&Cs given.

Notice period are in your contract.

Peppajug78 said:

Can anyone shed any light on if during training a toc decides to let a trainee go how much notice period must they give?

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Normally this would be the contractual notice period, which is a week in most cases.

Obviously in the case of summary dismissal for gross misconduct there would be no notice (or payment in lieu of notice) at all, just as with any other role.

PotentialTrain said:

Is this a common occurrence? How easy is it to SPAD and make other mistakes?
Are you always looking over your shoulder and worried about your careers?

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As others have said, you’re at too early a stage to start worrying about it, but it is good to keep it in mind.

Unfortunately the answer is “very easy”! The main thing is not to rush and to recognise when you need to really focus (when you’re tired, it’s dark and you’re approaching a red is one of these times!). Try and develop these techniques when you’re out with your DI and get them to point out the danger areas.

There are drivers who have a string of incidents soon after passing out. The railway is unforgiving and if someone has four of five incidents in their first year or so this may well see them lose their key. It’s a viscous circle as the pressure increases after each incident. Unfortunately a guy from my rules course is already on his “last chance” some 18 months after he passed out so he is now very much in fear for his job.

I’m not saying that to worry you, but be aware that it can and does happen. Make sure you use your training period with your DI to the full and take it very easy as your experience builds up.

EastMidsMatt said:

developing good routines and not becoming complacent.

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That’s the big key to me. If you start from the beginning to develop good driving routines you’ll be fine. And don’t forget to always sort of question yourself: “did I take that yellow seriously?”, “am I doing this according to the rules?” and stuff like this. Works for me.

Full notice periods usually do not come into play until your probation period has finished. If you are new to the company then the statutory minimum of 1 week may apply but as others have said, best off looking in your contract of employment or speak directly with HR. Either way the company may get rid if you straight away but pay you for the notice period without you actually having to work it.

Learn why SPADs occur. Learn how easy it is to have one, and the different situations which unfold to make one happen.
An example is where you slow down to a red, and then it comes off with a junction indicator. SPADs have occurred because Drivers have concentrated on the speed of the crossover, and then accelerated once through it - they've concentrated on the junction indicator, but the aspect below it had stayed yellow.
Learn how to mitigate against those situations - a Personal Protection Strategy. They will teach you these in the classroom and with your Driver Instructor. Risk Triggered Commentary is one.

Whenever you hear about a SPAD or see a notice about one put up in the notice case, think about what are you doing with your approach to driving to mitigate having a SPAD in that situation. It won't necessarily stop you from having one, but if you are thinking like that, and applying techniques or routines as part of your driving, then you will reduce your risk.

Be aware of "Mr Autopilot". As mentioned above, 6 months in and you are feeling settled and doing tasks automatically. That's Mr Autopilot. But you need to train Mr Autopilot to check in with you. As an example, you are driving along happily just like last week when you were on non-stops, and Mr Autopilot thinks he's helping you and has it covered, so you can think about other stuff in your life. But today you should be stopping.
If you always ask yourself and check, "Am I stopping here?" then Mr Autopilot running along on greens at 100mph, just like last week, will ask that question too automatically - and that could save you from a fail to call.

Little routines - so if you are Driver Only, after you've stopped and released the doors, check the signal, "Can I do station duties?" - if you have a red, then no you can't, you've no business doing station duties. You'll check a signal before you pull away of course, but you've given yourself an extra chance.

The biggest problem is becoming distracted. Write things down on your diagram, or a post it note if you have a lot to deal with. Pointing can help, it doesn't have to be at everything like the Japanese, but pointing at the interlock light and the signal before pulling away is a good habit.

Listen to what other drivers do, and see if that'll work for you.

I agree that no Driver sets out to have a serious operating incident. However, I have personally worked with a few Drivers who's attitudes towards the role is unbelievable and shows contempt to the position they are in. Funnily enough, the ones I am thinking of have had a string of serious SOL incidents...
The advice I would give to a new Driver is to never underestimate the environment/job you work in. Make sure you know and fully understand your rules to remain competent/confident and retain the ability to challenge incorrect instructions.
Fit your lifestyle around your job and always aim to get proper sleep and rest between shifts.
Find your own personal ways of guarding against incidents (point and call, commentary driving, marking diagrams etc). Non technical skills is not just 'buzz words' it is a key part of being a competent Train Driver.
Above all, if ever you are unsure of something or get a little niggling feeling in the back of your mind that something isn't right, never take the risk. Always take the safer option. You could potentially have your whole career to regret a wrong decision.

I disagree that you're most at risk 6 months or so in. If you're relaxing to the point of risk that early you've got problems. After a few years incident free that's the huge risk.

Speedbird787 said:

I disagree that you're most at risk 6 months or so in. If you're relaxing to the point of risk that early you've got problems. After a few years incident free that's the huge risk.

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It is widely accepted that you are at your highest risk in your first year with it tapering off till about year 7 and then it spikes again. Drops off again for a few years and you get a small spike again near the end of your career. I did have the statistics to hand but I've misplaced them and the RSSB site is pain in the ass to search.

6 months is actually quite late into your first year. You typically see incidents well within those first 6 months. From the posters above I would suggest they are speaking from experience and that the 6 months is where you tend to settle in and let your guard down.

The first few weeks you tend to drive nervously and you are highly monitored.

Attitude plays a strong part, as highlighted above and the next phase tends to be ego and over confidence. Some new Drivers see it as a release from the shackles of the DI and they get a bit of a know it all attitude. They push the envelope a little and they either ignore their training or their standards have slipped. You get a few early mistakes and, as I said to one of our newbies, you really hope the first mistake is right sided. It tends to put the wind up new Drivers and the reality punch of how easy it is to make a mistake often refocuses you.

Training also plays a huge part here and the railway is filled with experiences that never crop up or are beyond what you have been taught. The lack of experience plays a big part in how you deal with various issues and the smallest error leads to a bigger violation.

There is also a lot of pressure to perform or to obey. Newer Drivers can get lead down the garden path by others, which also leads to incidents. That pressure is high when you first pass and starts to settle as you develop your new skills.

This is where the 6 month bit kicks in. You survive the small mistakes, gain in experience, and start to grow as a Driver. Your guard very much drops. That feeling of 'I've got this' kicks in. Then Boom !

I’m not sure if it’s the current training regimes or the people companies recruit of lately but I noticed increase in new drivers across different depots sitting in mess rooms rather than being out there driving and getting experience because they are too afraid of messing up.

This thread goes in line with it. OP haven’t even finished the training but is already thinking about what happens if...

We are only human and make mistakes. You’re not going to get fired for one mistake.
You are going to be fired if you don’t learn from them.

WCMLaddict said:

I’m not sure if it’s the current training regimes or the people companies recruit of lately but I noticed increase in new drivers across different depots sitting in mess rooms rather than being out there driving and getting experience because they are too afraid of messing up.

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Huh? Surely drivers only drive trains they are booked/rostered to drive? No driver I know would just sit around when he or she should be out driving...wouldn't have a job very long.

It all depends on company of course. Many TOCs have drivers over establishment.
Some depots have 15-20% drivers over. In others, training deficiencies mean that spare drivers with full route and traction card will cover for drivers with deficiencies.

Shove stats and statistics up the proverbial hoop!..... if you go out there with a healthy nervousness/respect for the job you are doing mixed with a little common sense you won’t have a problem!

If you’re the sort that sits there almost like you’re on a sun lounger with your foot over the AWS button vaping like there’s no tomorrow as soon as you’re let off the leash then I’d expect 6 months to be very generous!

Like I said earlier..... you shouldn’t even be thinking about these things anyway...... concentrate on passing the course before thinking about passing reds

It's great to see so many train drivers gathering in a thread. I'm really enjoying it, and thank you because your feedback is invaluable. I'll save this thread for future reference.

I agree though, complacency must be drivers' worst enemy, even on the roads, especially when you are a bit too smug and cocky by nature.