Should Seat Reservations Be Abolished?

whhistle · 5 Apr 2018

neontrix said:
I don't entirely get the point of this question. People, not just families or large groups want to sit together. The fact that people were even charged to reserve seats is ridiculous. If you're trying to make the trains a more customer-hostile environment then banning reservations or applying a surcharge to them is they way to go about it.

The point of the question is to discuss whether seat reservations on trains (for individual seats) should be abolished.
What other people are there that would want to travel together that aren't part of a group, or friends?
Some trains are already hostile because of the reservation problem (see below).

neontrix said:
Seats that are reserved but not occupied are free for anyone to use - if you don't wish to sit there, then don't.

The problem is the move in expectation.
If someone regularly gets on a train that has reserved seats but nobody sitting in that seat, they may regularly sit in that seat. As time goes on, the person may think it's their right to sit in a seat and cause some sort of awkward conversation if someone does turn up to sit in it.

What happens if someone doesn't feel they can challenge the person sitting in "their" seat? So they take another one, then get told off by the owner of that seat.

It's a mess.

I've witnessed people reserve seats, then tell the ticket seller they don't plan on using that train anyway. What a waste of time for the ticket seller, and everyone else in the queue having to wait.

RailUK Forums

yorksrob · 5 Apr 2018

AlterEgo said:
So they would have to know about it in advance? How would people know they could get a seat reservation if they were infrequent travellers? Could you prompt them during the booking process? How would you propose they obtain the reservation?

You could pose the same question regarding non-AP fares, yet the sky hasn't fallen in. If Toc's are that worried, include a line in their posters/advertising campaigns.

Bletchleyite · 5 Apr 2018

Parallel said:
I think another thing to do would be to limit the seat reservation to 1 per ticket on flexible tickets. The ticket number would be registered so you couldn’t use it again to book another seat. This would stop people booking 3 or 4 seats on different trains.

Other than the XC reservation by text thing is anyone actually doing that?

AlterEgo · 5 Apr 2018

yorksrob said:
You could pose the same question regarding non-AP fares, yet the sky hasn't fallen in. If Toc's are that worried, include a line in their posters/advertising campaigns.

But reservations are offered on non-Advance fares.

You’ve neglected to account for the fact (and it is a fact, backed up by market research) above, which is that passengers who buy Advances are much more sensitive about getting a seat reservation.

DarloRich · 5 Apr 2018

Q: Should Seat Reservations Be Abolished?

A: No.

Bertiethebobby · 5 Apr 2018

The paper reservation tickets state the stations from and to the reservation applies so it's a relatively simple job of checking to see if it's still valid as the tickets quite often don't get recovered.
On VT I've noticed that sometimes it'll say "reserved from" which is useful if you're not going all the way.
seat

neontrix · 5 Apr 2018

whhistle said:
What other people are there that would want to travel together that aren't part of a group, or friends?

Couples and two people travelling together are not 'large groups' mentioned as the only people the OP believed deserved reservations.

whhistle said:
What happens if someone doesn't feel they can challenge the person sitting in "their" seat?

It isn't their right to sit in a seat reserved by someone else if the person who reserved it wants that seat. Why should people doing that take away everyones right to reserve seats?

DarloRich · 5 Apr 2018

Bertiethebobby said:
The paper reservation tickets state the stations from and to the reservation applies so it's a relatively simple job of checking to see if it's still valid as the tickets quite often don't get recovered.
On VT I've noticed that sometimes it'll say "reserved from" which is useful if you're not going all the way.
seat

Agreed - what isnt helpful are the displays that simply say: Reserved.

They need to say reserved to and from just like the old school seat back tickets

Bertiethebobby · 5 Apr 2018

I am guilty of occasionally sitting in an "available" seat if my reserved seat is a bit crap ie facing the wrong way, no table, next to the bog etc although there's is now a facility for choosing your seat which is a lot better.
The only time I've had a train manager tell me I was in the wrong seat was on a Glasgow to euston service.

yorksrob · 5 Apr 2018

AlterEgo said:
But reservations are offered on non-Advance fares.

You’ve neglected to account for the fact (and it is a fact, backed up by market research) above, which is that passengers who buy Advances are much more sensitive about getting a seat reservation.

I don't see how I've neglected to take account of that fact, given that under my suggested system, reservations would still be freely available to anyone that wants one.

AlterEgo · 5 Apr 2018

yorksrob said:
I don't see how I've neglected to take account of that fact, given that under my suggested system, reservations would still be freely available to anyone that wants one.

How would they obtain it then? By ticking a big and obvious box during the booking process? Given that you said it wouldn’t be “offered”, but on request, I’m curious as to whether you envision “on request only” to be something the purchaser has to do after they’ve been sold the ticket (and hopefully read TOC literature), or whether you’d just have a big and obvious for the 99% to tick.

yorksrob · 5 Apr 2018

AlterEgo said:
How would they obtain it then? By ticking a big and obvious box during the booking process? Given that you said it wouldn’t be “offered”, but on request, I’m curious as to whether you envision “on request only” to be something the purchaser has to do after they’ve been sold the ticket (and hopefully read TOC literature), or whether you’d just have a big and obvious for the 99% to tick.

Either that, or by asking at the ticket office when they buy the ticket. Much like one would do for a non AP service.

I don't really understand the confusion my suggestion is causing, because it encompasses nothing that doesn't happen already.

AlterEgo · 5 Apr 2018

yorksrob said:
Either that, or by asking at the ticket office when they buy the ticket. Much like one would do for a non AP service.

I don't really understand the confusion my suggestion is causing, because it encompasses nothing that doesn't happen already.

The confusion was where you said you proposed not to offer them but only make them on request - which means that a purchaser firstly has to know it is available and also make an unprompted request for it.

My point is, a key driver in the demographic that purchases Advances is the security of a seat. The reservation should be proactively offered, not “on request”.

I expect the number of seat reservations given out on Advances where people opted in after a clear prompt rather than “on request” would stay pretty much the same. I can’t think of many reasons why you’d decline a free reservation, if asked whether you’d want one.

yorksrob · 5 Apr 2018

AlterEgo said:
The confusion was where you said you proposed not to offer them but only make them on request - which means that a purchaser firstly has to know it is available and also make an unprompted request for it.

My point is, a key driver in the demographic that purchases Advances is the security of a seat. The reservation should be proactively offered, not “on request”.

I expect the number of seat reservations given out on Advances where people opted in after a clear prompt rather than “on request” would stay pretty much the same. I can’t think of many reasons why you’d decline a free reservation, if asked whether you’d want one.

Perhaps, but I wouldn't, and in spite of all those TV adverts claiming how amazing and individual we all supposedly are, I can't imagine I'm the only one.

AlterEgo · 5 Apr 2018

yorksrob said:
Perhaps, but I wouldn't, and in spite of all those TV adverts claiming how amazing and individual we all supposedly are, I can't imagine I'm the only one.

I'm sure you literally aren't the only person but I also think that much less than 1% of seat reservations would be refused, given the choice.

bussnapperwm · 5 Apr 2018

Master29 said:
All trains??? By that do you mean suburban services? Can you imagine one stop TfL services with a reservation..

I was being a bit sarcastic but stupidly forgot to put a

al78 · 5 Apr 2018

neontrix said:
It isn't their right to sit in a seat reserved by someone else if the person who reserved it wants that seat. Why should people doing that take away everyones right to reserve seats?

What does the person who has reserved the seat do, if the person who doesn't have the right to sit there refuses to move?

Get hold of the train manager? They have to find them first, and even then all the person in the seat has to do is to refuse with a threatening attitude, or play the I'm-old-vulnerable-disabled-whatever card, and the train manager won't be able to shift them without risking a potentially nasty conflict, or delaying everyone on the train whilst they wait for the BTP to turn up, so what will likely happen is the person who reserved will have to find somewhere else to sit (or stand). Bullies know how to abuse the system to their advantage, and how to take what they are not entitled too without comeback.

XC victim · 5 Apr 2018

The obvious solution to me would be to keep seat reservations for those who want them but to ensure all services have at least 50% unreserved seats in a clearly marked section. (And ensure intercity services have enough seats to allow the majority of passengers a reasonable chance of a seat - I know a ridiculous idea)

Also a requirement for anyone travelling on an advanced ticket to be sat in their reserved seat.

backontrack · 5 Apr 2018

DarloRich said:
Q: Should Seat Reservations Be Abolished?

A: No.

Agreed. Thread is now locked.

mrcheek · 5 Apr 2018

Q: Should Seat Reservations Be Abolished?

A: Yes

backontrack · 5 Apr 2018

What are the arguments for dispensing with seat reservations?

trainophile · 5 Apr 2018

XC victim said:
Also a requirement for anyone travelling on an advanced ticket to be sat in their reserved seat.

Noooo. Some booking engines don’t offer a direction of travel option. TPE always gives me a backwards seat, and I always try to find a forwards one instead.

xotGD · 5 Apr 2018

If asked the question 'Would you like a guaranteed seat on your booked train?' why would any normal passenger say No?

route101 · 5 Apr 2018

TPE scottish services from Manchester , train is hoachin with most of the seats with reservation labels and full and standing . Problem is small train .
I like unreserved carriages though on VT its now in smaller Coach C .

XC victim · 5 Apr 2018

backontrack said:
What are the arguments for dispensing with seat reservations?

In my view the arguments for dispensing with seat reservations are;

They can lead to an increase in passengers without seats due to uncertainty as to whether a seat is free or reserved (especially with electronic reservation system which do not give full details of any further reservations for a seat)

They lead to congestion when passengers board at stations as they are looking for specific seats rather than just the first available seat.

They can lead to conflict when people are not aware they are sat in a seat reserved by someone else.

They lead to passengers ending up sitting in seats they are not happy with (ie facing the wrong direction)

The pro points for seat reservations are;

Groups are able to sit together

Those less able to stand can be guaranteed a seat (but as we know this is often not the case)

LeeLivery · 5 Apr 2018

XC victim said:
Also a requirement for anyone travelling on an advanced ticket to be sat in their reserved seat.

I rarely sit in my reserved seat because it 9 times out of 10 it puts me around a table, sitting backwards (EMT). Never has a member of staff said anything to me about it. As long as you're on the right train and in the right class, what's the problem? I'd rather the seat reservation for advance tickets be optional and be able to choose where I want to sit, as I do it regardless. Lots of people sit wherever; on trains with paper reservations, just take the reservation off to allow someone else to sit there.

Edit: But no, I don't want to see reservations gone.

bramling · 5 Apr 2018

backontrack said:
What are the arguments for dispensing with seat reservations?

Four pages of posts mostly complaining about how the current system is often beset with issues and problems.

Personally I'd say reservations create more problems than they solve, but no doubt there are people who value them otherwise they wouldn't exist.

Tetchytyke · 5 Apr 2018

All this jumping through hoops to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

When do I get to choose my reservation? At the time of booking? In which case, who on earth is going to select "no reservation"?

We're all guilty of moving seats of we've got rubbish seats and there are free ones. Someone else can always take our seat. But who wouldn't prefer a guaranteed rubbish seat to no seat at all?

XC victim · 5 Apr 2018

trainophile said:
Noooo. Some booking engines don’t offer a direction of travel option. TPE always gives me a backwards seat, and I always try to find a forwards one instead.

This would be the disadvantage of travelling on a cheaper advance ticket. Those passengers wishing to choose their own seats would have to travel on more expensive open tickets which do not tie them to a particular train or seat.

At the moment we are usually in the situation where passengers with cheaper advance tickets get seats but those passengers travelling on more expensive seats have to stand.

Tetchytyke · 5 Apr 2018

bramling said:
Personally I'd say reservations create more problems than they solve

Travelling between intermediate stations on a busy main line, I'd have no chance of a seat if I didn't reserve. Good luck to anyone getting on at, say, Peterborough if reservations get abolished. The chance of getting a seat on busy trains would be nil.

Should Seat Reservations Be Abolished?

On Moderation

RailUK Forums

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member