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Stagecoach, First etc policies regarding which places get brand new buses

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175mph

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In Scunthorpe, the main bus operator is Stagecoach. But the last time we got brand new buses was in 2004 in the RoadCar days, and ever since Stagecoach took over, Scunthorpe has never, ever had a single brand new bus, (unless you count the buses for the 350 Fastcat route to Hull), instead using 'cast offs' from other depots such as Grimsby. The newest we ever had was some single decker Enviros that were about just over three years old at the time of the Scunthorpe depot receiving them.

If your town or city is served by Stagecoach, First or any other major business operator, what's the policy of getting new buses? Does it periodically get brand new buses or just 'cast offs' from elsewhere?
 
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Stagecoach in Bedford as of late has only been receiving 'cast-off' buses from Peterborough. The last set of new buses acquired by Bedford, excluding the 64-plate coaches for the X5, was a small fleet of 63-plate Enviro 200s liveried for the Kempston Park & Ride service. 53-plate and 06-plate Darts, 53-plate and 06-plate Solos and 51-plate ALX300s form the main consist of their bus fleet, with some 11-plate Enviro 400s used for the Kempston circular service. Around 3 years ago, Bedford acquired five 08-plate Enviro 200s, and last year acquired five 60-plate Enviro 400s and three 06-plate Darts from Peterborough.

So Bedford's situation isn't quite as bad as Scunthorpe's, but I expect the trend to continue of Bedford receiving displaced buses from Peterborough and/or Cambridge rather than new buses of their own.
 

Rapidash

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I'm always surprised at the frequency new or newish buses appear in Devon for Stagecoach. I guess the tourist areas pay for it and then some during the holidays.
 

Surreyman

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In Scunthorpe, the main bus operator is Stagecoach. But the last time we got brand new buses was in 2004 in the RoadCar days, and ever since Stagecoach took over, Scunthorpe has never, ever had a single brand new bus, (unless you count the buses for the 350 Fastcat route to Hull), instead using 'cast offs' from other depots such as Grimsby. The newest we ever had was some single decker Enviros that were about just over three years old at the time of the Scunthorpe depot receiving them.

If your town or city is served by Stagecoach, First or any other major business operator, what's the policy of getting new buses? Does it periodically get brand new buses or just 'cast offs' from elsewhere?
I think all the major operators allocate new vehicles to the most profitable routes (Or at least to routes which have a high public profile), this has been going on since the days of De-Regulation/Privatisation, from a business perspective this is the most sensible thing to do, given asset write down values.
I note that Scunthorpe had one of the worst ratings for air pollution in the country, that might encourage Stagecoach to allocate some token new buses for good PR!
 

175mph

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I think all the major operators allocate new vehicles to the most profitable routes (Or at least to routes which have a high public profile), this has been going on since the days of De-Regulation/Privatisation, from a business perspective this is the most sensible thing to do, given asset write down values.
I note that Scunthorpe had one of the worst ratings for air pollution in the country, that might encourage Stagecoach to allocate some token new buses for good PR!
Some E200 MMCs running on biofuel perhaps?
 

AJW12

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It's a funny one - trying to find the balance between purchasing new buses for routes that are very profitable and deserve them, but also purchasing new buses to actually invest in a decent service so passengers actually feel welcome and attracted to the buses.

Stagecoach seem to do a fairly good job, and because they purchase so many new buses it means there are a good amount of decent cascades. Whereas with First, their complete lack of investment anywhere last calendar year (apart from Bristol) leaves so many areas crying out for investment for several years now. Just gives passengers a bad perspective of buses, I know many people in York who have abandoned the bus after being stuck daily on crappy old, tired looking, uncomfortable and noisy buses. And as one of them, I don't blame them.

Even if it's just refurbishments (Transdev do a lot of those) it ignites some life in a bus service.
 

GusB

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We've still got 07/08 plate Enviro 200s running around here. They tend to buy a new batch of vehicles for the 10 Inverness - Aberdeen service every few years, but our local route rarely sees anything new. I was pleasantly surprised to have a bit of variation when I went into town on a Volvo B7R and came back on a B12B, but they were still getting on a bit (07/09 plates respectively).
 

Stef434

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In Scunthorpe, the main bus operator is Stagecoach. But the last time we got brand new buses was in 2004 in the RoadCar days, and ever since Stagecoach took over, Scunthorpe has never, ever had a single brand new bus, (unless you count the buses for the 350 Fastcat route to Hull), instead using 'cast offs' from other depots such as Grimsby. The newest we ever had was some single decker Enviros that were about just over three years old at the time of the Scunthorpe depot receiving them.

If your town or city is served by Stagecoach, First or any other major business operator, what's the policy of getting new buses? Does it periodically get brand new buses or just 'cast offs' from elsewhere?

FirstBus plans on new bus investment is not very straightforward.
take in to account depreciation value of present stock
five year business plans
rotation of stock to suit opco (i.e tenders won lost)
site closure (last resort)
 

goldisgood

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Oxford's fleet is amazingly new, the oldest buses on main routes are from 2009 which are due to be replaced this year, with I think 2 2003 Darts at Banbury for a council contract and a few older Solos in reserve. Investment is pretty much yearly, so I guess we have it pretty well off!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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At the end of the day, bus companies are just that - companies. They are commercial entities that look to make money. They target their investment in order to get the best returns, which is what their shareholders also look to achieve. In this instance, bus companies will invest in those routes and areas where they can achieve the best returns, which makes absolute sense. This is either in terms of commercial growth, tied contracts (e.g. University services, Park and Ride etc), council tenders (much less common now) or as part of a quality partnership - all of these will have a financial benefit to the operator.

Stagecoach were very clever in the past by being able to cascade vehicles from London (when they were relatively standard) or from Manchester into less lucrative territory (i.e. the initial balance sheet "hit" was borne by the most lucrative operations). This allowed relatively modern vehicles to be cascaded and so improve services so that, in some cases, they were able to then sustain new vehicles. There have also been examples of OpCos justifying new investment for other reasons (e.g. North Devon Wave).

It all boils down to the OpCos (of any firm) creating a business case to justify the investment and being able to stand behind that case. Imagine if you get a 2million investment in new vehicles and it DOESN'T deliver the returns and then, as the local MD, you have to justify that?

There are, of course, some initiatives that come from the centre. OpCos may not particularly want that investment - how the First FTR concept got signed off, I will never know? Similarly, the Ashford minibus experiment may also have a certain amount of leeway from Stagecoach board.

It's not like the olden days when bus companies allocated a new bus to some rural depot just because it was a "nice thing to do". The last Bristol VRs delivered to Crosville were delivered to Llangefni, Aberaeron and Aberystwyth..... Mental!
 

Surreyman

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At the end of the day, bus companies are just that - companies. They are commercial entities that look to make money. They target their investment in order to get the best returns, which is what their shareholders also look to achieve. In this instance, bus companies will invest in those routes and areas where they can achieve the best returns, which makes absolute sense. This is either in terms of commercial growth, tied contracts (e.g. University services, Park and Ride etc), council tenders (much less common now) or as part of a quality partnership - all of these will have a financial benefit to the operator.

Stagecoach were very clever in the past by being able to cascade vehicles from London (when they were relatively standard) or from Manchester into less lucrative territory (i.e. the initial balance sheet "hit" was borne by the most lucrative operations). This allowed relatively modern vehicles to be cascaded and so improve services so that, in some cases, they were able to then sustain new vehicles. There have also been examples of OpCos justifying new investment for other reasons (e.g. North Devon Wave).

It all boils down to the OpCos (of any firm) creating a business case to justify the investment and being able to stand behind that case. Imagine if you get a 2million investment in new vehicles and it DOESN'T deliver the returns and then, as the local MD, you have to justify that?

There are, of course, some initiatives that come from the centre. OpCos may not particularly want that investment - how the First FTR concept got signed off, I will never know? Similarly, the Ashford minibus experiment may also have a certain amount of leeway from Stagecoach board.

It's not like the olden days when bus companies allocated a new bus to some rural depot just because it was a "nice thing to do". The last Bristol VRs delivered to Crosville were delivered to Llangefni, Aberaeron and Aberystwyth..... Mental!
It will be interesting to see how the forthcoming LEZs impacts on the allocation of Stagecoaches 2018/2019 orders, particularly in Scotland (Euro 6 Retrofits not withstanding).
 

richw

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FirstBus plans on new bus investment is not very straightforward.
take in to account depreciation value of present stock
five year business plans
rotation of stock to suit opco (i.e tenders won lost)
site closure (last resort)

First group did a statement a few months back they will only be investing in areas where there are supportive local authorities. Cornwall, Bristol, York all spring to mind instantly as having supporting LAs
 

TheGrandWazoo

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First group did a statement a few months back they will only be investing in areas where there are supportive local authorities. Cornwall, Bristol, York all spring to mind instantly as having supporting LAs

First usually get a load of stick (some justified, some just histrionic "we're all doomed" faffing) but I did feel that it was a rather convenient way of excusing the reduced capital spend this year.

There's some decent investment for Leeds and Sheffield for regular fleet replacement, and of course, for Cornwall. Some also for Bristol (Metrobus) though a fair chunk is actually for contracts. Same for York.

For somewhere like Buses of Somerset, the local council aren't bothered about bus services and so you'll just see the usual pattern of cascades.
 

richw

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First usually get a load of stick (some justified, some just histrionic "we're all doomed" faffing) but I did feel that it was a rather convenient way of excusing the reduced capital spend this year.

There's some decent investment for Leeds and Sheffield for regular fleet replacement, and of course, for Cornwall. Some also for Bristol (Metrobus) though a fair chunk is actually for contracts. Same for York.

For somewhere like Buses of Somerset, the local council aren't bothered about bus services and so you'll just see the usual pattern of cascades.

An onside Local Authority brings better security. Cornwall council are very pro public transport and have a huge transport budget. It gives better guarantee to the operator that tenders and subsidies aren't as likely to be pulled, and that gives better security to investment.
Cornwall Council have invested in contactless ticketing for all their partners (same equipment as First and Citybus introduced). Even the smallest operator has contactless. To my knowledge Stagecoach at Launceston/Bude and Saltash are the only operators within cornwall without contactless payments as these routes are commercial. CC are upgrading all of the bus stations. They've installed live running screens across the county, and are in consultation to try and connect bus and trains. Penzance bus station screens now show both train and bus live running.
 

Andyh82

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not like the olden days when bus companies allocated a new bus to some rural depot just because it was a "nice thing to do". The last Bristol VRs delivered to Crosville were delivered to Llangefni, Aberaeron and Aberystwyth..... Mental!
Although doesn’t Stagecoach at least allocate some new buses to most operations at least occasionally?

Manchester, Oxford etc gets loads but other places may get a small number every few years. Even the worst performing operations all probably have a best performing depot or a key profitable corridor.

Unlike what seems to now be the current First policy where some operations look set to never get new buses ever.

I’m wondering if any First operation in Yorkshire outside of Leeds and Sheffield (excluding the P&R contract in York) will get anything new any time soon? Yet Stagecoach buys new for Barnsley, Arriva buys new for places like Heckmondwike and Castleford.
 

Dentonian

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Stagecoach Manchester (and I've heard North East are the same) don't invest in profitable services per se. Its straightforward "Free Market v Captive Market, like their fares. If a captive market service gets new buses, they won't last for long before being quietly syphoned off to other routes. Additionally, their Engineering staff have reverted back to the old "a bus is a bus is a bus" ethos whereby branding has become largely irrelevant and you will get a mix of types on many services. For instance, a lot of hybrid routes are seeing MagicBuses over the Easter holidays. Someone also mentioned Transdev's policy of refurbishment. This seems to no longer happen at Stagecoach with buses not getting new seat cushions until cascaded from "normal" service to MagicBus, which means 10yo MagicBus E400s are superior to the 9yo examples that have replaced 2yo MMCs on many workings.

Regarding First Manchester; someone mentioned Tenders. First M'cr regularly used to put 16+ yo buses on TFGM (all day) tenders, whilst complaining about others doing the same! TFGM contracts specify buses must be under 15 years old, based on age at 1 September each year. Fortunately, in this context, First don't have a high proportion of Tenders and anyway, 33x 16-18 yo buses are expected to be withdrawn this weekend.
 

Tetchytyke

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Arriva buys new for places like Heckmondwike and Castleford.

Not so much, they tend to move newer buses into Leeds from elsewhere. There's a minor fuss up here as all the MAX standard hybrids have gone off to Wakefield, replaced by older and less luxurious buses. Leeds are imposing a LEZ, you see. So much for the promises of milk and honey if Nexus didn't impose quality contracts!

Given the way depreciation works, profitable operations will (usually*) get new buses more regularly. They can sustain the initial balance sheet hit. Put new buses into Scunthorpe and RoadCar might actually post a loss. Sometimes that might be financially usefu for the parent company, but generally it won't be.

(*Stageecoach Newcastle continue to be the dishonourable exception here, with most of the fleet more than 12 years old and the flagship 100 service run by clapped out backfiring MANs from Ayr).
 

overthewater

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In Scunthorpe, the main bus operator is Stagecoach. But the last time we got brand new buses was in 2004 in the RoadCar days, and ever since Stagecoach took over, Scunthorpe has never, ever had a single brand new bus, (unless you count the buses for the 350 Fastcat route to Hull), instead using 'cast offs' from other depots such as Grimsby. The newest we ever had was some single decker Enviros that were about just over three years old at the time of the Scunthorpe depot receiving them.

So Scunthorpe has had brand news buses then.... there a number of problem around Scunny;

For Starters the town centre is no longer the focus point, and you now have two other major playing in the scunny shopping districts, and thats not including Lakeside etc, the second is there are two companies running the town services, so well its fragmented a bit. The town is also not in the best shape, ( those TV programme should have been a big giveaway)

There is light else where, there are plans for new major housing development "Lincolnshire Lakes" but will it be bus friendly?

In Fife the out of town buses are all basically brand new including the coaches ( over the course of 7 years) while most of the town service are operated with cast off, including some 10 year old stock, although some 2015 Carlisle solos were sent up as part of a major swap of buses. Its all Swings and roundabouts.
 
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Andyh82

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Not so much, they tend to move newer buses into Leeds from elsewhere.
That is an exception, almost the entire Arriva Yorkshire fleet besides those hybrids and an half a dozen other buses were all new to Arriva Yorkshire.
 

BanburyBlue

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Oxford's fleet is amazingly new, the oldest buses on main routes are from 2009 which are due to be replaced this year, with I think 2 2003 Darts at Banbury for a council contract and a few older Solos in reserve. Investment is pretty much yearly, so I guess we have it pretty well off!
Oxford is not Oxfordshire! Banbury and Oxford are separate places, served by Stagecoach OXFORDSHIRE. Sorry, chip on shoulder.
 

carlberry

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(*Stageecoach Newcastle continue to be the dishonourable exception here, with most of the fleet more than 12 years old and the flagship 100 service run by clapped out backfiring MANs from Ayr).
Can you actually back this claim up with facts? From a quick look (I cant claim a vast knowledge) the fleet age in Newcastle may be poor however less than 20% appears to be more than 12 years old which is a strange definition of 'most'.
 

carlberry

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Oxford is not Oxfordshire! Banbury and Oxford are separate places, served by Stagecoach OXFORDSHIRE. Sorry, chip on shoulder.
And seperate companies. Oxford actually served by Thames Transit trading as Stagecoach Oxfordshire and Banbury is Midland Red South trading as Stagecoach Oxfordshire. And Oxford gets the newer buses because of the LEZ!
 

Mwanesh

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And seperate companies. Oxford actually served by Thames Transit trading as Stagecoach Oxfordshire and Banbury is Midland Red South trading as Stagecoach Oxfordshire. And Oxford gets the newer buses because of the LEZ!
Banbury is now under Thames Transit licence .Midland Red South is now the Midlands operation.It was moved around 2010
 

Stan Drews

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Can you actually back this claim up with facts? From a quick look (I cant claim a vast knowledge) the fleet age in Newcastle may be poor however less than 20% appears to be more than 12 years old which is a strange definition of 'most'.

How dare you allow the facts to ruin a 'story'.
 

Mwanesh

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Porth in South Wales never had new buses for over 12 years .In the last 12 months half the depot has been converted to Gold routes and they have had about 50 new buses i think am not sure.Dont know how they managed to do it .
 

175mph

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So Scunthorpe has had brand news buses then.... there a number of problem around Scunny;

For Starters the town centre is no longer the focus point, and you now have two major other others playing to be the big shopping areas in the town and that is not including Lakeside etc, the second is there are two companies running the town services, so well its fragmented a bit. The town is also not the best shape, ( those TV programme should have been a big giveaway)

There is light else where, there are plans for new major housing development "Lincolnshire Lakes" but will it be bus friendly?

In Fife the out of town buses are all basically brand new including the coaches ( over the course of 7 years) while most of the town service are operated with cast off, including some 10 year old stock, although some 2015 Carlisle solos were sent up as part of a major swap of buses. Its all Swings and roundabouts.
I wouldn't think so, no.
no.gif
 

GaryMcEwan

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Can you actually back this claim up with facts? From a quick look (I cant claim a vast knowledge) the fleet age in Newcastle may be poor however less than 20% appears to be more than 12 years old which is a strange definition of 'most'.

Add to that the clapped out MANviro's they got from East Scotland as well. Stagecoach Perth now seems to receive cascade's via Fife these days.

There have been several 59 plated E400s that Perth have received which are so under-powered it seems forever to get anywhere. Think the last time Perth got new buses was in 2014 when they got the E300 and E200s for the 1, 2, 8 and 9 services.
 

overthewater

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Add to that the clapped out MANviro's they got from East Scotland as well. Stagecoach Perth now seems to receive cascade's via Fife these days. There have been several 59 plated E400s that Perth have received which are so under-powered it seems forever to get anywhere. .
Are those the ones that come from Newcastle? Fife still has plenty of them and, yes there badly underpowered

Think the last time Perth got new buses was in 2014 when they got the E300 and E200s for the 1, 2, 8 and 9 services.

Perth did get brand new stock, there going to have to last another 4 years at least... Why should perth get brand new buses every single year?
 
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