GaryMcEwan
Established Member
No the 59 plated E400s were new to Fife which have now been cascaded to Perth. Fife seems to get new buses whenever it wants so why shouldn't Perth?
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Stagecoach, First etc policies regarding which places get brand new buses
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No the 59 plated E400s were new to Fife which have now been cascaded to Perth. Fife seems to get new buses whenever it wants so why shouldn't Perth?
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markydh
Member
Stagecoach Newcastle is the classic captive market scenario. There's no competition with any other operator to speak of and it shows. Feast or famine is the usual modus operandi. 2016 saw 24 E400MMCs and 18 E200MMCs but prior to that, the previous new buses were the government funded E400Hs in 2011. Five years without a new bus for one of the most profitable places in the Stagecoach Bus empire. Stagecoach North East as a whole is pretty awful, though. There's a reason they never have a single representative in any of the award categories at the bus awards.
overthewater
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Fife is alot bigger and has to 4 depots to deal with
which means they all have to take turns. Fife doesn't get new stock whenever it want alas... St Andrews is just about to get brand new stock for the first time in six years to replace the 99s. Last year order finally brought new coaches to see of the dity and flithy ones for the X24, Year before that it was only 3. Most of the town service are operated with 10 year stock, with a few 2015 solo throw in for good measure. If the talk is true Stagecoach has lost 94, I wouldn't be surprised if 2-3 solo where sent to Glenrothes to ship out the 2008 solos for the Kirkcaldy town service. Dunfermline is due within the next month brand new stock for the X55 and maybe the X51, again to see off 2007 "B7 and possibly some 2010 B9.My point was this: If you get brand new stock you have to look after it for at least 6-8 years.
GaryMcEwan
Established Member
Fife is alot bigger and has to 4 depots to deal with
My point was this: If you get brand new stock you have to look after it for at least 6-8 years.
I actually couldn't care about Fife. My issue is the lack of investment in the Perth area as a whole. Instead of getting crappy cascades, Souter should get his hand in his pocket and properly invest.
goldisgood
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Hang on! Some depots come to mind as not having any new buses invested for over 10 years. Hartlepool and Stroud strike me as fitting into this category, I'm sure there will be a couple of other examples around.
Perth has had 24 buses in the last 6 years, so not that bad.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
The bulk of the E400 fleet are 07 and 57 plates, and haven't been touched since they were bought. Add in the MANviros and the truly hateful Kinetics.
So apologies, some of them are actually only 11 years old!
The average has dropped recently, in fairness. Stagecoach cut the PVR dramatically last year, so all the 53 and 54 plate ALX300s were withdrawn, most of them without being replaced.
Areas get new buses based on how they put the business case to the board look at Carlisle they had E200 that were replaced when a year old.You will find that Oxford Devon and Kent are the profitable areas hence investment every year.The others may look healthy but they wont be.
Can you tell us more about new stock for St Andrews & Dunfermline?Fife is alot bigger and has to 4 depots to deal with
My point was this: If you get brand new stock you have to look after it for at least 6-8 years.
overthewater
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* 10 Low floor B8 coaches For Dunfermline ( its last years order )
* 14 new E200MMC for the 99's ( its lead to believe its getting upped in freq) 62 scannys will go to West scotland since there have some already.
Why? Souter doesn't "own" Stagecoach. It's a limited company owned by its shareholders, which include Souter (lots of shares) and me (a few shares). It's not a matter of putting our hands in our pockets!
Charlie M.
Member
Stagecoach West do get a fair few orders but are eventually transferred through depot and Gloucester saw a nice city investment on some needed E200s but they were moved onto North Bristol. They then cascade some worn out Manchester 2009 Rattle Buses and 2004 Broken darts.
goldisgood
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Stagecoach West needs good cascades or large investment in single deckers soon. Hopefully some in this year's order!
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Now let's not let the truth get in the way of anything here. First of all "the previous new buses were the government funded E400Hs in 2011" - the Green Bus Fund only finances the difference between the costs of green buses compared with standard fleet.
Also, Stagecoach North East is a larger business so just to focus on Newcastle is rather disingenuous (especially as the margins reported by Nexus for Busways also include Shields and Sunderland). So no mention of the 40 e300 gas buses that headed to Sunderland in 2013/4? The 42 new e300s for Stockton in 2014/5? Or the 21 e200s in Sunderland in 2013? Or the 16 e200s to South Shields in 2015?
Of the entire Stagecoach NE fleet (incl Hartlepool and Teesside) there are 23 deckers and 41 singles that are >10 years old and I'd not be surprised to see a fair chunk of those being eliminated in the next year. Of course, a number of these were cascades locally (out of Newcastle into places like Hartlepool) whilst the worst examples (04 Darts) seemingly headed to other Stagecoach Opcos (e.g. Stagecoach West and Stagecoach South West)
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I'm sure that this is something that will be addressed as the Darts in Swindon are particularly venerable. Stagecoach Midlands have been busy culling Darts of a similar age!
Remember that even in backwaters (no offence) like Banbury, they've had new fleet for their key routes in 2011/2 that has since been cascaded 5/6 years later to Hull or Lincoln. Nothing to say that some similar cascades may arrive though. However, Stagecoach West has done reasonably well for new vehicles in recent years with a fleet of new deckers for the Forest of Dean
plus the 94 and 55 Gold deckers as well as a few other batches including various e200 and the Tewkesbury run. The Darts do need some weeding out (34563 was particularly asthmatic when I "enjoyed" it the other week) and I'm sure it's one of their 2018 things to do!The older buses end up with Carousel in Wycombe.
markydh
Member
Why would I mention those? The discussion was about Newcastle and the fact it's a captive market (which it is). I'd actually be VERY surprised to see any investment in Newcastle or the wider region to any notable extent, this year. Cascades from East Scotland, no doubt. Their former MD seems very happy to take on their clapped out stock in his new dominion. Newcastle City Council have just got funding to upgrade the engines on older buses. From memory, it's 40-odd buses as far as Stagecoach is concerned. 07, 57 and 58 reg E400s anyone?
goldisgood
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Sorry, should've said I was talking about Stagecoach! OBC's fleet is quite a bit older, with lots of 2005 buses still going around.
I've heard they have plans to remove all Tridents from the fleet by the end of this financial year. I'd hope they get rid of lots of darts too, as they really need upgrading! Stagecoach West seem to invest mainly in deckers, with most single deckers going to Cheltenham.I'm sure that this is something that will be addressed as the Darts in Swindon are particularly venerable. Stagecoach Midlands have been busy culling Darts of a similar age!
Remember that even in backwaters (no offence) like Banbury, they've had new fleet for their key routes in 2011/2 that has since been cascaded 5/6 years later to Hull or Lincoln. Nothing to say that some similar cascades may arrive though. However, Stagecoach West has done reasonably well for new vehicles in recent years with a fleet of new deckers for the Forest of Dean
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Because it's about putting things into context and not selectively choosing information.
For example.... my feisty nature and general obnoxious behaviour can be explained by the fact that I'm an only child (if you exclude my two sisters)
I don't disagree that the Newcastle fleet is due some new fleet, but part of the reason is that they've been investing in every other depot than Newcastle (and the chimp chokers). I don't know what Stagecoach's orders are for the year - perhaps Newcastle will get more new deckers and I would agree it needs them.
Where I perhaps have a different opinion to various posters (not just your comments) is in two main areas:
The captive market? Aside from the competitive impact of the private car, Stagecoach only really has the west of the city to themselves, with the Metro running over many key corridors in the North and East. Also, we have the complaint of bus companies chopping and changing etc. Arguably, Stagecoach Busways have been ultra conservative but then the argument is that instead of stability, then it's just being unimaginative.
The Flagship routes. The MetroCentre Shuttle may be more notable on account of its branding but is it a flagship route - the most important and profitable service? In truth, it's nothing compared with the cross city routes out of Walkergate. Also, I was a denizen of the city when Stagecoach bought Busways and remember this:
- There had been one batch of new deckers in the 8 years since de-regulation (for the 1)
- There had been a few batches of Scania single deckers and Lynxes (though the majority of the latter went to Sunderland)
- Busways were buying Dennis Darts for fleet replacement AND 20 year old+ Bristol REs
However, the comments about most of the fleet being more than 12 years or ignoring the investment at other depots in the same firm are misleading at best
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I'd not be surprised to see many of the Tridents go. Perhaps a new 66 fleet at Swindon to enable the Gold fleet there to be cascaded onto something like the 49/51 workings and then those to be cascaded to replace Tridents in some way?
goldisgood
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Local reports on Swindon Bus News and Spotting Movements facebook page say that the 66 is due some new fleet in November/December. I'd guess that Stagecoach West will get a fair few cascades to eliminate Tridents and some Darts.
Charlie M.
Member
Swindon are due new buses for the 66 and rumours from staff have been made aware. With the 94, it had 6 years of service so I would expect the same for the 66.
Also heard that tridents are expected to be replaced as Gloucester just received some E400s and Swindon cascaded units to Stroud to replace tridents, for then the gold 66 units to operate gold services like 51 or 49, and then moving on all of the tridents.
This year i’d expect a fairly big order for the west as many of the single deckers are beyond awful and the 66 is due upgrade.
Also heard that tridents are expected to be replaced as Gloucester just received some E400s and Swindon cascaded units to Stroud to replace tridents, for then the gold 66 units to operate gold services like 51 or 49, and then moving on all of the tridents.
This year i’d expect a fairly big order for the west as many of the single deckers are beyond awful and the 66 is due upgrade.
Jordan Adam
Established Member
Stagecoach North Scotland is a weird one as it's withdrawing and scrapping PSVAR compliant coaches that are only around 12 years old, all the while Non-PSVAR compliant coaches up to 21 years of age are still in use. Currently there's still 7 B10Ms in full service, surely a testament to a great chassis that's stood the test of time! On top of that a number of 54 plate B7Rs which were built just before the act came in for coaches are still on the go.
The 10 doesn't make much profit (a number of runs make a loss), but it goes up against the train so is seen as a jewel for getting new stuff. It's common place that every 5/6 years the 10 gets a new fleet with the current fleet being cascaded to the 35.
The 10 doesn't make much profit (a number of runs make a loss), but it goes up against the train so is seen as a jewel for getting new stuff. It's common place that every 5/6 years the 10 gets a new fleet with the current fleet being cascaded to the 35.
While we are discussing Stagecoach - New orders/Fleet replacement, does anyone know/remember if SC ever put an age limit on 'Gold' vehicles? I.E we will aim for a 7 year life or some such?
The ex South 'Gold' MAN/E400s at West are '58 reg so coming up for 10 years, also 12 '09 reg Scania/E400 at West and 5 of the same at Witney.
I note reports of new E400MMC seen on delivery run in basic Stagecoach colours, with '18 regs, possibly - (Rumoured) to be for South - Coastliner 700, presumably from yet to be announced 2018/19 orders?
I am sure that the Cambridge Busway vehicles originally had some sort of commitment re vehicle age.
The gold vehicles on Plymouth to Torquay are 63 plates and much lower spec than the 2017 standard vehicles in Torbay. Kind of defeats the object when gold route buses are worse than the normal buses
goldisgood
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The vehicles on the G1, 1 and 94 were replaced when 8 years old. I guess there will be other factors though, a while ago SKM reported that Midlands were trying to get new buses for the X4 which are '61 reg as they were worn out, the current buses on the Swindon 66 are very worn out, as are the Witney S1/S2 buses. Also, if they need newer double deckers makes sense to upgrade a premium route such as the 66 rather than the 63 then cascade the vehicles.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
There are no official age limits on Gold. However, Gold routes have tended to the best services and so would be due for replacement anyway.
However, of the earlier examples, many have been replaced by new fleet. The displaced fleet have been refurbished, repainted and then put back out onto the road to convert routes to Gold standard that have potential but perhaps can't justify new fleet e.g. the e300 from Aldershot to convert the Gloucester 66s, the e400 from Gloucester 94 to convert the Gloucester 63/97/98, some of the Warwick Solos went (and gained dateless plates) to Chester. Given that the e400s were refurbished in 2016 when displaced by the mmcs from the 94, they'll be on there for a little while yet I suspect, and an improvement on the 2004/6 Tridents that they replaced.
The Cambridge Busway has an age stipulation (7 years?) as demanded by the county council and this applies to Stagecoach and Whippet.
Think you'll find currently they're down to just 1 in full time work, 52362.
Also, it's much easier to keep welding the chassis of a B10M than it is to replace the waist/stretch panels on a Profile. Not Plaxton's finest design choice.
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