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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

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bramling

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If it's in the same location, could it be linked to recent works and turn out not to be a problem with the 700s? For a while I am sure there was mass panic within GTR, and after today it must have really got bad!

I notice 700s are now using the UF south of New Southgate again as of today.

On a different note, has anyone else noticed that the 700s seem to have difficulty achieving 365 timings on GN? To be fair I've not exactly been a regular user, but in the knowledge that from May I should be able to get to/from London using just 365s again I've taken a few 700 trips recently for novelty value. On every occasion the train has not kept up with 365 timings despite having a clear run, losing minutes here and there.

I've noticed there's a very noticeable motor/coast/motor/coast driving style evident on the 700s, and I've now made enough journeys to deduce that this isn't just certain drivers - everyone's doing it. GPS measurements show the train will reach 100 mph, then be allowed to coast down to the early 90s, then motor back up to 100 mph again. Presumably this must be a product of how the driving controls are designed. It doesn't happen with either 365s or 387s, both of which are able to maintain a pretty constant 100 mph. It can only be this that's causing the 700s not to achieve equivalent running times, as the acceleration should be better, the maximum speed on paper is the same, and on long non-stop runs braking for station stops is pretty much irrelevant. As an aside it also produces a rather unpleasant sensation for passengers, to add to the uncomfortable and cramped seats, vile internal décor, lack of facilities, footwell intrusions, extra noise, rattles creaks & bangs, poor air conditioning etc.
 
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railfan100

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Does anyone know what the cost was per coach for the Class 700 units? I find them worse than the trains I have been on in India to be frank. It would be very interesting to know the cost of the order with Siemens and divided per coach.
 

D365

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I’ve been finding them far better than the Class 465s recently, so that’s quite a comparison...

I imagine unit costs will be subject to some confidentiality, as the overall cost of the contract will include servicing etc.
 

railfan100

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In a public transportation system that is allegedly run for the public, was the order not managed by the DFT? It would have a confidentiality issue? Surely this information would aid transparency and reinforce what a great value for money service the network provides?
 

coppercapped

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Does anyone know what the cost was per coach for the Class 700 units? I find them worse than the trains I have been on in India to be frank. It would be very interesting to know the cost of the order with Siemens and divided per coach.
There is no breakdown of costs which would yield the purchase price per coach.
The trains were procured in the same way that the IEP trains were purchased, that is the TOC is contracted by the DfT to pay a certain amount per completed diagram to the train service provider - in the case of Thameslink this is Cross London Trains - and all manufacturing, maintenance and debt service costs are covered by these payments. The 2014 National Audit Office's report Procuring New Trains which covers both IEP and Thameslink states:
Thameslink – 1,140 new train carriages to provide increased capacity, reliability and frequency of service; two new train maintenance depots; a maintenance contract lasting up to 30 years with options to break at the first franchise change after year ten of the contract and every franchise change thereafter; financing; and a contract which incentivises the consortia to provide and maintain reliable trains.
The NAO reported that the DfT calculated that the Net Present Value of the Thameslink contract with Cross London Trains would be £2.8 billion at 2014 prices (ADDED IN EDIT) for the 20 year contract period which results in total contract payments per carriage of £2.4 million.
 
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jon0844

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700152 being delivered to Peterborough this morning (3Z91).

Now going back to Three Bridges it seems.

(corrected typo, which should have been obvious given the thread!)
 
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TRAX

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I prefer a system like in Switzerland where there is an automatic drive but the throttle value is decided by the driver who, taking the lever to the end of the race, the system will then decide how much current give to the engines, but never exceed the value of the lever.

This is just cruise control, it’s not ATO at all.
 

hwl

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Does anyone know what the cost was per coach for the Class 700 units? I find them worse than the trains I have been on in India to be frank. It would be very interesting to know the cost of the order with Siemens and divided per coach.
The average cost is just under £1.1m per car
 

Kite159

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700152 being delivered to Peterborough this morning (3Z91).

Now going back to Three Bridges it seems.

(corrected typo, which should have been obvious given the thread!)

Looked very shiny at Blackfriars yesterday.

I will admit they seem to fly between London Bridge & East Croydon, certainly better than the old crawl via Crystal Palace
 

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jon0844

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It was at Blackfriars on test on Friday; parked in the bays at around 10.45-ish.
When I came back from Paris a few weeks ago there were some 700s parked up by the tunnel (UK side). Are there many more to be delivered after construction finished? Any ideas when the first 717 will come through?
 
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Kite159

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When I came back from Paris a few weeks ago there were some 700s parked up by the tunnel (UK side). Are there many more to be delivered after construction finished? Any ideas when the first 717 will come through?

IIRC there is some 700s currently being stored in that area, as they are not required until the May timetable.

---

I noticed at Peckham Rye, the last set of doors didn't open (heading towards Central London), seemed a tad odd but I guess a RLU 700 is slightly longer than 2x 319s (or 2x 465s)?
 

jon0844

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3Z91 out again tonight, and presumably back later as 3Z92? (152 again)
 
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dlj83

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When Thameslink is extended to Rainham, will first class on the class 700 trains be declassified ?
 

westcoaster

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IIRC there is some 700s currently being stored in that area, as they are not required until the May timetable.

---

I noticed at Peckham Rye, the last set of doors didn't open (heading towards Central London), seemed a tad odd but I guess a RLU 700 is slightly longer than 2x 319s (or 2x 465s)?
An rlu 700 is shorter than an 8 car 319 or 377.
 

swt_passenger

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An rlu 700 is shorter than an 8 car 319 or 377.
It isn’t just length, it was said earlier in the thread that 700 stopping positions have been revised at many stations because of different signal sighting from the central driving position...
 

yorkie

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This thread is for discussion of Thameslink Class 700 updates.

If you wish to discuss anything else, or if you wish to reply to someone else who has already done so, please create a new thread (if there isn't one already) in an appropriate forum to continue the discussion there.

Some posts have been moved to: Future automatic train discussion
 

MML

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Pulling into St.Pancras northbound this evening. PIS advised the next station was Brighton and to mind the step between the platform and the door. :lol:
 

philjo

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The 0656 Peterborough to Kings Cross (12 coach 700) and 0713 Royston to Kings Cross (8 coach 700) were both cancelled due to train faults this morning. The 0720 Letchworth to Kings Cross (6 coach 313) also cancelled due to a train fault. Result that at Stevenage the 0731, 0736 and 0738 services all cancelled so 26 coaches missing today. As a result the 0659 stopper from Cambridge (8 coach 387) was full after Hitchin and most passengers on the platforms at Knebworth and Welwyn North were unable to board.
I understand that the 0713 Royston to Kings Cross (8 coach 700) also broke down in Potters Bar tunnel on Monday arriving 25 minutes late at Kings Cross.


On Saturday I was travelling from Cambridge on an 8 coach 700. As the train approached Baldock the PIS announced that the doors in the coach I was in would not open due to a short platform! the doors did actually open. I was in 2nd coach from the front so would expect that one to open anyway. Baldock has 8 coach platforms so the 12 coach 700s will use SDO but this was announced on an 8 coach train.
 

jon0844

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The 0656 Peterborough to Kings Cross (12 coach 700) and 0713 Royston to Kings Cross (8 coach 700) were both cancelled due to train faults this morning. The 0720 Letchworth to Kings Cross (6 coach 313) also cancelled due to a train fault. Result that at Stevenage the 0731, 0736 and 0738 services all cancelled so 26 coaches missing today. As a result the 0659 stopper from Cambridge (8 coach 387) was full after Hitchin and most passengers on the platforms at Knebworth and Welwyn North were unable to board.
I understand that the 0713 Royston to Kings Cross (8 coach 700) also broke down in Potters Bar tunnel on Monday arriving 25 minutes late at Kings Cross.

On Saturday I was travelling from Cambridge on an 8 coach 700. As the train approached Baldock the PIS announced that the doors in the coach I was in would not open due to a short platform! the doors did actually open. I was in 2nd coach from the front so would expect that one to open anyway. Baldock has 8 coach platforms so the 12 coach 700s will use SDO but this was announced on an 8 coach train.

All the cancelled services were given the code M8; "M8 Other technical failures above the Solebar". I'm not really sure what that means, especially for it to be attributed to multiple cancellations!

It was chaotic at WGC with lots of angry passengers, even though they were at least able to board trains starting there to King's Cross (obviously arriving later though). It was Knebworth and Welwyn North passengers that really suffered.
 

whoosh

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I notice 700s are now using the UF south of New Southgate again as of today.

On a different note, has anyone else noticed that the 700s seem to have difficulty achieving 365 timings on GN? To be fair I've not exactly been a regular user, but in the knowledge that from May I should be able to get to/from London using just 365s again I've taken a few 700 trips recently for novelty value. On every occasion the train has not kept up with 365 timings despite having a clear run, losing minutes here and there.

I've noticed there's a very noticeable motor/coast/motor/coast driving style evident on the 700s, and I've now made enough journeys to deduce that this isn't just certain drivers - everyone's doing it. GPS measurements show the train will reach 100 mph, then be allowed to coast down to the early 90s, then motor back up to 100 mph again. Presumably this must be a product of how the driving controls are designed. It doesn't happen with either 365s or 387s, both of which are able to maintain a pretty constant 100 mph. It can only be this that's causing the 700s not to achieve equivalent running times, as the acceleration should be better, the maximum speed on paper is the same, and on long non-stop runs braking for station stops is pretty much irrelevant. As an aside it also produces a rather unpleasant sensation for passengers, to add to the uncomfortable and cramped seats, vile internal décor, lack of facilities, footwell intrusions, extra noise, rattles creaks & bangs, poor air conditioning etc.


Have another check of the GPS speeds you'e getting and you'll notice that when the train coasts down to mid to low 90s from 100mph, it coincides with a neutral section in the overhead wires. They take AGES until you can take power again whilst the computerised systems start up again. Other stock, even modern 387s are pretty much instant once you are through the neutral section - just shut off power, pause, wait for line light to come back on, and reapply power. 700s are probably about 30 seconds if not longer. It's one of the few disappointing things about them from a Driver's point of view.

Another thing is that whilst cruising they require constant small changes to the variable power handle. I'm getting used to this, and it's becoming less of an issue, but a 365 is a lot easier with four coarse power notches.
 

Domh245

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Seeing as the Thameslink Core ATO thread has been closed, how much further has the rollout progressed? Is it still just the odd singular service train, or are there more now?
 

whoosh

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To my knowledge only the Testing & Commissioning Drivers are trained on ATO. Many ordinary drivers have new routes to learn and there will be much training to be done to get them through that first. There is also the new London Bridge remodelling for existing Thameslink drivers who won't learn new routes but will still need to know the new layout there.

I think it's sometime next year that ATO will become operational in normal running. The signalling system that the ATO runs on is a target speed one, so will show up on a display in the cab - hence training being required, and new rules and procedures to learn in degraded situations.
 
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