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Should the line between Blackheath and Charlton be removed?

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Hi,

Often trains between Lewisham and Eltham get held whilst waiting for the junction to clear.

Does this line serve a useful purpose now that there is the DLR between Lewisham and Greenwich and that it is going to go to London Cannon Street under the new franchise (rather than Charing Cross now); would it be better to stop passenger services running along it?

Thoughts welcome
 
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frodshamfella

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Its a long time since I was a regular user of the Bexleyheath line, the link Blackheath to Charlton was used on the semi fast to Gillingham, does it not go that way anymore ?
 

Barn

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Its a long time since I was a regular user of the Bexleyheath line, the link Blackheath to Charlton was used on the semi fast to Gillingham, does it not go that way anymore ?

It still does (although it will soon be all stations to Dartford and then terminate there).

I agree that it does lose one of its main benefits with the switch to Cannon Street in 2022. As it is slower than the Greenwich route (particularly with calls at New Cross and St Johns added), I am curious as to whether it will actually be worth rushing to the station to get a Lewisham service. I suspect one might as well just wait for the next Greenwich train and still get to London Bridge at a similar time.

It would serve flows between Woolwich and Lewisham (such as they are) and could in future open up connections with London Overground at New Cross, although this will also be available via Crossrail and Whitechapel.
 

ComUtoR

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I think it would be epically stupid to close it.
 
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If the Gillingham service gets rerouted through Lewisham, it would probably make more sense for Victoria trains to use the tunnel. Whitechapel looks like it will be a bottleneck after Crossrail opens & this would allow those passengers making Woolwich - Clapham Junction (& beyond) orbital journeys to instead change at Denmark Hill as an alternative route that doesn't involve zone 1. It would run with 2tph out via Charlton, back via Kidbrooke, & 2tph the opposite direction on the loop. Lewisham losing the Gillinghams would free up 2tph at the flat junction. Mondays-Saturdays the Victoria trains also pass through Clapham High Street without stopping, & a stop there would allow interchange with the Northern line.
 

NSEFAN

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Hi,

Often trains between Lewisham and Eltham get held whilst waiting for the junction to clear.

Does this line serve a useful purpose now that there is the DLR between Lewisham and Greenwich and that it is going to go to London Cannon Street under the new franchise (rather than Charing Cross now); would it be better to stop passenger services running along it?

Thoughts welcome
I'm not fully familiar with the timetabling in the area, but it could be that simplifying the routes would reduce conflicts and increase capacity (albeit with more clashes occurring elsewhere instead)!

At most however I would expect the line to be reduced to a token early/late parliamentary service to maintain route knowledge. Completely closing a connecting spur like that in this day and age just daft.
 

XDM

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The Blackheath Charlton line was already devalued by Network Rail or possible Railtrack.
I know an ex British Rail 4EPB/4SUB motorman who told me he enjoyed hammering though the long tunnel on the line at up to line speed, 60 mph. now it's a dreary time consuming 30 mph in both directions.
 

Dr Hoo

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Although not directly related to the future of Blackheath-Charlton as a through passenger route there have recently been proposals to create a new, facing junction for freight to Angerstein Wharf, thereby eliminating the need for the excruciating, capacity wasting, performance jeopardising, inefficient circuit via Slade Green.
 

mister-sparky

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Looking at the new May timetables it’s going to still be used by 2tph from Charing Cross to Dartford. So no do not close it.
 

Mikey C

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No. Apart from anything else, it's popular for Charlton Athletic fans who live in Blackheath and Lewisham :D
 

theageofthetra

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Although not directly related to the future of Blackheath-Charlton as a through passenger route there have recently been proposals to create a new, facing junction for freight to Angerstein Wharf, thereby eliminating the need for the excruciating, capacity wasting, performance jeopardising, inefficient circuit via Slade Green.
And the environmental impact of the extra fuel/emissions.
 

Ianno87

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Looking at the new May timetables it’s going to still be used by 2tph from Charing Cross to Dartford. So no do not close it.

Its now effectively the only route that can provide a direct service between Woolwich etc. and Charing Cross.

Also provide a useful route from.Victoria etc. into the north end of Slade Green depot.
 

bionic

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Although not directly related to the future of Blackheath-Charlton as a through passenger route there have recently been proposals to create a new, facing junction for freight to Angerstein Wharf, thereby eliminating the need for the excruciating, capacity wasting, performance jeopardising, inefficient circuit via Slade Green.
If I'm not mistaken there was originally a triangular junction here anyway. Without looking it up I'm not sure when it was removed... But like the 'new' link from the Thameslink core to the ECML or the concept of running through trains off the East London Line, the fact it's being reconsidered is just further proof of the shortsightedness and folly of many previous line closures.
 

Wychwood93

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If I'm not mistaken there was originally a triangular junction here anyway. Without looking it up I'm not sure when it was removed... But like the 'new' link from the Thameslink core to the ECML or the concept of running through trains off the East London Line, the fact it's being reconsidered is just further proof of the shortsightedness and folly of many previous line closures.
Indeed there was: http://www.RailMapOnline.com/UKIEMap.php?lat=51.48427&lng=0.02271&zoom=14 shows the down/facing, line.
 

eastwestdivide

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Dr_Paul

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If I'm not mistaken there was originally a triangular junction here anyway. Without looking it up I'm not sure when it was removed... But like the 'new' link from the Thameslink core to the ECML or the concept of running through trains off the East London Line, the fact it's being reconsidered is just further proof of the shortsightedness and folly of many previous line closures.

An OS map from 1869 shows it as a triangular junction, but on the next one I've found, from 1897, the north to south line is just a siding, with all traffic thus going from Angerstein's Wharf towards Woolwich. I've sometimes wondered it's not a triangle, which would allow Angerstein Wharf traffic to go to Lewisham via Blackheath rather than for it to go all the way around via Slades Green.
 
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An OS map from 1869 shows it as a triangular junction, but on the next one I've found, from 1897, the north to south line is just a siding, with all traffic thus going from Angerstein's Wharf towards Woolwich. I've sometimes wondered it's not a triangle, which would allow Angerstein Wharf traffic to go to Lewisham via Blackheath rather than for it to go all the way around via Slades Green.
The maps also seem to show that the points were exit-only (up-facing onto the up line, down-facing onto the down line), so trains would be unable to enter without either wrong-roading or stopping to reverse on open line. Was this convention to prevent trains from accidentally running into the yard?
What would we actually gain from lifting the track?
Some metal
Although not directly related to the future of Blackheath-Charlton as a through passenger route there have recently been proposals to create a new, facing junction for freight to Angerstein Wharf, thereby eliminating the need for the excruciating, capacity wasting, performance jeopardising, inefficient circuit via Slade Green.
Where would the Met take my car when some chav feels like ransacking the local crazy golf course in it?
 
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DynamicSpirit

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Hi,

Often trains between Lewisham and Eltham get held whilst waiting for the junction to clear.

Does this line serve a useful purpose now that there is the DLR between Lewisham and Greenwich and that it is going to go to London Cannon Street under the new franchise (rather than Charing Cross now); would it be better to stop passenger services running along it?

Thoughts welcome

Or if conflicting moves at Blackheath are such a problem we could just close the line from Blackheath to Slade Green via Bexleyheath to avoid any delays to the trains on the Blackheath-Charlton line? After all, does the line through Bexleyheath really serve a purpose when people can just get buses to connect to the neighbouring rail lines? ;)
 

DynamicSpirit

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It would serve flows between Woolwich and Lewisham (such as they are) and could in future open up connections with London Overground at New Cross, although this will also be available via Crossrail and Whitechapel.

Indeed. And a whole other set of connections besides. Personally I've used that line to get from Woolwich or Abbey Wood to places such as Blackheath, Hither Green, Peckham Rye, even Clapham Junction (avoiding zone 1). It also provides good connections to get between Charlton/Woolwich etc. and places along the Bexleyheath line.

I appreciate that you can get to Lewisham from the DLR at Greenwich, and that provides a more frequent service. But it also adds one to however many changes you need to make, as well as adding to the journey time. In the end, the services that use the Blackheath-Charlton line do a reasonable job at allowing a variety of orbital journeys avoiding central London - albeit imperfectly because of the relatively low frequencies, the need to change trains.
 

Daz28

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Blackheath is very busy during special events, the annual fireworks, the London Marathon, On Blackheath festival and other summer events.
 

Dr Hoo

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But if you zoom in it only shows a 'backshunt' that ran close to the Blackheath line but with no connection.

From looking at the old Ordnance Survey maps (as also referenced up-thread) it seems that any historic connection was lost a very long time ago if it ever actually existed after the Angerstein branch was opened in October 1852. Various more recent published sources, such as Jowett's 'Nationalised Railway Atlas', have also 're-invented' the triangle. Neither C F Dendy Marshall's 'History of the Southern Railway' nor R Davis and M D Grant's 'London and its Railways' mention a connected curve or show one on their respective maps.
 

Busaholic

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Transport for London are intent on removing the main bus link between Abbey Wood, Plumstead, Woolwich, Charlton and Lewisham, the 180, supposedly as a result of the changed travelling landscape once Crossrail opens at Woolwich and Abbey Wood, so it really would be a blow if the rail link went too. My last London home was in Blackheath and I found that railway line very useful although I doubt many locals were even aware of it.
 

Railwaysceptic

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But if you zoom in it only shows a 'backshunt' that ran close to the Blackheath line but with no connection.

From looking at the old Ordnance Survey maps (as also referenced up-thread) it seems that any historic connection was lost a very long time ago if it ever actually existed after the Angerstein branch was opened in October 1852. Various more recent published sources, such as Jowett's 'Nationalised Railway Atlas', have also 're-invented' the triangle. Neither C F Dendy Marshall's 'History of the Southern Railway' nor R Davis and M D Grant's 'London and its Railways' mention a connected curve or show one on their respective maps.

Joe Brown's London Railway Atlas 4th Edition does show the original junction and appends "London facing junction eliminated 1890."
 

Mikey C

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As an aside, it's slightly unfortunate that the Lewisham/Woolwich services leave London Bridge only 2 minutes before the next Greenwich/Woolwich service leaves, as quite often by the time the services come together just outside Charlton station the Greenwich train has caught up the Woolwich train and has to wait at signals for it to go first.

I assume if this train becomes a stopper after the timetable change there will be no need to prioritise it, and instead it will the semi fast Thameslink service which will get priority instead...
 

Railwaysceptic

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^^^^
Thanks for that very helpful information, Railwaysceptic.

An interesting 7 minute video relating to the Angerstein Wharf line has just been uploaded to YouTube.

.

As the picture quality is far better than is normally found on YouTube, it's worth watching.
 
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