Poor evening XC service in the South West

1e10 · 14 Apr 2018

Hi all,

I'm looking through the XC timetable for services between Plymouth and Bristol Temple Meads and notice it's a little non-existing in the evening. The last Northbound train from Plymouth leaves at 1825, both weekends and weekdays. In contrast routes such as Bristol to Birmingham and Birmingham to Manchester see services depart as late as 2200 and 2230 respectively during the week.

Has the service from the South Coast always been so non-existing in the evening?

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MidnightFlyer · 14 Apr 2018

Stock balance will be one reason - the units arriving after the 1825 will either head for Laira (or Penzance for Long Rock), as x amount will be required for departures before the morning's first arrivals from the north.

I seem to recall the service along the Exeter to Taunton corridor particularly thins and ends rather early in general.

Twoonthebuzzer · 14 Apr 2018

There is a GWR HST that leaves Plymouth at 19:43, arriving into Bristol Temple Meads at 21:47.

This service would provide a connection onto the 22:00 Bristol Temple Meads to Birmingham New Street service.

swt_passenger · 14 Apr 2018

Bournemouth has a slightly later northbound XC finish, a 1945 departure to Birmingham, but all the later arrivals go to depot at Eastleigh.

I think it’s always been like this. The opposite occurs in the morning when there are a number of departures before the first arrival.

MidnightFlyer · 14 Apr 2018

Twoonthebuzzer said:
There is a GWR HST that leaves Plymouth at 19:43, arriving into Bristol Temple Meads at 21:47.

This service would provide a connection onto the 22:00 Bristol Temple Meads to Birmingham New Street service.

Which as it comes from Paignton at 2014 can be picked up as far south at Newton Abbot.

Ianno87 · 14 Apr 2018

1e10 said:
Hi all,

I'm looking through the XC timetable for services between Plymouth and Bristol Temple Meads and notice it's a little non-existing in the evening. The last Northbound train from Plymouth leaves at 1825, both weekends and weekdays. In contrast routes such as Bristol to Birmingham and Birmingham to Manchester see services depart as late as 2200 and 2230 respectively during the week.

Has the service from the South Coast always been so non-existing in the evening?

Essentially that's the period when you start to get the evening through trains to Penzance. Going through to Penzance means that the same unit/set can't return northwards in the standard pattern.

Starmill · 14 Apr 2018

Is there really much scope for a later train? The 1742 Penzance to London Paddington provides a journey oppourtunity from the South West to Bristol. The train Midnight Flyer mentions offers a 2052 from Exeter to Bristol, and there is then a 2149 sprinter which arrives at 2313. This connects to the final stopping train for all stations between Taunton and Bristol Temple Meads. You could argue that this train should start back from Plymouth, or that a connection ought be provided as there currently is not one. Following the 1944 from Plymouth there is no Exeter bound deparutre until 2125. An Exeter arrival at about 2135 would be ideal.

I note that a 2310 from Plymouth is now available for Ivybridge, Totnes, Newton Abbot and Exeter St Davids - I am sure there didn't used to be.

It's a tad thin in reverse in the morning too. The Night Riviera Sleeper leaves Exeter St Davids very early, and then there is a 0628 stopping train arriving at Plymouth at 0737. I understand that this hasn't always been the case either.

Busaholic · 14 Apr 2018

1e10 said:
Hi all,

I'm looking through the XC timetable for services between Plymouth and Bristol Temple Meads and notice it's a little non-existing in the evening. The last Northbound train from Plymouth leaves at 1825, both weekends and weekdays. In contrast routes such as Bristol to Birmingham and Birmingham to Manchester see services depart as late as 2200 and 2230 respectively during the week.

Has the service from the South Coast always been so non-existing in the evening?

I've lived in Penzance for thirty years. In my early years here, I used to need to travel to Bristol many times, but with no need to stay overnight: I have never used public transport for this journey, for two main reasons: the cost and the timings of services. Back in about 1990 I was quoted £35 for an off-peak day return, at a time when the petrol required would have been about £20, and with huge gaps in services, even if (and it was a big if) they ran even approximately to time. In short, anyone with an alternative mode of transport would choose that.

Starmill · 14 Apr 2018

Busaholic said:
I've lived in Penzance for thirty years. In my early years here, I used to need to travel to Bristol many times, but with no need to stay overnight: I have never used public transport for this journey, for two main reasons: the cost and the timings of services. Back in about 1990 I was quoted £35 for an off-peak day return, at a time when the petrol required would have been about £20, and with huge gaps in services, even if (and it was a big if) they ran even approximately to time. In short, anyone with an alternative mode of transport would choose that.

The Off Peak Day Return (or Cheap Day Return, as it would then have been known) would have been abolished many years ago. The current cheapest return is £78.80.

Journey opportunities are very good though, in the morning there are 2 journeys per hour until 1051. The 0828 (not valid with the Off Peak Return at £78.80 - a single to St Erth is neccesary at £3.10) completes the journey in under 4 hours. There is a good choice of direct return trains in similar timings, with a last direct train at 1844 taking 3h 57.

Of course, as you say, this would be over £80 and thus a very long way from cost effective.

Busaholic · 14 Apr 2018

Starmill said:
The Off Peak Day Return (or Cheap Day Return, as it would then have been known) would have been abolished many years ago. The current cheapest return is £78.80.

Journey opportunities are very good though, in the morning there are 2 journeys per hour until 1051. The 0828 (not valid with the Off Peak Return at £78.80 - a single to St Erth is neccesary at £3.10) completes the journey in under 4 hours. There is a good choice of direct return trains in similar timings, with a last direct train at 1844 taking 3h 57.

Of course, as you say, this would be over £80 and thus a very long way from cost effective.

A journey I did used to make by rail was between Penzance and Plymouth, which was, and is, extremely good value if you avoid the a.m. peak. Unfortunately, though, it was marred on so many occasions by the return working being significantly delayed, to the extent that I never aimed for a XC working, relying instead on an ex-Paddington train. The only time I remember ever getting an on-time XC (run by Virgin at the time) it broke down between St Austell and Truro, so 90 minutes' delay!

Class 170101 · 15 Apr 2018

The (last) 18:25 Plymouth runs to Birmingham only arriving at 22:02. There is an argument that this train could run as far as Leeds (00:15ish arrival) but certainly Derby (22:46) or Sheffield (23:30) wouldn't be unreasonable. Indeed a 19:25 Plymouth to Birmingham arriving around 23:00 or Derby around 23:45 wouldn't be unreasonable. However XC seem to finish pretty much before midnight across the network.

Of course as has been noted the late runs to Penzance could not operate as the stock would return north instead of continuing south.

Starmill · 15 Apr 2018

Class 170101 said:
The (last) 18:25 Plymouth runs to Birmingham only arriving at 22:02. There is an argument that this train could run as far as Leeds (00:15ish arrival) but certainly Derby (22:46) or Sheffield (23:30) wouldn't be unreasonable. Indeed a 19:25 Plymouth to Birmingham arriving around 23:00 or Derby around 23:45 wouldn't be unreasonable. However XC seem to finish pretty much before midnight across the network.

Of course as has been noted the late runs to Penzance could not operate as the stock would return north instead of continuing south.

It generally goes on to form the 2230 Birmingham New Street to Manchester Pic. There is already a 2203 and a 2309 from Birmingham New Street that go to Nottingham via Derby. The 2309 has a connection for Chesterfield and Sheffield for those that will need it, albeit with an hour to wait in Derby and a Sheffield arrival at 0152.

You suggest a 1925 from Plymouth but as noted there is already a 1944 departure which connects into the 2343 arrival at Birmingham New Street.

MidnightFlyer · 15 Apr 2018

Certain one of the Reading / Bristol services used to run through to Derby at 2315~ ex-New St, but that is long gone, probably with the standardisation recast a decade ago. Given there is a 2309 Nottingham I cannot see much call for it these days. Doesn't help there are no longer guards based at Derby either.

Iskra · 15 Apr 2018

MidnightFlyer said:
Certain one of the Reading / Bristol services used to run through to Derby at 2315~ ex-New St, but that is long gone, probably with the standardisation recast a decade ago. Given there is a 2309 Nottingham I cannot see much call for it these days. Doesn't help there are no longer guards based at Derby either.

Indeed, it came from further South than Bristol, I remember catching it when it was 47-hauled in VXC days.

I can understand the extremities of the network not having very late services, as that should be down to the local operator, but through the core XC is often the only option so should run later IMO.

Later services have been specified in the Northern Franchise, so perhaps XC may go the same way. It does seem to be one of those unfortunate 'proximity to the depot lottery' situations with the late evening and early morning services.

Starmill · 15 Apr 2018

Iskra said:
I can understand the extremities of the network not having very late services, as that should be down to the local operator, but through the core XC is often the only option so should run later IMO.

I agree - I would like to see a Birmingham to Manchester and Manchester to Birmingham service half an hour later than there currently is. I'm not sure it's very likely though!

Class 170101 · 15 Apr 2018

Starmill said:
It generally goes on to form the 2230 Birmingham New Street to Manchester Pic. There is already a 2203 and a 2309 from Birmingham New Street that go to Nottingham via Derby. The 2309 has a connection for Chesterfield and Sheffield for those that will need it, albeit with an hour to wait in Derby and a Sheffield arrival at 0152.

You suggest a 1925 from Plymouth but as noted there is already a 1944 departure which connects into the 2343 arrival at Birmingham New Street.

As long as the connections are reliable in both cases, although in the case of the former not great for having a sleep perhaps with the long wait at Derby.

221129 · 17 Apr 2018

Iskra said:
Indeed, it came from further South than Bristol, I remember catching it when it was 47-hauled in VXC days.

I can understand the extremities of the network not having very late services, as that should be down to the local operator, but through the core XC is often the only option so should run later IMO.

Later services have been specified in the Northern Franchise, so perhaps XC may go the same way. It does seem to be one of those unfortunate 'proximity to the depot lottery' situations with the late evening and early morning services.

The only way to do later core services is lose some of the extremes of the network.

Iskra · 17 Apr 2018

221129 said:
The only way to do later core services is lose some of the extremes of the network.

Could you explain that in further detail please?

Ianno87 · 17 Apr 2018

Iskra said:
Could you explain that in further detail please?

In order to form a back working from Plymouth at (say) 1925, one of the existing through Penzance services would have to be terminated at Plymouth to return north.

HowardGWR · 18 Apr 2018

Ianno87 said:
In order to form a back working from Plymouth at (say) 1925, one of the existing through Penzance services would have to be terminated at Plymouth to return north.

That might also deal with the inefficiency of running with fresh air over those extremities. We see this now when XC can't run through Dawlish at high tide in rough weather (just yesterday early on). They turn around at Exeter.

Poor evening XC service in the South West

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