TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

markymark2000 · 30 Mar 2018

It is very much like what Arriva do. Though not Traws Cymru, in Chester they had the 21 hourly (with the X30 made it half hourly to runcorn), they then cut the 21 back to a state where it will be massively underused then claim that due to lack of passengers, the service won't run.

WAG should employ someone like Megabus and National Express route planners to get a better idea on how routes should be ran. These companies are used to running long distance routes. Companies like First aren't used to running into the little villages and rarely run over 1h 30min each way so have little experience and will not even attempt to run alternative bids and would rather run as the tender was set out.

Traws Cymru should be ran as a commercial company (where possible) and external from the WAG. For example run what can be ran commercially and then have local councils top it up and pay diversion money etc. They should introduce a law of some sort and all NatEx & Megabus services which run entirely in Wales should all run under Traws Cyrmu brand to allow longer distance concessionary fares.

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Teflon Lettuce · 30 Mar 2018

markymark2000 said:
They should introduce a law of some sort and all NatEx & Megabus services which run entirely in Wales should all run under Traws Cyrmu brand to allow longer distance concessionary fares.

The problem with that idea is that no megabus or nat ex routes operate entirely in Wales.. all services are cross border

Dai Corner · 30 Mar 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
ah but you're confusing 2 seperate things there.... the 701 was a long distance limited stop local service operated by coaches, whereas Megabus is an express coach service. Megabus not only has extremely limited number of stops but also you have to prebook, whereas 701 and now T1C are pay on entry, so no need to plan ahead

Well, yes, but I'd imagine the majority of the passengers are between the towns and cities anyway? I could book now to travel at 8.30 in the morning. Megabus gives me an extra hour in bed if travelling from Aberystwyth and an extra hour in Cardiff while arriving about the same time. T1C is generally cheaper though, especially the £10 day ticket if applicable and free for over 60s. I'm surprised Megabus don't complain about unfair competition.

Teflon Lettuce said:
The problem with that idea is that no megabus or nat ex routes operate entirely in Wales.. all services are cross border

Where does the Aberystwyth - Cardiff continue to?

Teflon Lettuce · 30 Mar 2018

Dai Corner said:
Well, yes, but I'd imagine the majority of the passengers are between the towns and cities anyway? I could book now to travel at 8.30 in the morning. Megabus gives me an extra hour in bed if travelling from Aberystwyth and an extra hour in Cardiff while arriving about the same time. T1C is generally cheaper though, especially the £10 day ticket if applicable and free for over 60s. I'm surprised Megabus don't complain about unfair competition.

You'd be surprised the amount of passengers 701 used to carry from the villages!

As to megabus complaining about unfair competition... they have no claim under current regulations as they aren't a registered bus service {despite their name}

Dai Corner said:
Where does the Aberystwyth - Cardiff continue to?

continues on to London

Ayman Ilham · 31 Mar 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
not really... the whole popularity of the 701 was that it was a direct coach service... people don't like changing buses... even if the connection is operated by the same operator.... now think on this one... you decide to travel from Aber- Swansea... you get on the T1C at Aber... as you approach Carmarthen bus stn 2 mins late you see the T1S departing 2 mins early... you've missed your connection... but who do you complain to?

the driver of the T1C won't even be able to phone control to hold the connection if he knows he's going to be late can he?

Ah, good point! Ideally, they should run like the 701 or follow the same route as the current T1C but with coaches of course, only this time you got the TrawsCymru day ticket at £10 which really beats the previous £20 return Aberystwyth to Cardiff that the 701 had, as well as this one ticket being valid on other TC services across Wales! As for the connection issue, you could have a 5-10 minute gap to take delays into consideration but then, versatility could be lost!

Dai Corner said:
Well, yes, but I'd imagine the majority of the passengers are between the towns and cities anyway? I could book now to travel at 8.30 in the morning. Megabus gives me an extra hour in bed if travelling from Aberystwyth and an extra hour in Cardiff while arriving about the same time. T1C is generally cheaper though, especially the £10 day ticket if applicable and free for over 60s. I'm surprised Megabus don't complain about unfair competition.

Overall, it is still a fair competition since as of now, each one has different advantages and disadvantages:

Advantages of the current T1C:

Cheaper with excellent value £10 day ticket (£7 child or £25 group)
Can be used by concessionary / over 60 pass holders for free
Connects more areas like villages and other stops en route
Free to use for everyone on Saturdays until May this year
Better for spontaneous trips as tickets bought from the driver

Advantages of Megabus M7:

Considerably faster as it only stops in major towns and cities
Better timings for a day trip to Cardiff/Swansea from Aberystwyth
Uses proper coaches as opposed to service buses so much more comfort
Onboard facilities like toilets are necessary for journeys over 2 hours
Extends to London as a bonus to connecting the main Welsh cities

Rhydgaled · 31 Mar 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
it is now being routed via Llandysul? When Bryans coaches tried a journey via New Quay and Llandysul, Llandysul generated an average of approxiamately 1 passenger per journey! Also that means the new route misses Lampeter;

Going via Lampeter would certainly seem to be more sensible for an infrequent Aberystwyth-Cardiff service than via Llandysul. Only by detouring via New Quay, with the time penalty that would entail, would they be serving a similar population (New Quay + Llandysul + Pencader) as Lampeter.

Teflon Lettuce said:
really a route that bypasses Swansea is designed to shoot itself in the foot... just ask Arriva what effect doing so had on their Aberystwyth-Cardiff service.

I'm not sure I agree there. I seem to recall that neither of Arriva's coach services from Aberystwyth (10 and 20), one to Cardiff and one to Swansea, lasted very long. That suggests even Arriva's Aberystwyth-Swansea services failed to replicate Bryans Coaches' success; perhaps it was something else Bryans' were doing that attracted passengers as opposed to their route south of Carmarthen. There are already rail and bus services on a fairly frequent basis between Carmarthen and Swansea; admittedly a change is required at Carmarthen if coming from the T1 which isn't ideal, but there's hardly any reasonably direct public transport between Carmarthen and Cardiff. A motorist going to Cardiff from Carmarthen wouldn't go into Swansea and out again; missing out Swansea would be a big time saving which could help attract passengers going to Cardiff (the TrawsLinkCymru campaign for an Aberystwyth-Cardiff rail service suggested that the trains avoid Swansea for example).

Teflon Lettuce said:
Port Talbot is served once again... that was always a good traffic generator for the 701.

That might also be a plus assuming it stops near the railway station; I believe quite alot of pepole from Carmarthen and points west drive to Port Talbot to get a train, avoiding the slow rail detour via Swansea and possibly also the short Arriva 2/3-car DMUs in favour of 8-carriage Great Western IC125s. Perhaps they would use a fast coach link to Port Talbot instead of driving, but I suppose that's unlikely to work with just one or two trips per day on the new T1C.

Teflon Lettuce · 31 Mar 2018

Rhydgaled said:
Going via Lampeter would certainly seem to be more sensible for an infrequent Aberystwyth-Cardiff service than via Llandysul. Only by detouring via New Quay, with the time penalty that would entail, would they be serving a similar population (New Quay + Llandysul + Pencader) as Lampeter.

Remember though that Bryans Coaches tried a service via New Quay and Llandysul {750} which ran thurs and sat... even with New Quay on the route after a year of operation the service was still only averaging half a dozen passengers per journey and Bryans Coaches had to give up.. in truth there just isn't enough people living on that route to make it viable.. even New Quay doesn't have THAT large a permanent population... many of the properties there are holiday lets.

Rhydgaled said:
I'm not sure I agree there. I seem to recall that neither of Arriva's coach services from Aberystwyth (10 and 20), one to Cardiff and one to Swansea, lasted very long. That suggests even Arriva's Aberystwyth-Swansea services failed to replicate Bryans Coaches' success; perhaps it was something else Bryans' were doing that attracted passengers as opposed to their route south of Carmarthen.

how odd, you disagree with me and then go on to prove my point. Truth is that when Arriva ran the X40 via Swansea to Cardiff they did a reasonable trade and gave the 701 a run for it's money. However, as soon as Arriva split the service so that the Cardiff journeys ran direct with a separate service to Swansea neither service did well and that was the beginning of the end for their services... and was a huge boost for the 701

Rhydgaled said:
There are already rail and bus services on a fairly frequent basis between Carmarthen and Swansea; admittedly a change is required at Carmarthen if coming from the T1 which isn't ideal, but there's hardly any reasonably direct public transport between Carmarthen and Cardiff. A motorist going to Cardiff from Carmarthen wouldn't go into Swansea and out again; missing out Swansea would be a big time saving which could help attract passengers going to Cardiff (the TrawsLinkCymru campaign for an Aberystwyth-Cardiff rail service suggested that the trains avoid Swansea for example).

hmmm... I don't really think that the "direct" bus services from Carmarthen to Swansea are that attractive, especially for someone trying to travel from Aberystwyth or Lampeter. The most direct service is the X11 which whilst every half hour goes via Llanelli and takes 90 minutes, meaning a total journey time from Aber of nearly 4 hrs assuming good connections, whereas the 701 took only 2hr 50 min. Ok so there will be the new T1S under the new arrangements, but again the question has to be asked whether the splitting of traffic objectives will be conducive to the success of the new arrangements

Rhydgaled said:
That might also be a plus assuming it stops near the railway station; I believe quite alot of pepole from Carmarthen and points west drive to Port Talbot to get a train, avoiding the slow rail detour via Swansea and possibly also the short Arriva 2/3-car DMUs in favour of 8-carriage Great Western IC125s. Perhaps they would use a fast coach link to Port Talbot instead of driving, but I suppose that's unlikely to work with just one or two trips per day on the new T1C.

I'm sorry, but I would have to disagree with your supposition. What are you basing your "belief" on? In my experience people who wish to use the train will travel to their nearest railhead to catch a train. People also tend to automatically assume that the train will be quicker than a parallel bus/ coach service between the same 2 points. In fact, when driving the 701 I used to take great delight in pointing out the train leaving Port Talbot as we were passing the stn.... and then pointing it out again pulling into Cardiff at exactly the same time as our coach!

Ayman Ilham · 31 Mar 2018

I can see that the 701 was the most successful connection between Aberystwyth and Cardiff/Swansea based on what I'm reading here, so what was the main reason for its demise?

Teflon Lettuce · 31 Mar 2018

Ayman Ilham said:
I can see that the 701 was the most successful connection between Aberystwyth and Cardiff/Swansea based on what I'm reading here, so what was the main reason for its demise?

The owner of Bryan's Coaches wanted to retire, so the route was passed on to Lewis Coaches, Llanrhystud. However there were problems with the tours division there, and Lewis's went bankrupt. A number of local companies enquired about taking on the 701, but the WA decided to arbitarily HALVE the recompense per pass for the concessionary passes, therefore wrecking the economics of the service

Rhydgaled · 31 Mar 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
What are you basing your "belief" on?

Assuming that the 'belief' you are refering to is this one:

Rhydgaled said:
I believe quite alot of pepole from Carmarthen and points west drive to Port Talbot to get a train

then my reasons are as follows:

One of the Pembrokeshire AMs/MPs (Stephen Crabb MP if I recall correctly) describing Port Talbot Parkway as an important gateway station for Pembrokeshire (either when the refurbishment (with the new footbridge) was announced or the start of work or possibly when the new footbridge openned)
Both my parents often drive to Port Talbot when they use trains (my mother heading to Cardiff for rugby and my father on business trips to London). I've also been dropped/collected there by family members on a few occasions when they have been passing anyway and it tied in with my travel
The fact the station is called Port Talbot Parkway; the last word implying that it is intended to serve a wide area

Teflon Lettuce · 31 Mar 2018

Rhydgaled said:
Assuming that the 'belief' you are refering to is this one: then my reasons are as follows:

One of the Pembrokeshire AMs/MPs (Stephen Crabb MP if I recall correctly) describing Port Talbot Parkway as an important gateway station for Pembrokeshire (either when the refurbishment (with the new footbridge) was announced or the start of work or possibly when the new footbridge openned)

Both my parents often drive to Port Talbot when they use trains (my mother heading to Cardiff for rugby and my father on business trips to London). I've also been dropped/collected there by family members on a few occasions when they have been passing anyway and it tied in with my travel

The fact the station is called Port Talbot Parkway; the last word implying that it is intended to serve a wide area

so your belief is based on:

1. something that an MP/ AM has said without quoting any corroborating evidence/ research

2. Your family's own personal choices

3. the fact that the station is wrongly named... it is neither an "edge of town" stn and nor does it have extensive parking facilities {unless of course they have recently managed to build a new car park!}

I certainly never ever as a driver on the 701 ever had anyone get off the coach at Port Talbot to complete their journey by train. As I alluded to in a post above, it would've been a waste of time as the train was no quicker from PT- Cardiff than the coach was!

Statto · 1 Apr 2018

Looking at the map, would a Wrexham to Newtown via Welshpool service connecting with the T4 at Welshpool be viable?

Welshman · 1 Apr 2018

Statto said:
Looking at the map, would a Wrexham to Newtown via Welshpool service connecting with the T4 at Welshpool be viable?

As far as looking at a map goes, any other long-distance north-south bus connection warrants consideration.

But, with regard to the raison d'etre of the Traws Cymru network - i.e. the complimenting of exisiting rail services rather than their duplication, I wonder if it could be justified. Wrexham, Newtown and Welshpool [changing at Shrewsbury], and Cardiff are already served regularly by rail. It would probably be quicker to go to Cardiff/Newport and change there for a Valley Lines train rather than use a through bus. The only benefits as far as I can see would be in serving Oswestry and Brecon, currently off the national rail network. Would those two towns generate sufficient patronage from the north? I think not, sorry.

TheGrandWazoo · 1 Apr 2018

Statto said:
Looking at the map, would a Wrexham to Newtown via Welshpool service connecting with the T4 at Welshpool be viable?

In the Winckler report that the WG commissioned on TC services (that I personally feel was pretty superficial), the idea was that there were to be 3 future services, of which the T8 was exactly that from Newtown to Oswestry (the current tendered 71/X71) that would be extended to Wrexham.

In the event, the T6 was actually the Swansea to Brecon route (not part of the three recommended routes but had been mentioned as a possible future opportunity). The recommended T6 Rhyl - Ruthin - Wrexham is the current 51/X51.

The T7 was expected to be Carmarthen - Llandovery - Brecon - Abergavenny but since the report, the central part of the route has lost its bus service!

Welshman · 1 Apr 2018

TheGrandWazoo said:
In the event, the T6 was actually the Swansea to Brecon route (not part of the three recommended routes but had been mentioned as a possible future opportunity). The recommended T6 Rhyl - Ruthin - Wrexham is the current 51/X51.

Interesting that there was to be a T6 linking Rhyl with Wrexham.

As you say, this is now the current Arriva 51/X51, and, since March 11th this year there has been an enhanced evening and Sunday timetable supported by Denbighshire CC, and operated by Arriva, using "Sapphire" spec. deckers displaced from the Wrexham-Chester X1 service when new buses were introduced there.

So, as far as frequency and comfort is concerned, this is a TrawsCymru service in all but route number and specially-vynled buses!

quarella · 2 Apr 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
People also tend to automatically assume that the train will be quicker than a parallel bus/ coach service between the same 2 points. In fact, when driving the 701 I used to take great delight in pointing out the train leaving Port Talbot as we were passing the stn.... and then pointing it out again pulling into Cardiff at exactly the same time as our coach!

There are routes where bus/coach may be quicker. This was not one of them.
Comparing my Bryan's Coaches 701 timetable and the rail timetable it appears you were misleading your passengers. 701 Port Talbot Bus station 1050/1250 Cardiff (Philharmonic) 1140/1340. Train from Port Talbot Parkway currently at 1049/1249 London Paddington but would have been within a minute or so then arriving into Cardiff Central at 1123/1323 when, with a 701 pickup time (on request) at Pencoed McDonalds of 1118/1318 you would be on the M4 somewhere in the vicinity of junction 34. What you saw pulling into Cardiff Central, I would suggest was the stock for the 1155/1355 Cardiff - London Paddington.

Teflon Lettuce · 2 Apr 2018

quarella said:
There are routes where bus/coach may be quicker. This was not one of them.
Comparing my Bryan's Coaches 701 timetable and the rail timetable it appears you were misleading your passengers. 701 Port Talbot Bus station 1050/1250 Cardiff (Philharmonic) 1140/1340. Train from Port Talbot Parkway currently at 1049/1249 London Paddington but would have been within a minute or so then arriving into Cardiff Central at 1123/1323 when, with a 701 pickup time (on request) at Pencoed McDonalds of 1118/1318 you would be on the M4 somewhere in the vicinity of junction 34. What you saw pulling into Cardiff Central, I would suggest was the stock for the 1155/1355 Cardiff - London Paddington.

1. a very old timetable... the Pencoed stop was deleted when the service went to twice a day
2. How could I be misleading my passengers when I was pointing out the train leaving at Port Talbot... and then pointing out the same train on arriving at Cardiff? I was observing. You state it might've been another train moving onto station and out of service... is it normal practice to do so with all lights on and passengers on board?

philthetube · 4 Apr 2018

markymark2000 said:
They should introduce a law of some sort and all NatEx & Megabus services which run entirely in Wales should all run under Traws Cyrmu brand to allow longer distance concessionary fares.

And if Traws Cyrmu run to form Megabus and National Express would probably say, it is not worth operating in Wales anymore , Goodbye,

WelshBuses93 · 5 Apr 2018

New T1C timetable is now available.
https://www.ceredigion.gov.uk/media/3849/t1c.pdf

Teflon Lettuce · 5 Apr 2018

WelshBuses93 said:
New T1C timetable is now available.
https://www.ceredigion.gov.uk/media/3849/t1c.pdf

Though it doesn't say so, I assume this timetable will be stopping at the points shown. Seems a bit odd.. especially seeing as though it won't be stopping at Pencader, Alltwalis and Peniel mon-sat but will on Sunday. As for the stop at the Bowen Arms, well what can be said about it... a lot of messing about to put in a stop keeping the 15 mile rule whilst deliberately avoiding a main traffic objective {Swansea} without saving any real time {a saving of 17 minutes- not really important in a journey over 3.5 hrs long}

One of the main reasons the 701 was so successful was that people in the villages didn't have to travel any further than their nearest bus stop yet here we have a timetable where most people will have to journey a great distance to get to a stopping place.

All in all, it appears to me that my fears are to be proved correct. The T1C as it is now has failed as it is a bus- therefore proving WAG right when they said there was no call for an Aber-Cardiff link... "But" said everyone.. the success of the 701 was that it was a coach. "ok" says the WAG "we'll put a coach on the service and see what happens" but, so they can be proved right, the WAG have so screwed up the timetable, removing 2 major traffic generators {Lampeter and Swansea}, messed about with the timings {there was a reason why the 0740 journey on the 701 was more popular than the 0940} and generally made the service of no use to no man, that the new "service" will be doomed to failure from the off...

It is also of note, that with only 10 days to go Traveline has details of the new T1S uploaded but is still refusing to give details of the new T1C timetable!

splashoutradio · 7 Apr 2018

Teflon Lettuce said:
It is also of note, that with only 10 days to go Traveline has details of the new T1S uploaded but is still refusing to give details of the new T1C timetable!

There does appear to be a worrying lack of information regarding the forthcoming changes. I sent a query to TrawsCymru over Twitter last week, and recently flagged it up again, but as of yet have had no reply.

Markdvdman · 13 Apr 2018

splashoutradio said:
There does appear to be a worrying lack of information regarding the forthcoming changes. I sent a query to TrawsCymru over Twitter last week, and recently flagged it up again, but as of yet have had no reply.

Trawscymru started reporting the new T1C timetable as of yesterday.

It is destined to fail as a passenger last Friday paid to go to Lampeter. A few for Swansea to - change at Caramarthen for Swansea????? WG are pathetic!

Janoš Vranek · 16 Apr 2018

On Saturday I got the T1c from Cardiff to Llanon and it took 2 hours 20 mins! As it was a Saturday and it gets quite busy Mid Wales Travel sent a coach to supplement the First bus but on the way back the Mid Wales coach went straight to Aberystwyth via Pencader, Ffostrasol and Synod Inn and we only stopped at Cross Hands, Carmarthen and Aberaeron, the unlucky souls who got the First bus went to Sarn and Swansea and then followed the Normal T1 route to Aber so they arrived 2 hours later!

Markdvdman said:
Trawscymru started reporting the new T1C timetable as of yesterday.

swifty · 16 Apr 2018

I noted a fully T1C branded NAT Mercedes Tourismo near their Cardiff Bay depot this morning. Didn’t manage to catch the reg though.

WelshBuses93 · 16 Apr 2018

It is registered BG65VXH.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/129716166@N03/39692280970/in/photostream/

Hardcastle · 26 May 2018

Does anyone know if the free weekend travel is to continue beyond May this year ?

GrogSmuggler · 26 May 2018

See this post.

Hardcastle · 26 May 2018

Thanks for the info as its still mentioned on the Trans Cymru website tonight.

WelshBuses93 · 26 May 2018

It's been extended for a further 12 months.
https://gov.wales/about/cabinet/decisions/2018/apr-jun/transprt1/ks0713/?lang=en

Hardcastle · 27 May 2018

That's good thanks for the updates guys.

TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

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