The decline of GWR...

Schweir · 17 Apr 2018

Is GWR declining? In terms of:

- Upkeep of trains (as mentioned in another thread the Turbo stock is now very tired)
- Pricing (fewer good advance fares?)
- Catering (removal of buffet on IET's with the trolleys having a weaker range of products)
- Cancellations?
- Any other factors.

I look forward to receiving everyone's opinions

RailUK Forums

matt_world2004 · 17 Apr 2018

Schweir said:
Is GWR declining? In terms of:

- Upkeep of trains (as mentioned in another thread the Turbo stock is now very tired)
- Pricing (fewer good advance fares?)
- Cancellations?
- Any other factors.

I look forward to receiving everyone's opinions

Frequency increase from hayes to paddington is very much welcome.

dorsetdesiro · 17 Apr 2018

As much I love the look & feel of GWR especially the HST but the new 800s have disappointing interiors that First Class looks like a slight improved version of Standard. The HST's First Class seems more luxurious in comparison!

It seems a pity that new trains must follow government regulations such as thinner seats, ironing boards etc for the sake of safety (cost cutting more like) that the comfort quality is worse than on older trains and the same downgrade will happen with East Coast's new Azumas so ScotRail are indeed fortunate by getting the HSTs second hand!

The luxurious First Class HST interior and better features of the HST should have been replicated onto the 800s. The GWR brand says to me "our intercity first class will offer luxury hotel quality & comfort" which this seems fairly true on the HST but not on the 800 which is more like "our IET first class will offer comfort National Express airport coach style"

Master29 · 17 Apr 2018

I wouldn`t say declining. It`s hardly been the stuff of legends for years now has it. I do agree that the 800 is not a worthy successor to the HST though perhaps given time and some positive overhauls.

F Great Eastern · 17 Apr 2018

Bear in mind that the 800s were a DFT train, not a GWR train.

Agree that the FGW HSTS are better though.

Mag_seven · 17 Apr 2018

On the plus side an 8 car 387 is far superior to what ran before.

GarethW · 17 Apr 2018

Too many line-blocks for dead pigeons.

Andrewlong · 17 Apr 2018

Class 800 is a bit too beige for me. No opening windows in vestibules when your packed I'm and need some air. Class 387 big advance on 165/6 especially if you want to do some work with your laptop. Table, power socket, wifi. What more can you want. Far superior to the 3rd class offering you get on class 700 between Kings Cross and Huntingdon

thelongestroad · 17 Apr 2018

From a member of staff’s perspective: things have been going downhill since last summer. Morale is very low and daily widespread disruption is part of the norm. Senior management seem detached from reality.

Basically, GWR doesn’t care any more and it shows.

tbtc · 17 Apr 2018

F Great Eastern said:
Bear in mind that the 800s were a DFT train, not a GWR train

Agreed - the Government specified/ ordered the trains, the Government are responsible for any problems with them (if anything, the fact that they are better on diesel than the specification reflects well on Hitatchi).

But we probably don't need another 800/801-bashing thread. Instead I'll say that, if you asked this question fo most TOCs at any time in the last decade you'd generally get an answer along the line of "there are fewer of the cheapest advance fares, staff morale is at an all time low, industrial relations aren't great, the litter-picking could be better" etc.

Not having a dig at anyone on the thread, just a general point that there's a temptation to look at "now" and think that things have never been this bad/low (at any TOC).

At the same time as all the negativity, there's been the biggest transformation at the Paddington end of the line in many people's lifetimes, there's a huge increase in capacity, there are frequency increases on the way... some other lines would look enviously at the GWML!

cactustwirly · 17 Apr 2018

tbtc said:
At the same time as all the negativity, there's been the biggest transformation at the Paddington end of the line in many people's lifetimes, there's a huge increase in capacity, there are frequency increases on the way... some other lines would look enviously at the GWML!

You could say that, but other lines don't have a lengthy list of short forms & cancellations daily.

CentralTrainer · 17 Apr 2018

Just ask those poor peasants who live in Hereford and Malvern to regale you with their daily experiences travelling eastwards to work and westwards home each day

co-tr-paul · 17 Apr 2018

Meanwhile, ask anyone who travels regularly. In Cornwall and you get the response " don't want anyone else " ... . Timetable and stock improvements both now and future.
There were big fears down here last franchise change about somebody else getting it and word is its a big no no re franchise split last consultation. The GWR franchise spans different areas with different needs which everyone needs to bear in mind when being .critical

47271 · 17 Apr 2018

But wasn't First Great Western regarded as one of our most wretched operators ten or so years ago? I don't think that 'decline' is the most appropriate word to describe the situation. They used to be appalling, maybe they got a bit better, now they've returned to form.

I don't use them that often but they haven't done anything to upset me in the past two or three months. The last bad do I had with them was in November - I travelled from Paddington to Oxford in the declassified First Class section of a Turbo. Worn threadbare and smelling of sick. Lovely.

Taunton · 18 Apr 2018

matt_world2004 said:
Frequency increase from hayes to paddington is very much welcome.

Isn't that TfL's doing as part of the run up to Crossrail?

Of course, the elimination of TWO-car dmus which periodically (or more often) turned up on the service, to the extent of passengers being unable to board, has gone. There must be some mechanical feature of the 4-car emus which means they have to be operated as 8-car formations. What a disappointment to the beancounters.

irish_rail · 18 Apr 2018

co-tr-paul said:
Meanwhile, ask anyone who travels regularly. In Cornwall and you get the response " don't want anyone else " ... . Timetable and stock improvements both now and future.
There were big fears down here last franchise change about somebody else getting it and word is its a big no no re franchise split last consultation. The GWR franchise spans different areas with different needs which everyone needs to bear in mind when being .critical

Which is why Devon and Cornwall rail will no doubt happen!!!

matt_world2004 · 18 Apr 2018

Taunton said:
Isn't that TfL's doing as part of the run up to Crossrail?

Of course, the elimination of TWO-car dmus which periodically (or more often) turned up on the service, to the extent of passengers being unable to board, has gone. There must be some mechanical feature of the 4-car emus which means they have to be operated as 8-car formations. What a disappointment to the beancounters.

I think its more a heathrow connect doing. They need something to replace the heathrow connect calls when heathrow airport holdings cancel them at a drop of a hat otherwise theyw would get fined more.

The Ham · 18 Apr 2018

Given that GWR are doing a lot, bearing in mind that the last franchise renewal sounded more like a new franchise award and the recent news of GWR running the Heathrow services going forward, is not that surprising that they have taken their eyes of the ball on a few things.

Whenever you have trains coming to the end of their current use you'll find some bad seating covers. There were quite a few towards the end of SWT's reign. Which is possibly the reason for them on the TV turbos, especially given the lack of rolling stock due to the lack of expected electrification.

With regards to the 800's seats, yes more could have been done for first class (maybe giving the franchise holders at the time a chance to comment on some of the options available). However the problem with seats is that there is no one seat that everyone will like and so unless you put the save seats as you have in the trains that are being replaced then you're going to get complaints (and even then there's going to be those who don't like the current seats who will complain).

Given what going on, I can see why some things may have slipped, why there's some negativity about the 800's, etc. However you so have to compare the current franchise extension with those from the ICWC franchise where there's been over 5 years of the same again when if the last franchise award had gone well there would have been lots of improvements by now.

43074 · 18 Apr 2018

tbtc said:
Not having a dig at anyone on the thread, just a general point that there's a temptation to look at "now" and think that things have never been this bad/low (at any TOC).

At the same time as all the negativity, there's been the biggest transformation at the Paddington end of the line in many people's lifetimes, there's a huge increase in capacity, there are frequency increases on the way... some other lines would look enviously at the GWML!

Yes there's lots of decent stuff to look forward to in terms of capacity and timetable improvements but actually people are judging GWR on how their service is now, because they're travelling now. I think the extent to which things will improve is overstated anyway as the same problems with the infrastructure and the overall fragility of the network essentially running at capacity will persist regardless, if not being exacerbated by trying to run more trains in the first place.

If staff morale is as low as thelongestroad says it is, and management are as detached as they sound they will struggle to reach their 'isn't everything lovely' vision as its railway people who make the railway work: VTEC & GTR seem to have similar problems and of course that is reflected in the quality of the service, as is well documented on here in both instances.

DelW · 18 Apr 2018

I mainly use GWR on the North Downs line, plus occasional trips on the South Wales main line or further afield. For me, as a non-commuter, GWR generally seem to do a fair job.
Plus points:

green livery looks smart and so far is generally well-kept
the last refurb on the HSTs, especially in first class, gave a good quality interior (haven't yet been on the DfT-spec 800s)
interior of the turbos is dated by the First Group blue-and-pink colour scheme, but seats are still much more comfortable (more space, better padded) than SWT/SWR's equivalents

Minus points:

confusion over classification / declassification of first class areas on turbos
lack of ticket checking even on routes with many unstaffed stations

I'll be interested to see how the rumoured arrival of 769s on the NDL will affect my views.

BigCj34 · 18 Apr 2018

I cannot say I was impressed by the comfort of the seats in Standard class. Not much cushioning to speak of and easily more comfort on National Express coach, even Megabus seats are softer. A buffet counter should also be available as well, it is understandable that there might not be one when the sets were too short anyway (like the Voyagers), but should have been designed into the 800s.

Considering these are flagship Intercity trains and supposed to have the highest level of comfort, really should be better.

Bletchleyite · 18 Apr 2018

47271 said:
But wasn't First Great Western regarded as one of our most wretched operators ten or so years ago? I don't think that 'decline' is the most appropriate word to describe the situation. They used to be appalling, maybe they got a bit better, now they've returned to form.

I don't use them that often but they haven't done anything to upset me in the past two or three months. The last bad do I had with them was in November - I travelled from Paddington to Oxford in the declassified First Class section of a Turbo. Worn threadbare and smelling of sick. Lovely.

I think there is, and always was, a clear split between the HST operated InterCity services which generally came across as quite good, and the Thames Valley local Turbo services which are, and long have been, utter dross, though the EMUs have provided a welcome improvement.

Doctor Fegg · 18 Apr 2018

tbtc said:
Not having a dig at anyone on the thread, just a general point that there's a temptation to look at "now" and think that things have never been this bad/low (at any TOC).

I think it would be accurate to say that reliability and punctuality have never been as bad/low on the Cotswold Line as they are now.

RecentTrainTimes gives a peek into it, but a better insight is offered by the 27-page thread on the GW Coffee Shop which chronicles the cancellations and substitutions day in, day out, since the start of the year.

It's not uncommon for one 8-coach HST to be cancelled and the following 8-coach HST to be replaced with a 2 or 3-coach Turbo. There have been numerous occasions at weekends where a string of cancellations have left 3- or 4-hour service gaps.

I'd estimate that I currently use GWR half as much as I did a few years ago, perhaps less. Two other factors: the effective fare hike caused by introducing new restrictions in the evening peak (in 2015), and the pitiful provision for bikes on the new IETs. These were built with four 'bike and bulk' spaces, but GWR are only allowing two bikes to be carried per train.

Oxford Parkway is doing very nicely out of former Cotswold Line passengers. I'd always expected the new Chiltern service to take a chunk out of GWR's custom in Woodstock and thereabouts, but what's startling is the number of Charlbury people who are now choosing to drive to Parkway in preference to catching the train from their own town. GWR, to put not too fine a point on it, have royally screwed up.

davetheguard · 18 Apr 2018

I use GWR about three times a week on average, mainly in Devon. The main issue down here at the moment is about short forming on local stopping trains, with some passengers being left behind, unable to squeeze on board.

Having said that, it's jam tomorrow, and the jam is on its way. Doubling of services to half hourly during the day between Exeter & Paignton is on the cards for December 2018; as is these trains being formed of 4 cars - currently we're getting mainly 2 cars, with some 3's and some as single cars!. In short, things will get a lot better, and soon; but I'm not sure how well GWR is getting that message across to ordinary passengers.....

cactustwirly · 18 Apr 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I think there is, and always was, a clear split between the HST operated InterCity services which generally came across as quite good, and the Thames Valley local Turbo services which are, and long have been, utter dross, though the EMUs have provided a welcome improvement.

Hmm, I was a semi regular user of the TV stoppers, and they used to be quite good.
Just before the rebranding, the turbos seemed to be well maintained, there were very few shortforms & day to day cancellations.
Now the 387s have arrived the service has declined with daily shortforms 4 vice 8, and cancellations due to driver shortages.

The decline was most noticeable around July, when Turbos were cascaded too early to Bristol IMO, leaving a load of 2 car Turbos on the mainlines, when they should have been at least 3 cars.

Bletchleyite · 18 Apr 2018

cactustwirly said:
Hmm, I was a semi regular user of the TV stoppers, and they used to be quite good.

Seriously overcrowded, often late, and with non-functional aircon on Class 166s (and then they even had the cheek to lock the windows when it still wasn't working; fortunately my house key opens them).

Poor is the only word for it.

nat67 · 18 Apr 2018

dorsetdesiro said:
As much I love the look & feel of GWR especially the HST but the new 800s have disappointing interiors that First Class looks like a slight improved version of Standard. The HST's First Class seems more luxurious in comparison!

It seems a pity that new trains must follow government regulations such as thinner seats, ironing boards etc for the sake of safety (cost cutting more like) that the comfort quality is worse than on older trains and the same downgrade will happen with East Coast's new Azumas so ScotRail are indeed fortunate by getting the HSTs second hand!

The luxurious First Class HST interior and better features of the HST should have been replicated onto the 800s. The GWR brand says to me "our intercity first class will offer luxury hotel quality & comfort" which this seems fairly true on the HST but not on the 800 which is more like "our IET first class will offer comfort National Express airport coach style"

The new ironing board seats are poor, compared to the MK1's you could sleep on them. And with the displacement of HST's from 8 to 5 car is stupid.

PHILIPE · 18 Apr 2018

nat67 said:
The new ironing board seats are poor, compared to the MK1's you could sleep on them. And with the displacement of HST's from 8 to 5 car is stupid.

The ironing board seats were procured by DFT.
Another feature has been mass cancellation of HSS at a weekend due to shortage of drivers although this can be attributed to late electrification resulting in late cascading of trains to other areas and Class 800s not accepted into traffic thus reducing time available for training.

DarloRich · 18 Apr 2018

I think GWR recall started to decline in about the mid 1930's due to the poor global economic conditions.....................

WelshBluebird · 18 Apr 2018

Based on the current situation with the lack of stock availability and staff availability, undeniably yes, GWR have got worse over the last 12 months or so. It is difficult because it isn't really GWR's fault (most of the issues come from the delays in electrification), but that doesn't help passengers who are being badly affected by endless lists of cancellations and severe delays.

The decline of GWR...

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