Could Green Line expand?

NorthKent1989 · 21 Apr 2018

As a semi regular user of Green Line Route 702: London to Bracknell and Reading, I think this is a useful operation, and could this expand to have some routes into Kent and Surrey?

I know the network was far more expansive up until the 1980s and some routes have been cut or lost entirely the X26 is the last remnant of the once semi orbital 726 and is now under TfL operation and lies well with the Greater London boundary.

Could Green Line create new routes into new outer London housing estates where trains aren't an option?

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MotCO · 21 Apr 2018

I think that Green Line's demise was probably the effect of rail travel becoming more reliable and traffic congestion getting worse. The only way Green Line could now be a viable option is for cross-country or orbital routes where traffic is not too bad, and the time taken for the journey is better than the into and out of London option by train. It would have to be a regular and frequent route to attract custom, particularly the casual traveller, and serve a key traffic objective such as a Bluewater type shopping centre or airport.

Having said that, there have been attempts at a South East to Gatwick route (Greenline 795 from Southend or OFJ from Medway) which have both ceased, so clearly there was either insufficient custom, poor promotion or poor/infrequent timings, or a mixture of all three.

Commuter routes may be an option - those from Kent seem to be successful, but even then, there has been some retrenchment.

Ideas for new routes? Stanstead to Gatwick via Bluewater, making use of the M25, but coming off to serve nearby towns (e.g. Orpington or Sevenoaks). Gatwick to Heathrow via Kingston, maybe extended to Windsor and Reading if operated by Reading Transport.

gingerheid · 21 Apr 2018

I don't see it getting any easier to operate coach services in the SE any time soon; generally coaches are only thriving on routes you can't reasonably do by train, or where the train services haven't seen the vast scale of improvement that most have. In fact; another batch of journeys may be under threat of being too much far better done by train soon, such as Norwich - Stansted, Cambridge - Stansted / Gatwick (and Heathrow once Crossrail is a thing), and the remainder of Cambridge - London.

It's now not just coach services that are under threat from trains; even the local bus routes left at the county end of former Greenline routes (like Royston - Cambridge) are now suffering too.

Samuel88 · 21 Apr 2018

I'm not so pessimistic! I think that as more and more people are pushed out of London, bus services might actually improve!

PeterC · 21 Apr 2018

With the break up of LCBS the Green Line brand lost its way. I think that there is scope for a few more high quality limited stop routes in the Home Counties and the outer Greater London boroughs both radial and circumfrential but without a unifying organisation such as LBCS or the old London Transport to ensure a consistent and well marketed product there would be little value for the operator in Green Line branding.

Bookd · 21 Apr 2018

The old style intensive Green Line service became very unreliable in the 70s due to a mixture of traffic delays and staff shortages. Local radio traffic reports at the time usually included a long list of Green Line cancellations, and not surprisingly passenger use fell away.

NorthKent1989 · 21 Apr 2018

MotCO said:
I think that Green Line's demise was probably the effect of rail travel becoming more reliable and traffic congestion getting worse. The only way Green Line could now be a viable option is for cross-country or orbital routes where traffic is not too bad, and the time taken for the journey is better than the into and out of London option by train. It would have to be a regular and frequent route to attract custom, particularly the casual traveller, and serve a key traffic objective such as a Bluewater type shopping centre or airport.

Having said that, there have been attempts at a South East to Gatwick route (Greenline 795 from Southend or OFJ from Medway) which have both ceased, so clearly there was either insufficient custom, poor promotion or poor/infrequent timings, or a mixture of all three.

Commuter routes may be an option - those from Kent seem to be successful, but even then, there has been some retrenchment.

Ideas for new routes? Stanstead to Gatwick via Bluewater, making use of the M25, but coming off to serve nearby towns (e.g. Orpington or Sevenoaks). Gatwick to Heathrow via Kingston, maybe extended to Windsor and Reading if operated by Reading Transport.

Yes orbital long distance routes would realistically be more successful, Boris Johnson promised such routes back in 2009 but all we got was a revamped and shortened 726, now known as the X26.

In a way it was rather short sighted of the bosses to massively cut the 726/X26 in 1998 considering how just weeks later Bluewater opened and a decade later Ebbsfleet International station opened up too, an orbital bus link linking two international transportation hubs with major town centres in between would do wonders today, the 724, the North of London equivalent is still successful of course the 724 is still Green Line operated and the 726/X26 was snatched up by TfL years ago.

Samuel88 said:
I'm not so pessimistic! I think that as more and more people are pushed out of London, bus services might actually improve!

Yes I quite agree, especially with all the new homes and suburban housing estates that have been built over the last decade, some of these complexes in near towns with sub standard train services to London, I'm sure an Orbital link from Dartford to Gatwick, serving new, remote housing estates along the way would be very welcome

Statto · 21 Apr 2018

How reliable would the X26 be if it went to Kent via the old 726, it takes just under 2 hours during the day as it is, & 2hr 20min in the peaks, going to Kent would take at least another hour & a half, & longer in the peaks?

transmanche · 21 Apr 2018

NorthKent1989 said:
the 724, the North of London equivalent is still successful of course the 724 is still Green Line operated and the 726/X26 was snatched up by TfL years ago.

The difference between the 724 and the 726 is that the 724 operates mostly outside Greater London - probably around 50 of its 57 route miles. Whereas the 726 (originally Windsor-Gravesend, but truncated to Heathrow Aiport-Dartford by 1991) ran almost entirely in Greater London by the time that it joined the London Bus Network. Today's X26 (Heathrow Airport-West Croydon) is just 24 miles long and runs entirely in Greater London.

My understanding is that far from 'snatching up' the 726, LRT 'rescued' it in 1991, as London Country North West (who operated it alongside fellow ex-LCBS operator, Kentish Bus) wanted to withdraw the route. The 726/X26 has now been part of the TfL bus network for far longer than it was a Green Line service.

Statto · 21 Apr 2018

transmanche said:
The difference between the 724 and the 726 is that the 724 operates mostly outside Greater London - probably around 50 of its 57 route miles. Whereas the 726 (originally Windsor-Gravesend, but truncated to Heathrow Aiport-Dartford by 1991) ran almost entirely in Greater London by the time that it joined the London Bus Network. Today's X26 (Heathrow Airport-West Croydon) is just 24 miles long and runs entirely in Greater London.

My understanding is that far from 'snatching up' the 726, LRT 'rescued' it in 1991, as London Country North West (who operated it alongside fellow ex-LCBS operator, Kentish Bus) wanted to withdraw the route. The 726/X26 has now been part of the TfL bus network for far longer than it was a Green Line service.

Ironically London Buses wanted to withdraw the 726 in the mid 90s, they cut early morning & late evening services, ended up being saved, changed to X26 cut to Croydon, but frequency increased to 2 buses an hour.

Hophead · 21 Apr 2018

Statto said:
Ironically London Buses wanted to withdraw the 726 in the mid 90s, they cut early morning & late evening services, ended up being saved, changed to X26 cut to Croydon, but frequency increased to 2 buses an hour.

And is now double-deck (which wouldn't be feasible if extended east via Shortlands and its low bridge).

Statto · 22 Apr 2018

Hophead said:
And is now double-deck (which wouldn't be feasible if extended east via Shortlands and its low bridge).

Yep, had a ride on the X26 when i visited London last Autumn, nice to have deckers on the route, also going down the Perimeter Road around Heathrow, get birds eye view of the planes taking off/landing, all other routes go on a different route Hatton Cross to Heathrow.

class387 · 22 Apr 2018

NorthKent1989 said:
In a way it was rather short sighted of the bosses to massively cut the 726/X26 in 1998 considering how just weeks later Bluewater opened and a decade later Ebbsfleet International station opened up too, an orbital bus link linking two international transportation hubs with major town centres in between would do wonders today, the 724, the North of London equivalent is still successful of course the 724 is still Green Line operated and the 726/X26 was snatched up by TfL years ago.

The 724 isn't really that successful as a 'Green Line' route though. It is well used, but only as a local bus for journeys like St Albans to Watford.

Wirewiper · 22 Apr 2018

The National Express routes from Central London out to Gatwick, Luton and Stansted Airports function pretty much as Green Line routes might have done in the 1980s (and the 757 to Luton Airport still does). The 758 survives because of the poor location of Hemel Hempstead railway station and the proximity of many estates to the M1 Motorway. The 724 has gained more importance simply because many of the parallel bus routes have been reduced, curtailed or withdrawn totally over the years. The 702 seems to have found a niche and is the closest we have to a "traditional" Green Line radial route, although even that has a Motorway thrash.

I think what finally did it for traditional radial Green Line routes was the Greater London Council withdrawing subsidies.

NorthKent1989 · 22 Apr 2018

In regards to the 727/X26 running to Dartford/Bluewater/Ebbsfleet
Its more about creating connections between different town centres
In outer south London, for instance Kingston to Croydon, or
Sutton to Bromley or Croydon to Bexleyheath, of course such a route these would be difficult to manage sadly due to traffic jams and passenger usage.

There could be room for a Bexleyheath to Sutton express bus link however

Simon75 · 22 Apr 2018

Arriva (current owner of Greenline, Reading buses use the name under licence as First buses dos) seems to brand the 724 as a Arriva bus with small Greenline branding (taken Jan 2018 at Watford Junction station.

Busaholic · 22 Apr 2018

NorthKent1989 said:
In regards to the 727/X26 running to Dartford/Bluewater/Ebbsfleet
Its more about creating connections between different town centres
In outer south London, for instance Kingston to Croydon, or
Sutton to Bromley or Croydon to Bexleyheath, of course such a route these would be difficult to manage sadly due to traffic jams and passenger usage.

There could be room for a Bexleyheath to Sutton express bus link however

Prior to the 269's extension from Sidcup to Bromley in 1985, there was no direct bus route between those two places, the 725 having performed the task since the early 1950s until its (and the later 726's) withdrawal. I can remember standing in Bromley Market Square in the morning rush hour waiting for a 227 to my work at Beckenham Library and, more than once, seeing as many as three 725s go by Croydon bound, with only one going beyond there. There were regular scheduled journeys in the peaks then to West Croydon from the Dartford direction, plus reliefs, and these were near enough full: this was 1967/8.

MotCO · 22 Apr 2018

Hophead said:
And is now double-deck (which wouldn't be feasible if extended east via Shortlands and its low bridge).

Could always use bendybuses :smile:

Seriously, in order to cope with capacity and probably help with timing/reliability, if the route was extended east to Bluewater which would require single deckers if routed through Shortlands and Bromley, the frequency could be increased, which may actually make it even more popular.

Brown · 22 Apr 2018

They should extend few services to Wokingham which would benefit the locals. Either 702 or any service which connects the town to Heathrow or Victoria. Especially, Heathrow would be beneficial.

alex397 · 22 Apr 2018

MotCO said:
Ideas for new routes? Stanstead to Gatwick via Bluewater, making use of the M25, but coming off to serve nearby towns (e.g. Orpington or Sevenoaks).

I certainly think that idea has potential. Kent and the tip of South East London has no direct transport to any airport (except maybe Luton via Thameslink), so I can see the appeal. I am surprised there is no direct link to any of the London airports. For example, from east Kent, it takes about 2 hours to reach any airport - its also expensive and quite a hassle, especially as most journeys are via central London. I've found Gatwick particularly unreliable to get to by train (*cough* Southern *cough*).

There have been attempts to link Kent with Gatwick. The most recent attempt was just a few years ago with National Express operating a route from Thanet, Canterbury, Medway Towns and Maidstone to Gatwick Airport. Sadly that didn't last long, but I don't think it was publicized enough.

If a Greenline style service was started to link areas of Kent/SE London to Gatwick (not neccessarily as far as east Kent, but some of the towns of west Kent), I think it would have to be fairly frequent (hourly?), and run very early and very late, to become a reliable and useful link. Which means it would be expensive to operate, particularly when first starting up the route.

AM9 · 22 Apr 2018

class387 said:
The 724 isn't really that successful as a 'Green Line' route though. It is well used, but only as a local bus for journeys like St Albans to Watford.

Whilst I accept that quite a lot of users only see it as a limited stop route 321 between Watford and St Albans, (or a limited stop 300/301 between St Albans and Welwyn Garden City), there seem to be a fair number of passengers with Luggage (probably Heathrow bound). The St Albans to Ware section has longer distance riders who see it as an east-west transport service, just as there used to be a network of railway branch lines across Hertfordshire.

Statto · 23 Apr 2018

Traffic conditions haven't helped with reliability, coupled with in the 80s coaches being replaced by dual purpose Leyland Nationals on some routes, then D-Reg with the splitting of London Country, with improvement on the railway network, main reasons why the Greenline network has been reduced.

A0wen · 23 Apr 2018

AM9 said:
Whilst I accept that quite a lot of users only see it as a limited stop route 321 between Watford and St Albans, (or a limited stop 300/301 between St Albans and Welwyn Garden City), there seem to be a fair number of passengers with Luggage (probably Heathrow bound). The St Albans to Ware section has longer distance riders who see it as an east-west transport service, just as there used to be a network of railway branch lines across Hertfordshire.

It's stretching it to say there used to be "a network of railway branch lines across Hertfordshire" when commenting on the 724 - there are 3 which 'shadowed' bits of the route the 724 takes, Hertford - WGC and Hatfield - St Albans and Watford - Rickmasnworth but all were pre-Beeching closures, so well over 50 years ago.

The other branch lines in Herts which have disappeared are Harpenden - Hemel (pre Beeching), Welwyn - Luton (Beeching), Hitchin - Bedford (Beeching) and St Margarets - Buntingford (Beeching), but none of those cover the 724's route.

The 724's 'draw' is that it terminates at Heathrow and if you're more concerned about cost than time it's not a bad way to get to Heathrow, particularly given the train journey requires either 2 or 3 changes depending on where you're travelling from and the change can be a faff if you've got luggage.

Services like Green Line as others have said, tend to work well where there isn't a competing rail line - which rules out most of the Home Counties > London routes. Hemel's an exception as the railway station is miles out of town. Windsor and Luton's services have survived due to the tourist traffic to the airport, Legoland and Windsor.

It's also worth remembering some of the existing bus services are 'take overs' of parts of Green Line routes e.g. the 100/101 between Stevenage and Luton was the 750/751 (which at its peak ran from Cheshunt to Hemel)

Typhoon · 23 Apr 2018

alex397 said:
I certainly think that idea has potential. Kent and the tip of South East London has no direct transport to any airport (except maybe Luton via Thameslink), so I can see the appeal. I am surprised there is no direct link to any of the London airports. For example, from east Kent, it takes about 2 hours to reach any airport - its also expensive and quite a hassle, especially as most journeys are via central London. I've found Gatwick particularly unreliable to get to by train (*cough* Southern *cough*).

There have been attempts to link Kent with Gatwick. The most recent attempt was just a few years ago with National Express operating a route from Thanet, Canterbury, Medway Towns and Maidstone to Gatwick Airport. Sadly that didn't last long, but I don't think it was publicized enough.

If a Greenline style service was started to link areas of Kent/SE London to Gatwick (not neccessarily as far as east Kent, but some of the towns of west Kent), I think it would have to be fairly frequent (hourly?), and run very early and very late, to become a reliable and useful link. Which means it would be expensive to operate, particularly when first starting up the route.

There is a service (http://connections4you.net/shuttle-service/shuttle-routes/). Used to be advertised in local newspapers until they died.

I agree, the NEx route was not well advertised, timetables were distributed reluctantly as, apparently, Stagecoach were given very few (makes sense). Fares were reasonable. In fact, I reckon its cancellation was given more publicity than its introduction.

The problem with operating a West Kent to Gatwick service (something like Medway - Maidstone - ?Tonbridge? - Sevenoaks could utilise main roads) is that one obvious operator is Kings Ferry, who operated the failed NEx service, I believe. Once bitten!

James H · 23 Apr 2018

Interestingly a new Green Line route - the 703 - is going to be introduced by Reading Buses next month:
http://www.reading-buses.co.uk/articles/exciting-changes-to-green-line/

Green Line 702 - Windsor to London only
new route 703 for Bracknell, North Ascot and Heathrow

A0wen · 23 Apr 2018

Statto said:
Traffic conditions haven't helped with reliability, coupled with in the 80s coaches being replaced by dual purpose Leyland Nationals on some routes, then D-Reg with the splitting of London Country, with improvement on the railway network, main reasons why the Greenline network has been reduced.

I think your sequencing is wrong - the DP Nationals came in the 70s, by the early 80s they'd been folded into the bus fleet as firstly Reliances then Tigers came on the scene.

Apart from the odd occasion of vehicle shortages, I'm not aware of Nationals being the wholesale replacement of coaches. If anything some bus routes saw Tigers doing regular turns of duty as they became surplus when Green Line contracted - the 366 was one I well remember seeing TPs in regular use on.

MedwayValiant · 23 Apr 2018

Typhoon said:
I agree, the NEx route was not well advertised, timetables were distributed reluctantly as, apparently, Stagecoach were given very few (makes sense). Fares were reasonable. In fact, I reckon its cancellation was given more publicity than its introduction.

And still is! The 145 stop at Chatham Bus Station still has a poster advising that the service has been withdrawn, even though that stop no longer carries timetables for the service that actually stops there! The only other long distance services currently using Chatham Bus Station are for Romania and Slovakia; I've never seen timetables, but Romania seems to be on Thursdays and Slovakia on Saturdays.

The problem with operating a West Kent to Gatwick service (something like Medway - Maidstone - ?Tonbridge? - Sevenoaks could utilise main roads) is that one obvious operator is Kings Ferry, who operated the failed NEx service, I believe. Once bitten!

I think a service along those lines has been withdrawn three times in the last twenty years. I'm not sure who the first operator was, but iirc the service started in Canterbury, picked up at Sittingbourne, Chatham, and Gravesend, and then ran fast to Gatwick. The second version was run by Kings Ferry on its own account, but they made the mistake of serving Hempstead Valley and not Chatham town centre, and the service only lasted a few months. Then came the National Express service already mentioned.

MotCO · 23 Apr 2018

MedwayValiant said:
.

I think a service along those lines has been withdrawn three times in the last twenty years. I'm not sure who the first operator was, but iirc the service started in Canterbury, picked up at Sittingbourne, Chatham, and Gravesend, and then ran fast to Gatwick. The second version was run by Kings Ferry on its own account, but they made the mistake of serving Hempstead Valley and not Chatham town centre, and the service only lasted a few months. Then came the National Express service already mentioned.

I think the service from Medway to Gatwick was run by OFJ Connections- don't know if it was operated on behalf of someone else. It only seemed to carry fresh air when I saw it, but I don't think it was very regular.

Typhoon · 23 Apr 2018

MedwayValiant said:
And still is! The 145 stop at Chatham Bus Station still has a poster advising that the service has been withdrawn, even though that stop no longer carries timetables for the service that actually stops there!

That's impressive! The service finished on 17th July 2016. The notice in Birchington lasted longer than the service ran but I don't know whether it is still there.

MedwayValiant said:
Then came the National Express service already mentioned.

Service 270.

NorthKent1989 · 24 Apr 2018

Busaholic said:
Prior to the 269's extension from Sidcup to Bromley in 1985, there was no direct bus route between those two places, the 725 having performed the task since the early 1950s until its (and the later 726's) withdrawal. I can remember standing in Bromley Market Square in the morning rush hour waiting for a 227 to my work at Beckenham Library and, more than once, seeing as many as three 725s go by Croydon bound, with only one going beyond there. There were regular scheduled journeys in the peaks then to West Croydon from the Dartford direction, plus reliefs, and these were near enough full: this was 1967/8.

If congestion wasn't such an issue a
Dartford to Croydon link could have potential, orbital bus links are needed in London, its amazing that a city (more accurately metropolis) the size of London has just 3 TfL operated express routes:
The already mentioned X26 and the X68 and 607, the former being a proper express link, the X68 is highly unusual since it parallels the Thameslink essentially, where as the 607 is there because there are no rail or tube links paralleling the Uxbridge Road.

alex397 said:
I certainly think that idea has potential. Kent and the tip of South East London has no direct transport to any airport (except maybe Luton via Thameslink), so I can see the appeal. I am surprised there is no direct link to any of the London airports. For example, from east Kent, it takes about 2 hours to reach any airport - its also expensive and quite a hassle, especially as most journeys are via central London. I've found Gatwick particularly unreliable to get to by train (*cough* Southern *cough*).

There have been attempts to link Kent with Gatwick. The most recent attempt was just a few years ago with National Express operating a route from Thanet, Canterbury, Medway Towns and Maidstone to Gatwick Airport. Sadly that didn't last long, but I don't think it was publicized enough.

If a Greenline style service was started to link areas of Kent/SE London to Gatwick (not neccessarily as far as east Kent, but some of the towns of west Kent), I think it would have to be fairly frequent (hourly?), and run very early and very late, to become a reliable and useful link. Which means it would be expensive to operate, particularly when first starting up the route.

In lieu of there being no direct rail links between North & West Kent and South East London to Gatwick Airport, then a Greenline bus would work on this corridor,
At the moment people who don't have a car either have to rely on taxi or a lengthy train journey with one or more interchanges, ironically Kent & SE London has or will very soon have a direct rail link to Heathrow and Luton, both of which are completely the other side of London.

Could Green Line expand?

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