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Carnet

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Dawn Adams

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I was asked to produce my ticket by the train inspector, i had previously shown ticket to the guard at my station to get through the barrier with no issues. I produced my ticket and had my other Carnet tickets in my wallet. I had already written the date of travel on the ticket. The inspector looked very closely at my ticket And asked if I’d used the ticket before I had not and said so, she then asked to look at the unused tickets in my wallet which I showed her without hesitation. She then showed my ticket to the passenger sitting next to me and asked her if she could see a anything wrong with my ticket, I felt humiliated. When we arrived at kings x she got off the train with me and cautioned me and said she’d be keeping my tickets and submitting them as evidence. She said if I hadn’t put them through a ticket machine they’d be able to tell and return them to me in upto 6 weeks time. I hadn’t at any point used the tickets before or put them through the ticket machine. It’s taken 8 weeks to hear anything from them and today I got a letter of intended prosecution they do not state anything about evidence or that they can see if the tickets have been used just that I have to return a form stating my version of events. How do I know they haven’t tampered with the tickets I asked the inspector to point out to me what she could see but she didn’t. What rights do I have? How can I prove I’ve never used the tickets before?
 
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Adlington

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She [the inspector] then showed my ticket to the passenger sitting next to me and asked her if she could see a anything wrong with my ticket
That's not really relevant to the (alleged) fraud, but is it a standard procedure to ask another passenger for an opinion on the ticket validity???
 

DaveNewcastle

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. . . . today I got a letter of intended prosecution they do not state anything about evidence or that they can see if the tickets have been used just that I have to return a form stating my version of events. . . .
. . . What rights do I have? How can I prove I’ve never used the tickets before?
The 'rights' you have are those of anyone suspected of a Criminal Offence - the automatic right of being innocent until proven guilty - that proof of guilt must be to the standard of 'beyond all reasonable doubt' - the right to have the accusation tested in a Court by cross-examination of the witness presenting that Evidence against you - to be represented in Court by a legal professional - to have the Prosecution's Evidence against you 'put to proof' - and, if you fail to establish your innocence, your right to Appeal.
How do I know they haven’t tampered with the tickets
Well if you really had any reason to believe that was true, then you could have your own forensic analyst examine them and provide Evidence as an expert witness; nut it beggars belief that any Train Operating Company would have the inclination, time or justification to fabricate evidence - surely it is clear to you that there are thousands of passengers travelling without having paid their to investigate, without having to add the perverse concept of inventing / fabricating more of them? That really isn't a line of thought worth your concern!
. . . . . they may decide to prosecute you regardless of the quality of their evidence and hope that you plead guilty or, if you don't, that the magistrates believe their evidence more than your defence.
I really cannot see any Company bothering to put weight on a "hope" that a suspect will plead Guilty!
They will apply the Full Code Test, in which the basic first test must be to confirm that the Evidence, in itself, is likely to be persuasive of Guilt to the standard of 'beyond reasonable doubt' and then if it does, and only then, the 'public interest test'. Most railway fare evasion incidents are likely to pass the 'public interest test'.
It would be worth speaking to a criminal prosecution (ideally a railway prosecution) solicitor if you find yourself in this situation.
No. NO. NO!
Save yourself 4 grand. It would be a pointless waste. Just speak to any local law firm who deals with everyday Criminal Defence work. DO NOT SEEK OUT A CRIMINAL PROSECUTOR. AND DO NOT GO HUNTING FOR ONE OF THE TINY NUMBER OF SPECIALIST RAILWAY PROSECUTORS. That would be a very expensive and pointless use of your resources and I can't imagine why anyone on here would give advice like that to someone in your position which would put you in such a disadvantage. That sort of 'advice' simply shows this forum to be an unreliable source of personal opinion.
That's not really relevant to the (alleged) fraud, but is it a standard procedure to ask another passenger for an opinion on the ticket validity???
It is not. But it can be helpful to, either, have another witness if a statement is made which might require corroboration, or more likely, if it considered at the time that a confrontational incident might be defused and contained in a more reasonable and constructive discussion by introducing a third party perspective on the facts.
 
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falcon

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I was asked to produce my ticket by the train inspector, i had previously shown ticket to the guard at my station to get through the barrier with no issues. I produced my ticket and had my other Carnet tickets in my wallet. I had already written the date of travel on the ticket. The inspector looked very closely at my ticket And asked if I’d used the ticket before I had not and said so, she then asked to look at the unused tickets in my wallet which I showed her without hesitation. She then showed my ticket to the passenger sitting next to me and asked her if she could see a anything wrong with my ticket, I felt humiliated. When we arrived at kings x she got off the train with me and cautioned me and said she’d be keeping my tickets and submitting them as evidence. She said if I hadn’t put them through a ticket machine they’d be able to tell and return them to me in upto 6 weeks time. I hadn’t at any point used the tickets before or put them through the ticket machine. It’s taken 8 weeks to hear anything from them and today I got a letter of intended prosecution they do not state anything about evidence or that they can see if the tickets have been used just that I have to return a form stating my version of events. How do I know they haven’t tampered with the tickets I asked the inspector to point out to me what she could see but she didn’t. What rights do I have? How can I prove I’ve never used the tickets before?
You don't have to prove the tickets have been used before the TOC does.
 

falcon

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What did the person passenger next to you say when asked if she could see anything wrong with the tickets?
 

MikeWh

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I hope this is merely a matter of difference of opinion. If there was a prospect of any TOC prosecuting me (and having anything other than a case that would be instantly thrown out) then I would definitely be in touch with a solicitor. I don't know about others, but I have to keep a 100% clean criminal record to stay in my career path - and yes, that includes even non-recordable Byelaw convictions. I do not know what OP's career is, but there are a number where even a hint of any criminal history will simply see you passed over for the next of many other suitable candidates. It may not be entirely lawful, but it nonetheless happens.

I also don't think 4 grand is a very useful amount to quote in this case - yes, solicitors are very expensive, but they do not instantly cost 4 grand just to have an initial consultation. Many will offer a short initial session for free or for a small fee, during which time it may be possible to judge the appropriate path/conduct going forward - and whether or not there is any kind of realistic prospect of defending the matter. If it is necessary or desired to engage a solicitor for defence, then 4 figures would undoubtedly be a fair estimation of the cost, but it may nonetheless be seen as a worthwhile cost to keep one's criminal record clean.
A normal solicitor will not cost £4K but you specifically suggested a criminal prosecutor with railway expertise. I can assure you that those people do cost the earth.
 

MikeWh

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@Dawn Adams Carnet tickets introduce a whole new range of issues which can make their use problematic. It might help provide advice and options if you can answer the following questions:

1) Which TOC is involved, or which stations do you travel between?
2) On what date did you buy the book of 10 tickets?
3) On what date did you have the issue on the train?
4) How many blank tickets were left and were they all taken?
5) Did you have any trouble writing the date on the ticket you intended to use?
6) Did the other passenger make any comment when asked by the inspector?
 

najaB

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I hope this is merely a matter of difference of opinion. If there was a prospect of any TOC prosecuting me (and having anything other than a case that would be instantly thrown out) then I would definitely be in touch with a solicitor.
Which is exactly what @DaveNewcastle suggested - speak with a 'regular' solicitor. There is zero reason at this point to be seeking out a very expensive railway specialist as you suggested.
 

Adlington

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4) How many blank tickets were left and were they all taken?
Why should this matter? What counts is whether a single ticket from the carnet was properly validated (date written with a pen, whatever). There is no requirement to travel with the unused part of the carnet anyway.

And can the ticket inspector ask the passenger to show (and hand over) the remainder of the carnet?

Either the OP's report is inaccurate, or the ticket inspector was overofficious in this incident.
 

DaveNewcastle

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A normal solicitor will not cost £4K but you specifically suggested a criminal prosecutor with railway expertise. I can assure you that those people do cost the earth.
What really puts the standard of advice given on this forum in a bad light is the outrageous suggestion that it would help in the defence of the accused to instruct a Prosecutor instead of a Defence practitioner.

Yes, we've all spoken from both sides at some point or other (even if it does cause some chuckles from the Bench), and there is no bar against a Prosecutor representing a Defendant, but when it comes to seeking out that rare commodity of a practitioner with experience in Railway Fare Evasion, then it really is perverse to advise the Dawn Adams, the Defendant, to seek out a Prosecutor rather than a Defence.
Both are rare.
Both are expensive. [Actually, I've never heard of a living Railway Fare Evasion Prosecutor acting for a Defendant accused of evasion!]
Neither are helpful to poor Dawn Adams.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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What really puts the standard of advice given on this forum in a bad light is the outrageous suggestion that it would help in the defence of the accused to instruct a Prosecutor instead of a Defence practitioner.

Yes, we've all spoken from both sides at some point or other (even if it does cause some chuckles from the Bench), and there is no bar against a Prosecutor representing a Defendant, but when it comes to seeking out that rare commodity of a practitioner with experience in Railway Fare Evasion, then it really is perverse to advise the Dawn Adams, the Defendant, to seek out a Prosecutor rather than a Defence.
Both are rare.
Both are expensive. [Actually, I've never heard of a living Railway Fare Evasion Prosecutor acting for a Defendant accused of evasion!]
Neither are helpful to poor Dawn Adams.
Had I not edit-removed my post such as to avoid the endless resultant antagonising then you would realise that I had not suggested contacting a railway prosecutor. I had suggested contacting a solicitor with some experience of defending railway prosecutions, and I would live by this suggestion if a prosecution were instigated against me. I don't see the necessity of ad hominem remarks.
 

K.o.R

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Apologies if I'm being dense but... what exactly did OP do wrong? Was the date wrong on the ticket? It's not apparent what the actual issue was that the ticket inspector had.
 

najaB

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It's not apparent what the actual issue was that the ticket inspector had.
It would appear that the inspector believed that the date had been overwritten / modified to allow a ticket to be used more than once e.g. changing a 1 to a 7 then a 9 or a 5 to an 8..
 

Clip

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Had I not edit-removed my post such as to avoid the endless resultant antagonising then you would realise that I had not suggested contacting a railway prosecutor. I had suggested contacting a solicitor with some experience of defending railway prosecutions, and I would live by this suggestion if a prosecution were instigated against me. I don't see the necessity of ad hominem remarks.

I think you pretty much did
ForTheLoveOf said:
It would be worth speaking to a criminal prosecution (ideally a railway prosecution) solicitor if you find yourself in this situation.

I think for clarity that even if you do get something so very wrong you dont edit out your posts when you get something wrong - its better to admit the mistake and move on and leave it for context and not make a thread untidy.

DaveNewcastle isnt antagonising you he is correcting you because you seem to post what you think is right when a lot of the times it is not. He is one of a few on here with the real life court time experience to be able to correct people when they make mistakes - wanting to be a consumer champion is one thing but offering incorrect advice is another and one should learn from that and not try to hide it by deleting posts.
 
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