Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

swt_passenger · 1 May 2018

philwimbledon said:
Can anyone give me clarity on the Wimbledon loop peak frequency post the may changes. The station by station list of changes indicates additional peak services to Blackfriars operated by Southern - but I can't see them in the timetables anywhere...!

Welcome to the forums.

This is proving difficult to pin down, but at a quick glance it looks as if there is a peak only SN London Bridge to London Bridge loop service being operated via Wimbledon and Sutton. It has different headcodes either side of Sutton but timings suggest it is the same train. The consultations originally showed this running from London Bridge to Blackfriars via Wimbledon and Sutton, my guess is that there is no platform capacity at Blackfriars until the full 24 tph runs through the Thameslink core section. So there will be delay in diverting to Blackfriars until a few TL terminators are removed to make room.

This RTT link shows the SN trains at Wimbledon, 5 in the morning towards Sutton, and 4 in the afternoon from Sutton.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...2/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=SN

I’m wondering if they’ll eventually all run in the London Bridge to Blackfriars direction in the morning, and do Blackfriars to London Bridge in the afternoon? Other interpretations are welcome.

RailUK Forums

387star · 1 May 2018

swt_passenger said:
Realtime trains suggests not. There are some regular “TL” services, but to/from Epsom so probably given the wrong operator in error.

yeah I can't see any either but sure someone said there would still be some

presumably the additional Littlehampton to Bedford services to be added in December are currently pathed as southern services but perhaps from Victoria... The 1810 from London Bridge to Littlehampton certainly no longer exists come May change but I can't see any other direct services

though times change the two up two down tl services to Littlehampton do get extended to and from Bedford in may

Also in December there are additional Cambridge to Brighton services which don't presumably exist in any form till then

jon0844 · 1 May 2018

bramling said:
As we've concluded before, with the new timetable keeping the Cambridge-KX stopping service on the slow lines, under normal circumstances it will never be worth waiting for this service simply to get to London quicker.

On Sunday, the timings seem unchanged for the hourly services. The Moorgate services (all days) are all over the place though, clearly being fitted in wherever they can. You have four trains per hour, but a gap of 7 or 8 minutes here, 20-odd minutes there.

mongoose · 1 May 2018

jon0844 said:
On Sunday, the timings seem unchanged for the hourly services. The Moorgate services (all days) are all over the place though, clearly being fitted in wherever they can. You have four trains per hour, but a gap of 7 or 8 minutes here, 20-odd minutes there.

I would have thought that getting regular timings on a Sunday would be quite straightforward. Maybe I am wrong.

jon0844 · 1 May 2018

mongoose said:
I would have thought that getting regular timings on a Sunday would be quite straightforward. Maybe I am wrong.

Try this (WGC to MOG):

0928, 0933, 0956, 1003, 1026, 1033, 1056, 1103 and then it's consistent.

Clearly it is for operational reasons but with relatively little movement on Sunday it is a little odd. I suppose it's down to Moorgate and how the Hertford trains are working.

People will get used to it but it's a shame the services are bunched up.

TheDavibob · 1 May 2018

Are there long-term plans for comprehensive GN Sunday improvements (further out)? It's a remarkably disappointing service at present (compared to the Saturday one), though at least the trains are generally on time.

bramling · 2 May 2018

jon0844 said:
On Sunday, the timings seem unchanged for the hourly services. The Moorgate services (all days) are all over the place though, clearly being fitted in wherever they can. You have four trains per hour, but a gap of 7 or 8 minutes here, 20-odd minutes there.

I've had another look through the info that is available for Sundays. *As far as I can deduce*, it looks like this:

UP:
2P21 - looks to be 2x387 as diagram later goes to Kings Lynn
2C25 - again looks to be 2x387 for same reason
2C29 - this must be 1x387, as it later goes to Kings Lynn, but earlier in the diagram splits off something else in KX platform 9
2R31 - presumably a RLU
2C33 - could be anything!
2R35 onwards through to 2C81 - presumably all RLUs except 2R39 which is presumably 2x387 (although this is a question mark as the timetable isn't fully clear how 2x387s would get to Letchworth carriage sidings to make this up, but the diagram later goes to Kings Lynn so presumably must be 2x387)
2C85 - 1x387
2T67 - 1x387

DOWN:
2C04 - could be anything!
2C08 through to 2C52 - presumably all RLUs
2C56 - 1x387
2C60 - RLU
2C64 - RLU
2C72 - RLU
2P74 - 1x387
2P78 - 1x387

We'll see how right this turns out to be. A couple of the diagrams appear to start and finish at Letchworth sidings, so could in theory turn out 1x365!

So it *appears* Sundays offer a small respite from 700s for those able to be flexible with their travel times, although no respite from ironing board seats!

There's also the on-paper possibility that one of the Peterborough-KX extras on Sundays could turn out 365s, as one diagram does Peterborough-KX-Hornsey-KX-Peterborough. The other two diagrams appear to be 387s.

SammyJ · 2 May 2018

Is the plan still to turn Stevenage trains at Watton-at-Stone?

out of curiosity - will trains just arrive and depart from the same platform at Watton-at-Stone until Hertford North?

TheDavibob · 2 May 2018

SammyJ said:
Is the plan still to turn Stevenage trains at Watton-at-Stone?

out of curiosity - will trains just arrive and depart from the same platform at Watton-at-Stone until Hertford North?

RTT (for this timetable change, anyway) has 1tph turning at Watton-at-Stone and the other 1tph continuing to Stevenage:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/WAS/2018/05/31/1509?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

The Watton terminators leave and sit at the Stevenage junction for a while before heading back, so swap platforms. There's oodles of time for them to reach Stevenage if there was a platform for them.

gingerheid · 3 May 2018

Printed summary timetables available at Cambridge North today.

Almost had a heart attack when I saw a 1 hour gap in the peak time to London, with the (increasingly busy) 0728 to London missing and no similarly timed peak time service to London. Glad that that appears to be a mistake...

I wonder how Joe Public will take to the idea that there are services from Cambridge to St Pancras Mondays to Saturdays but not Sundays, and trains from St Pancras on Saturdays only. Not sure how they've decided which ones to include, as all the Saturday departures from St P are also overtaken by later departures from KX.

jon0844 · 3 May 2018

gingerheid said:
Printed summary timetables available at Cambridge North today.

Almost had a heart attack when I saw a 1 hour gap in the peak time to London, with the (increasingly busy) 0728 to London missing and no similarly timed peak time service to London. Glad that that appears to be a mistake...

I wonder how Joe Public will take to the idea that there are services from Cambridge to St Pancras Mondays to Saturdays but not Sundays, and trains from St Pancras on Saturdays only. Not sure how they've decided which ones to include, as all the Saturday departures from St P are also overtaken by later departures from KX.

Staff now have 'cheat sheets' showing times for each stopping pattern, but I am yet to see how they're going to convey this information. Is anything happening about the idea to show at St Pancras what trains are going from King's Cross and vice versa?

BigVern · 3 May 2018

Is there a map that includes the new routes, like an updated version of http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/London_South_East_1217.pdf?

Fred26 · 3 May 2018

jon0844 said:
Staff now have 'cheat sheets' showing times for each stopping pattern, but I am yet to see how they're going to convey this information. Is anything happening about the idea to show at St Pancras what trains are going from King's Cross and vice versa?

Do they? Which staff are these?

mmh · 4 May 2018

This is a really nice tool for visualising the changes in the new timetables - you enter in a pair of stations and select a time of day and it generates easy to compare charts of the current and new services: https://changes.chriszetter.com/

(It knows to include St Pancras in the new timetable for routes to/from King's Cross)

jon0844 · 4 May 2018

Fred26 said:
Do they? Which staff are these?

Here's a scan. Just realised it's only King's Cross though, so not what I thought.

Fred26 · 4 May 2018

Thanks for sharing. Would be nice if they produced that for staff across the route, rather than staff having to create their own.

jon0844 · 4 May 2018

Fred26 said:
Thanks for sharing. Would be nice if they produced that for staff across the route, rather than staff having to create their own.

This was created by the team that were doing a timetable roadshow. But, yes, it would be nice for all other stations too.

stut · 8 May 2018

Sorry if this has been pointed out before...

I notice a gap in the evening peak for the London-PBO semi-fasts. Taking STP as the departure point, there is a 1546, then a 1646. Taking KGX as the departure point, the evening fasts start at 1636.

Why is this significant? Well, evening peak starts at 1630. So off-peak ticket holders have to get the 1546, or they're stuck.

(It's also a pain for me, as that hour gap from Hitchin to Biggleswade is when I often travel... I appreciate that's a relatively minor impact.)

I notice, even for HIT and the like, it's the last semi-fast. There's a stopper at 1621, but then it's 1631.

Ouch.

Ianno87 · 8 May 2018

There is a 1616 from St. Pancras... (http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/W64320/2018-06-12). Although it seems to be missing for the first week of the timetable.

stut · 8 May 2018

Ianno87 said:
There is a 1616 from St. Pancras... (http://www.opentraintimes.com/schedule/W64320/2018-06-12). Although it seems to be missing for the first week of the timetable.

Thanks. I was looking at the 21st (on the back of the comparison tool linked to above), which would explain it. Phew! Assume this is part of the gradual approach they've been mentioning? I'd thought it would be over a longer time, though.

swt_passenger · 8 May 2018

stut said:
Thanks. I was looking at the 21st (on the back of the comparison tool linked to above), which would explain it. Phew! Assume this is part of the gradual approach they've been mentioning? I'd thought it would be over a longer time, though.

The online timetables suggest a 4 week time period for the gradual changes towards the full May 2018 timetable. So some missing trains are for only 1 or 2 weeks within that.
Page 6 of this shows the 1616 from St Pancras you are discussing above has two missing weeks, for example:
https://www.railplan2020.com/-/medi...imetables/intro_peterborough_london.pdf?la=en

jon0844 · 8 May 2018

Quite sad to see so many 4 car trains on Sunday, given the fact they're still only hourly for most of the day. Quite a few 3 car 313s too.

Why can't they realise that Sunday is a very busy day and doesn't deserve a cut back service. Even if they argued the frequency was due to driver availability, why the short forming?

philjo · 8 May 2018

The printed GN May timetable only shows an hourly Cambridge to Kings Cross stopper on Sundays plus some extras that start from Letchworth in the mornings and a few northbound ones that terminate at Letchworth in the late afternoons to give a half hourly service at those times. It does not show any semi- fast services after 0730 until 2230.
However if I look on RTT it does also show an hourly semi-fast Cambridge to Gatwick service, that runs southbound on GN at the same times as the current semi-fast from Cambridge (though the northbound one uses a different path). These services also call at Norwood Junction on sundays

So the printed timetable is already incorrect.

SprinterMan · 8 May 2018

bramling said:
I've had another look through the info that is available for Sundays. *As far as I can deduce*, it looks like this:

UP:
2P21 - looks to be 2x387 as diagram later goes to Kings Lynn
2C25 - again looks to be 2x387 for same reason
2C29 - this must be 1x387, as it later goes to Kings Lynn, but earlier in the diagram splits off something else in KX platform 9
2R31 - presumably a RLU
2C33 - could be anything!
2R35 onwards through to 2C81 - presumably all RLUs except 2R39 which is presumably 2x387 (although this is a question mark as the timetable isn't fully clear how 2x387s would get to Letchworth carriage sidings to make this up, but the diagram later goes to Kings Lynn so presumably must be 2x387)
2C85 - 1x387
2T67 - 1x387

DOWN:
2C04 - could be anything!
2C08 through to 2C52 - presumably all RLUs
2C56 - 1x387
2C60 - RLU
2C64 - RLU
2C72 - RLU
2P74 - 1x387
2P78 - 1x387

We'll see how right this turns out to be. A couple of the diagrams appear to start and finish at Letchworth sidings, so could in theory turn out 1x365!

So it *appears* Sundays offer a small respite from 700s for those able to be flexible with their travel times, although no respite from ironing board seats!

There's also the on-paper possibility that one of the Peterborough-KX extras on Sundays could turn out 365s, as one diagram does Peterborough-KX-Hornsey-KX-Peterborough. The other two diagrams appear to be 387s.

This is a fantastic piece of analysis. For the most part, it is entirely correct. I have a couple of updates for it:

Stoppers-
UP:
2P21 - 2x387
2C25 - 1x387
2C29 - 1x387
2R31 - RLU
2C33 - RLU
2R35 - RLU
2C37 - RLU
2R39 - 2x387
2C41 to 2C77 - RLUs
2C81 - 2x387
2C85 - 1x387
2T67 - 1x387

DOWN:
2C04 to 2C40 - RLUs
2R42 - 1x387
2C44 - RLU
2R46 - RLU
2C48 - RLU
2R50 - RLU
2C52 - 2x387
2C56 - 1x387
2C60 - RLU
2C64 - RLU
2C68 - 2x387
2C72 - RLU
2C74 - 1x387
2P74 - 1x387
2F96 - 1x387
2P78 - 1x387

PBO Fasts-
UP:
1P17 - 2x387
1P21 - 2x365/387? - (Empties to HRN)
1P25 - 2x387

DOWN:
1P10 - 2x387
1P46 - 2x287
1P50 - 2x365/387? - (Empties from PBO)
1P54 - 2x365/387? - (Empties from HRN)

Adam

Failed Unit · 8 May 2018

SprinterMan said:
This is a fantastic piece of analysis. For the most part, it is entirely correct. I have a couple of updates for it:

Stoppers-
UP:
2P21 - 2x387
2C25 - 1x387
2C29 - 1x387
2R31 - RLU
2C33 - RLU
2R35 - RLU
2C37 - RLU
2R39 - 2x387
2C41 to 2C77 - RLUs
2C81 - 2x387
2C85 - 1x387
2T67 - 1x387

DOWN:
2C04 to 2C40 - RLUs
2R42 - 1x387
2C44 - RLU
2R46 - RLU
2C48 - RLU
2R50 - RLU
2C52 - 2x387
2C56 - 1x387
2C60 - RLU
2C64 - RLU
2C68 - 2x387
2C72 - RLU
2C74 - 1x387
2P74 - 1x387
2F96 - 1x387
2P78 - 1x387

PBO Fasts-
UP:
1P17 - 2x387
1P21 - 2x365/387? - (Empties to HRN)
1P25 - 2x387

DOWN:
1P10 - 2x387
1P46 - 2x287
1P50 - 2x365/387? - (Empties from PBO)
1P54 - 2x365/387? - (Empties from HRN)

Adam

Shame most of this post means nothing to most people. Why do people on this site insist on only using codes? It is a pain in the rear to then have to go to another website and translate. A departure time and starting point is so much more useful than traveling through realtrain times trying to figure it all out.

bramling · 8 May 2018

Failed Unit said:
Shame most of this post means nothing to most people. Why do people on this site insist on only using codes? It is a pain in the rear to then have to go to another website and translate. A departure time and starting point is so much more useful than traveling through realtrain times trying to figure it all out.

In my case I’m afraid the answer is simply time. There are occasions when it will be either that or nothing unfortunately, although I understand it’s a bit of a pain.

Failed Unit · 8 May 2018

bramling said:
In my case I’m afraid the answer is simply time. There are occasions when it will be either that or nothing unfortunately, although I understand it’s a bit of a pain.

Thanks - yes they are often in lists an I remember a while back it took a long time to convert the headcodes to a meaningful list on the class 700 thread.

Must admit the most annoying is the single train where the poster is on it. Never understand why someone would post I was on xYXz service rather than the 1200 Doncaster - Cleethorpes.

muddythefish · 9 May 2018

Just had a quick look at the service from Huntingdon in the new timetable and it would appear that Hunts has lost its regular 2 trains an hour off-peak service with some hourly gaps during the day.

Or have I mis-read it ?

greatkingrat · 9 May 2018

What date are you looking at? There are a few trains cancelled in the first couple of weeks of the new timetable as part of the transition plan, it is likely they are the cause of the gaps you are seeing. Once the new timetable is fully in operation, there will be 2tph Thameslink from Huntingdon, plus peak extras into Kings Cross.

muddythefish · 9 May 2018

greatkingrat said:
What date are you looking at? There are a few trains cancelled in the first couple of weeks of the new timetable as part of the transition plan, it is likely they are the cause of the gaps you are seeing. Once the new timetable is fully in operation, there will be 2tph Thameslink from Huntingdon, plus peak extras into Kings Cross.

I was looking at May 24.

Great Northern and Thameslink May 18 service changes

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