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Campaign to restore passenger services on the Middlewich Link Line

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B&I

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It is absolutely painful how long it takes to achieve even the most basic improvements to railway services in this country
 
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The_Engineer

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The campaign group seems to think all that's needed to provide the service are two shelters (presumably for Middlewich) and one train !!! I would hope the majority realise the scale of works and rolling stock provision required, and that it's a frivolous rather than "informed" comment... :)

https://twitter.com/MidCheshireRail

I am a big supporter of this reopening, as I was "brung up" in Northwich. I have always thought it was an unused potential, more so since other reopenings. Although I am told I saw the Crewe trains at Northwich, I was too little to remember them I am afraid.
 

HSTEd

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You could always close the northern portion of the Midcheshire Line to heavy rail, maintain the ICI branches through Chester and extend Metrolink to Middlewich.....
 

Chester1

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The campaign group seems to think all that's needed to provide the service are two shelters (presumably for Middlewich) and one train !!! I would hope the majority realise the scale of works and rolling stock provision required, and that it's a frivolous rather than "informed" comment... :)

https://twitter.com/MidCheshireRail

I am a big supporter of this reopening, as I was "brung up" in Northwich. I have always thought it was an unused potential, more so since other reopenings. Although I am told I saw the Crewe trains at Northwich, I was too little to remember them I am afraid.

Its one of those projects that is definately viable but is tricky in the context of the wider area. DMUs are in very short supply, there is a lack of capacity from Stockport to Manchester and into Crewe Station. On the plus side it seems very unlikely that the line will close as a freight or diversionary route for the forseeable future.
 

pemma

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The campaign group seems to think all that's needed to provide the service are two shelters (presumably for Middlewich) and one train !!! I would hope the majority realise the scale of works and rolling stock provision required, and that it's a frivolous rather than "informed" comment... :)

https://twitter.com/MidCheshireRail

I am a big supporter of this reopening, as I was "brung up" in Northwich. I have always thought it was an unused potential, more so since other reopenings. Although I am told I saw the Crewe trains at Northwich, I was too little to remember them I am afraid.

This is the timetable that was once proposed

full


It would need 1 additional unit but over the course of the day at least 3 different units would travel along the line and the same units would run services between Northwich and Stockport/Manchester meaning an additional single 153 would not be an option. (Their numbering presumes the units for the morning peak extras are the same as the afternoon peak extras which they are not.)

The feasibility report (which is now out-dated) gave a figure of £370,000 as being needed to reinstate a station at Middlewich and £120,000 as being needed to reinstate platform 3 at Northwich, as well as £50,000 to bring the line speed up to 50mph. Even at Network Rail's pricing almost £0.5m buys a lot more than a couple of shelters.
 

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You could always close the northern portion of the Midcheshire Line to heavy rail, maintain the ICI branches through Chester and extend Metrolink to Middlewich.....
TfGM already explored extending it to Northwich. They scrapped it because they thought that heavy rail is the best option. TfGM won't provide funding to an out of area project unless they are guaranteed to get their money back.
 
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The campaign group seems to think all that's needed to provide the service are two shelters (presumably for Middlewich) and one train !!! I would hope the majority realise the scale of works and rolling stock provision required, and that it's a frivolous rather than "informed" comment... :).

I think the point of that tweet is that it's a farce if HS2 can be built all the way to Crewe and in that time 2 small stations can't be put on an existing line (Gadbrook Park and Middlewich) and that line's passenger service reinstated. I don't think it's acceptable to allow a project with a BCR of at least 5:1 to wait 15 years when there's no political objection to it and no insurmountable problem to prevent it happening very quickly. The 2009 RDG (or were they called ATOC then) report said up to 3.5 years to implementation for projects like this.
 

furnessvale

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You could always close the northern portion of the Midcheshire Line to heavy rail, maintain the ICI branches through Chester and extend Metrolink to Middlewich.....
I presume you mean removing all freight between Northwich and Altrincham.

If so there is a lot more freight on that line than just the ICI trains, including biomass, Manchester waste, stone en route to London, cars from Avonmouth, coal from the north east to Fiddlers Ferry etc.

The line is at least as valuable as a freight route as it is for passengers.
 
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TfGM won't provide funding to an out of area project unless they are guaranteed to get their money back.


The same TfGM desperate to reduce congestion in to central Manchester along the southern roads in - along which the commuters of Middlewich and surrounds drive.
 
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You could always close the northern portion of the Midcheshire Line to heavy rail, maintain the ICI branches through Chester and extend Metrolink to Middlewich.....

How would Altrincham, Knutsford, Northwich and Middlewichers get to Crewe though? The simple fix is to find three trains, build the two tiny stations and reinstate the services.
 

pemma

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You could always close the northern portion of the Midcheshire Line to heavy rail, maintain the ICI branches through Chester and extend Metrolink to Middlewich.....

TfGM already explored extending it to Northwich. They scrapped it because they thought that heavy rail is the best option. TfGM won't provide funding to an out of area project unless they are guaranteed to get their money back.

I presume you mean removing all freight between Northwich and Altrincham.

If so there is a lot more freight on that line than just the ICI trains, including biomass, Manchester waste, stone en route to London, cars from Avonmouth, coal from the north east to Fiddlers Ferry etc.

The line is at least as valuable as a freight route as it is for passengers.

Not long ago Tata Chemicals closed the Winnington plant (between Northwich and Greenbank) and increased work at the Lostock Gralam plant, this resulted in a slight decrease in the number of limestone trains but overall the number of freight trains has increased significantly, partly due to increased passenger traffic on Chat Moss and through Victoria meaning freight needs to find an alternative way around. Also it needs to be noted Sandbach-Middlewich-Northwich-Chester is a diversionary route for Virgin Trains service between Holyhead and London and the entire route from Chester-Altrincham-Stockport-Manchester is a diversionary route for North Wales to Manchester services with an overnight service between Chester and Manchester Airport booked to go via Northwich so that ATW crews retain route knowledge.

For all those reasons full light rail conversion beyond Altrincham has always been out of the question. TfGM once looked at the cost:benefit of running tram-trains to Greenbank and more recently Rail North looked at the cost:benefit of electrifying the Mid-Cheshire route, the former had a poor cost:benefit ratio but the latter had an excellent cost:benefit ratio, even better than many of the routes which would have seemed more obvious choices for electrification. One of the reasons for the excellent cost:benefit ratio of heavy rail electrification is the volume of heavy freight using the line, the other main reason being poor journey times to Manchester compared to journey times by road.
 

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The same TfGM desperate to reduce congestion in to central Manchester along the southern roads in - along which the commuters of Middlewich and surrounds drive.

Yeah, but realistically, re-opening the line through Middlewich is going to have a negligeable impact on that congestion. The congestion is going to be from people coming from a huge variety of destinations both inside and outside Greater Manchester, with a very small proportion of those journeys originating from Middlewich. At the most optimistic, opening the line might cause a few hundred car commuters into Manchester to swap to the train each morning. That will make next to no noticeable difference to any road in Manchester.

That's not to say re-opening the Middlewich line isn't a good idea: I'm sure it would be a very beneficial thing to do. But the benefits of opening it will go to Middlewich and the surrounding area, not really to Manchester. So it's not really unreasonable for TfGM not to be particularly interested in funding it.
 
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Yeah, but realistically, re-opening the line through Middlewich is going to have a negligeable impact on that congestion. The congestion is going to be from people coming from a huge variety of destinations both inside and outside Greater Manchester, with a very small proportion of those journeys originating from Middlewich. At the most optimistic, opening the line might cause a few hundred car commuters into Manchester to swap to the train each morning. That will make next to no noticeable difference to any road in Manchester.

That's not to say re-opening the Middlewich line isn't a good idea: I'm sure it would be a very beneficial thing to do. But the benefits of opening it will go to Middlewich and the surrounding area, not really to Manchester. So it's not really unreasonable for TfGM not to be particularly interested in funding it.

Hi, the figures will be higher than hundreds but I accept not everyone on the M56/Princess Parkway lives in Middlewich. Middlewich's population is 14,000. 70% of the population work and 70% of those commute out (one of those two figures is 74% but I can't remember which). As there's no train and a rubbish bus service they're commuting by car. So that's almost 7,000 commuters and even if some go to Crewe, Chester, Liverpool, Warrington etc I'd bet there are a couple of thousand heading up the M56 each day. Add those from Winsford, who could get the train to Crewe or drive to Cuddington or Northwich for Manchester trains, but who probably also just drive, then the numbers are significant because 33,000 live in Winsford. Middlewichers go to Winsford for Liverpool trains and Winsfordians will likely come to Middlewich for Manchester trains.

If you add in Greater Manchester and take Trafford as another example then look at the Old Trafford match day traffic. Our trains would take people from this area and south up to Altrincham for buses/trams and could reduce road congestion in that area by giving another option than driving to OT.

TfL think in a joined up way about these things so hopefully TfGM/TfN will be doing too. Incremental gains can make big differences when combined and our project isn't particularly costly.
 

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Not long ago Tata Chemicals closed the Winnington plant (between Northwich and Greenbank) and increased work at the Lostock Gralam plant, this resulted in a slight decrease in the number of limestone trains but overall the number of freight trains has increased significantly, partly due to increased passenger traffic on Chat Moss and through Victoria meaning freight needs to find an alternative way around. Also it needs to be noted Sandbach-Middlewich-Northwich-Chester is a diversionary route for Virgin Trains service between Holyhead and London and the entire route from Chester-Altrincham-Stockport-Manchester is a diversionary route for North Wales to Manchester services with an overnight service between Chester and Manchester Airport booked to go via Northwich so that ATW crews retain route knowledge.

For all those reasons full light rail conversion beyond Altrincham has always been out of the question. TfGM once looked at the cost:benefit of running tram-trains to Greenbank and more recently Rail North looked at the cost:benefit of electrifying the Mid-Cheshire route, the former had a poor cost:benefit ratio but the latter had an excellent cost:benefit ratio, even better than many of the routes which would have seemed more obvious choices for electrification. One of the reasons for the excellent cost:benefit ratio of heavy rail electrification is the volume of heavy freight using the line, the other main reason being poor journey times to Manchester compared to journey times by road.

There is also a shortage of capacity between Stockport and Piccadilly which won't be resolved by the Ordsall Chord increasing terminating paths at Piccadilly. Combined with the Navigation Road single section the best service would be Altrincham-Crewe. It is possible to halve the length of single section but NR wouldn't want to pay for it and TfGM wouldn't because Metrolink doesn't need more than 10tph on the Altrincham line. At Stockport there is space next to platform 4 to build a mirror of platform 0 and use it for terminating mid Cheshire Line services but that would add to the cost of any Middlewich reopening.
 

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There is also a shortage of capacity between Stockport and Piccadilly which won't be resolved by the Ordsall Chord increasing terminating paths at Piccadilly. Combined with the Navigation Road single section the best service would be Altrincham-Crewe. It is possible to halve the length of single section but NR wouldn't want to pay for it and TfGM wouldn't because Metrolink doesn't need more than 10tph on the Altrincham line. At Stockport there is space next to platform 4 to build a mirror of platform 0 and use it for terminating mid Cheshire Line services but that would add to the cost of any Middlewich reopening.
I'd go with terminating at Northwich off-peak and Navigation Road peak. So during peak, 3tph.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Hi, the figures will be higher than hundreds but I accept not everyone on the M56/Princess Parkway lives in Middlewich. Middlewich's population is 14,000. 70% of the population work and 70% of those commute out (one of those two figures is 74% but I can't remember which). As there's no train and a rubbish bus service they're commuting by car. So that's almost 7,000 commuters and even if some go to Crewe, Chester, Liverpool, Warrington etc I'd bet there are a couple of thousand heading up the M56 each day. Add those from Winsford, who could get the train to Crewe or drive to Cuddington or Northwich for Manchester trains, but who probably also just drive, then the numbers are significant because 33,000 live in Winsford. Middlewichers go to Winsford for Liverpool trains and Winsfordians will likely come to Middlewich for Manchester trains.

If those figures are correct, then that seems reasonable. But the thing you have to factor in is that if the line opens, it's probably only going to cause a small proportion of those commuters to swap from car to train. Most won't swap because of inertia, or because their commuting destination isn't near any station on the Altrincham-Manchester line, or because they think they'd need to drive to Middlewich station anyway so they may as well just drive all the way, or because driving is cheaper, or because the trains aren't timed for when they need to get to work, and so on. I'd say that if you got 5% of commuters to swap to the railway that'd be a good result (and would still make the railway well worth re-opening). And oddly enoughly, 5% of 7000 is exactly the couple of hundred I estimated :)

Another way of looking at it is by train capacity. When it first opens, the most we could probably hope for is maybe 2 - may be an outside chance of 3 - trains leaving Middlewich for Manchester during morning commuting hours. Are you realistically going to get a few thousand people on those trains?
 

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There is also a shortage of capacity between Stockport and Piccadilly which won't be resolved by the Ordsall Chord increasing terminating paths at Piccadilly. Combined with the Navigation Road single section the best service would be Altrincham-Crewe. It is possible to halve the length of single section but NR wouldn't want to pay for it and TfGM wouldn't because Metrolink doesn't need more than 10tph on the Altrincham line. At Stockport there is space next to platform 4 to build a mirror of platform 0 and use it for terminating mid Cheshire Line services but that would add to the cost of any Middlewich reopening.

I would suspect that the single section between Altrincham and Navigation Road wouldn't be so much of an issue if you dealt with the section between Navigation Road and Stockport, which from the point of view of available land etc. should be much easier to sort out. That potentially is something that TfGM arguably ought to be looking at, because decent line speeds and a few extra stations along that bit of line could transform journey opportunities in that part of Manchester - especially if you had an interchange with the Airport Metrolink line. Do that, and even with the single track bit near Altrincham you probably ought to be able to comfortably timetable 4tph on it. And of course if that was sorted out, then extending some trains to Crewe via Middlewich could be feasible.

The only trouble is of course that that's all next to useless if you can't increase Stockport-Manchester capacity as well. What's the actual issue there? Is it all the conflicting moves at the Manchester end as trains try to reach their platforms, or is it something more general along the line? And how - in principle - could you go about fixing it?
 

furnessvale

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If those figures are correct, then that seems reasonable. But the thing you have to factor in is that if the line opens, it's probably only going to cause a small proportion of those commuters to swap from car to train. Most won't swap because of inertia, or because their commuting destination isn't near any station on the Altrincham-Manchester line, or because they think they'd need to drive to Middlewich station anyway so they may as well just drive all the way, or because driving is cheaper, or because the trains aren't timed for when they need to get to work, and so on. I'd say that if you got 5% of commuters to swap to the railway that'd be a good result (and would still make the railway well worth re-opening). And oddly enoughly, 5% of 7000 is exactly the couple of hundred I estimated :)
I believe 5% is the national percentage of passenger traffic captured by rail. This includes areas of passenger travel where there is absolutely no rail provision.

I would be surprised if a rail commuter service into one of our major cities was not able to better a national average gained under such circumstances.
 

B&I

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Assuming we remain stuck with Metrolink only on the Altrincham and South Junction line, the best solution would be building the airport western link (with the many wider benefits this would bring about), running all via Northwich services through it and into Manchester using the paths of current airport terminators where possible, and extending Metrolink using tram-trains to an interchange at Knutsford, and over the ex-CLC line from Timperley Junction to Stockport with some new stops on that stretch
 

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Assuming we remain stuck with Metrolink only on the Altrincham and South Junction line, the best solution would be building the airport western link (with the many wider benefits this would bring about), running all via Northwich services through it and into Manchester using the paths of current airport terminators where possible, and extending Metrolink using tram-trains to an interchange at Knutsford, and over the ex-CLC line from Timperley Junction to Stockport with some new stops on that stretch

I think @jcollins told us the reason why this can't and won't happen.

For all those reasons full light rail conversion beyond Altrincham has always been out of the question. TfGM once looked at the cost:benefit of running tram-trains to Greenbank and more recently Rail North looked at the cost:benefit of electrifying the Mid-Cheshire route, the former had a poor cost:benefit ratio but the latter had an excellent cost:benefit ratio, even better than many of the routes which would have seemed more obvious choices for electrification. One of the reasons for the excellent cost:benefit ratio of heavy rail electrification is the volume of heavy freight using the line, the other main reason being poor journey times to Manchester compared to journey times by road.
 

pemma

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Assuming we remain stuck with Metrolink only on the Altrincham and South Junction line, the best solution would be building the airport western link (with the many wider benefits this would bring about), running all via Northwich services through it and into Manchester using the paths of current airport terminators where possible, and extending Metrolink using tram-trains to an interchange at Knutsford, and over the ex-CLC line from Timperley Junction to Stockport with some new stops on that stretch

How would that affect the rubbish trains to/from Baguley? (I mean the freight trains carrying rubbish, not the Pacers. ;))
 

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I'd go with terminating at Northwich off-peak and Navigation Road peak. So during peak, 3tph.

It would have to be Altrincham not Navigation Road, there is no capacity to terminate trains on the single track section. The problem with terminating anywhere other than Manchester is that a large number of people will wait for the next service from Chester or Greenbank adding to overcrowding.

I would suspect that the single section between Altrincham and Navigation Road wouldn't be so much of an issue if you dealt with the section between Navigation Road and Stockport, which from the point of view of available land etc. should be much easier to sort out. That potentially is something that TfGM arguably ought to be looking at, because decent line speeds and a few extra stations along that bit of line could transform journey opportunities in that part of Manchester - especially if you had an interchange with the Airport Metrolink line. Do that, and even with the single track bit near Altrincham you probably ought to be able to comfortably timetable 4tph on it. And of course if that was sorted out, then extending some trains to Crewe via Middlewich could be feasible.

The only trouble is of course that that's all next to useless if you can't increase Stockport-Manchester capacity as well. What's the actual issue there? Is it all the conflicting moves at the Manchester end as trains try to reach their platforms, or is it something more general along the line? And how - in principle - could you go about fixing it?

The chord has allowed extra services by reducing conflicting moves at Piccadilly, including the Greenbank-Manchester service that was due to start this month until Northern delayed until December. The rest of the extra capacity has already been allocated too e.g. Hazel Grove. From north of Slade Lane Junction 4 tracks have all the Stockport and Airport services (I think 22tph). The planned additional services use up all remaining capacity. Reinstating double tracks near Cheadle would help but frankly the cheapest capacity solution on the line would be closing Navigation Road! I can't see it happening but not stopping on the single track section would reduce occupancy time and people could use Metrolink to travel to or from Navigation Road instead.

Assuming we remain stuck with Metrolink only on the Altrincham and South Junction line, the best solution would be building the airport western link (with the many wider benefits this would bring about), running all via Northwich services through it and into Manchester using the paths of current airport terminators where possible, and extending Metrolink using tram-trains to an interchange at Knutsford, and over the ex-CLC line from Timperley Junction to Stockport with some new stops on that stretch

I agree with that apart from Tram-Trains, TfGM looked into it prior to the Sheffield fiasco and the business case for the mid Cheshire line was low. A terminating platform at Knutsford and 2tph Knutsford to Manchester via Altrincham with new stops built would be fine and cost much less. Realistically Middlewich is waiting for that sort of project or HS2, its a low priority and despite having a good business case it makes 2 bottlenecks worse.
 

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How would that affect the rubbish trains to/from Baguley? (I mean the freight trains carrying rubbish, not the Pacers. ;))
Vriridor will just have to move I guess? (Also I can't tell the difference. I think the Pacers are FL 66's hauling wagons with viridor on the side and the rubbish trains are the buses on rails, right?)
 

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It would have to be Altrincham not Navigation Road, there is no capacity to terminate trains on the single track section. The problem with terminating anywhere other than Manchester is that a large number of people will wait for the next service from Chester or Greenbank adding to overcrowding.
I mean the driver and guard just change ends and leave again. If you want to get change service, get off at Altrincham and those going to Navigation Road stay on.
 

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I mean the driver and guard just change ends and leave again. If you want to get change service, get off at Altrincham and those going to Navigation Road stay on.

That still occupies the single track block for longer than absolutely neccessary and increases the knock on affects of any delays. That section has two solutions a) close Navigation Road Railway Station but keep Metrolink open or b) CPO the land next to and south of the station to have sufficient space for 4 tracks and 4 platforms, probably with either the Metrolink stop or Railway Station south of the level crossing. That would be quite expensive but combined with redoubling the section through Cheadle would add plenty of capacity. However, any new services would need to terminate at Stockport and that would require even more spending. Frankly until HS2 (or the western approach plan) happens the best solution is faster bus services.
 

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That still occupies the single track block for longer than absolutely neccessary and increases the knock on affects of any delays. That section has two solutions a) close Navigation Road Railway Station but keep Metrolink open or b) CPO the land next to and south of the station to have sufficient space for 4 tracks and 4 platforms, probably with either the Metrolink stop or Railway Station south of the level crossing. That would be quite expensive but combined with redoubling the section through Cheadle would add plenty of capacity. However, any new services would need to terminate at Stockport and that would require even more spending. Frankly until HS2 (or the western approach plan) happens the best solution is faster bus services.
Option B
 

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According to the Cheshire East local transport plan there are significant commuter flows to Knutsford from Wilmslow, Middlewich and Sandbach. The 88/88A bus provides a connection for the first
:lol: Are they forgetting that certain areas of Knutsford that use to see 4 buses an hour now only see 1 and that on a Saturday, if you want to get to Manchester, you have to use the bus because the train and bus times don't meet?
 
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