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Verbal instructions given by staff regarding ticketing matters

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Silverdale

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Moderators note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...tion-now-facing-threat-of-prosecution.164445/
It can be provided by the passenger saying “the person at the gateline/ticket office/platform/on twitter* said it was ok”. If that isn’t ideal due to it being open to abuse how is that the passengers problem?

Simply taking the passenger's word as to what he/she was told is so obviously open to abuse that should it come to a prosecution, without other evidence a court is unlikley to find that permission had been given to travel without a ticket.

Obtaining that evidence is the passenger's problem.
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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Simply taking the passenger's word as to what he/she was told is so obviously open to abuse that should it come to a prosecution,without other evidence a court is unlikley to find that permission had been given to travel without a ticket.

Obtaining that evidence is the passenger's problem.
And hence it is down to the believability of the passenger's account. In some circumstances, their testimony could be enough to clear their name. In other circumstances, they may require additional corroborating evidence, such as the witness testimony of the gate line attendant, or of CCTV.

The very least that CCTV would hopefully show would be that:

1) OP arrived at Brighton a far while before his train, so he didn't simply board without a ticket because he was running late.

2) He talked to the gateline staff and was let through manually.

Why would gateline staff let him through if they were not giving him permission? Why would OP arrive at Brighton station early, be trying to do something at the ticket machine, then pay for a ticket on his phone, and yet willingly not obtain the paid-for ticket? If GTR tried to claim that OP did not have permission, then that makes no sense in view of the CCTV, so the presence of CCTV might be of some (possibly considerable) assistance to OP.

Trainline data showing the exact time of purchase, in combination with the CCTV, could also show that OP bought his ticket whilst at the ticket machines at Brighton. Why would he choose to buy a ticket on his phone, that needed picking up, if he was standing right next to ticket machines that were able to sell him what he needed? Again, that lends itself credibility to OP's account of being unable to obtain the required ticket at the ticket machine.

As an aside, I don't think all Trainline-based systems still have a 2 hour delay. I have on a number of occasions recently picked up Trainline-based-system-bought tickets within a few minutes of buying. That's not to say the policy isn't still 2 hours, but it's not been my experience (and this is of a number of different interfaces/Trainline implementations and stations).
 

robbeech

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Simply taking the passenger's word as to what he/she was told is so obviously open to abuse that should it come to a prosecution, without other evidence a court is unlikley to find that permission had been given to travel without a ticket.

Obtaining that evidence is the passenger's problem.

But you’ve gone out of your way to suggest that a passenger is not guilty until proven innocent.

We have established that one can board a train without a ticket if you’re given permission by a member of authorised staff.
Authorised staff is not defined so it must be assumed that all members of staff are authorised.
Therefore the railway must prove this person did not have authority to travel in order to prove them guilty.

Nobody is denying the system is not open to abuse. I don’t think anything is saying the system is adequate or needs no changes, But why should this failing on behalf of part of the railway be the passengers problem?

And so we reach the start of the circle again.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Authorised staff is not defined
It is, but not very helpfully - other than the police, it's "a person acting in the course of his duties who is an employee or agent of an Operator, or any other person authorised by an Operator". Obviously there is no doubt they are an employee or agent of an Operator so the only question can be whether they are acting in the course of their duties.
 

Bletchleyite

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It is, but not very helpfully - other than the police, it's "a person acting in the course of his duties who is an employee or agent of an Operator, or any other person authorised by an Operator". Obviously there is no doubt they are an employee or agent of an Operator so the only question can be whether they are acting in the course of their duties.

I'd contend that given that the exact purpose of a gateline and its staff is not to let people through unless they have a valid ticket that this is probably a very clear part of their duties, and if they did not intend it to be construed in that way that they should not let someone through.
 

Starmill

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Simply taking the passenger's word as to what he/she was told is so obviously open to abuse that should it come to a prosecution, without other evidence a court is unlikley to find that permission had been given to travel without a ticket.

Obtaining that evidence is the passenger's problem.
What are you talking about? This is a method of working that the train operators have nominated for themselves. I've been given verbal permission to board a train myself many times.

If the train company wishes to then go back on that and decide to try to prosecute, there is nothing more I or anyone else could have done to stop that. It's purely a case of overzealous prosecution, something which is being increasingly reported on this forum.

If the system is, as you claim, open to abuse, then it is for the train companies to put a different one in place. Why does that concern you so much?
 

Silverdale

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What are you talking about? This is a method of working that the train operators have nominated for themselves. I've been given verbal permission to board a train myself many times.

If the train company wishes to then go back on that and decide to try to prosecute, there is nothing more I or anyone else could have done to stop that. It's purely a case of overzealous prosecution, something which is being increasingly reported on this forum.

If the system is, as you claim, open to abuse, then it is for the train companies to put a different one in place. Why does that concern you so much?

I don't dispute that this is the system that the TOCs have chosen for themselves. It enables them to ameliorate problems which they or other parts of the railway industry have caused, without the bureaucracy of issuing "authority to travel" permits. From the TOC's point of view it represents a quick and easy fix for many situations, but it can hardly be described as a "method of working" when there is no reliable way for the passenger to show that they have been given verbal permission should they later be asked to provide it.

In the majority of cases where a passenger explains that they have been given verbal permission to travel and why, their account rings true and is accepted. But what of the minority of cases, such as the OP's, where for one or other reason they are not believed?

You may characterize it as overzealous when a TOC is faced with a ticketless passenger and decides to prosecute, though in the OP's case, no such decision has been taken. The TOC would say that prima-facie, the Bylaw has been broken and they have every right to prosecute such cases if they believe that the passenger did not have permission to travel without a ticket.

So my concern is for this historically small, but as you say increasing, number of cases where passengers are not believed when travelling with only the verbal permission of a member of staff and are threatened with prosecution. Like it or not, the strict liability nature of the offence means that the considerable onus of seeking evidence that they were given permission falls on the passenger.

The "nod-and-wink" arrangement may be quick and easy for the TOCs, but if it means that an honest passenger can be prosecuted and, if not successful in finding the evidence they need, convicted, it is clearly flawed from the passenger's point of view.
 

Starmill

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But what of the minority of cases, such as the OP's, where for one or other reason they are not believed?
I would take great care in my job if I were ever to accuse someone of lying in an official capacity. Indeed, if a passenger were accused of attempting to avoid paying the correct fare, then that would be a very serious crime they're being accused of and a potential slander claim if they hadn't done so.
the Bylaw has been broken and they have every right to prosecute such cases
Except that it hasn't, so I would argue that they don't. In my view this is precisely why the power to initiate such prosecutions must be taken away from private companies.

but if it means that an honest passenger can be prosecuted
No. This system does not result in honest passengers being prosecuted. The poor judgment of the appropriate department that might choose to go ahead with a prosecution is the only problem here.
 

mallard

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The fact is, the way the railway rules/laws/bylaws are written means that "the railway" can basically give any passenger a criminal conviction at any time if they decide to do so. There are multiple ways that passengers can be forced break the law by "the railway" and many non-obvious and (in my opinion) unreasonable ways they could do so and a plethora of "strict liability" offences for which there is no legal defence.

Things such as using writing or drawing anything on anything (6.3), leaving waste (including in bins; 6.7), wearing branded clothing or carrying branded bags (7.2 i), using a gambling app/website while on a train or station (8), using an ungated entrance/exit to/from a platform where a gated entrance/exit exists (9.2), blocking automatic train doors (including accidentally on crowded trains; 11.1), having someone else purchase a ticket for you or buying a ticket for someone else (21.2/22.1/22.2) are all potentially criminal offences under the railway bylaws.

There are alway plenty of ways that railway staff can make your experience extremely unpleasent. They can direct you to remain in any arbitary location for an arbitaty length of time by designating it a "queue" (1) or direct you to "remove" (and confiscate if you are unable to do so, such as on a moving train) any item of your personal propery that they decide, in their own subjective personal opinion, has the capacity to "annoy" anybody (including themselves; even if it is not actually doing so 2.1).

Sure, in virtually all cases the law is not used or enforced in this way, but it could. Unhindered travel is entirely at the whim of "the railway", passengers have very little in the way of "rights". The issue of "authorisation" is just another way that the railway can make the lives of ordinary members of the public extremely unpleasent for which there is no recourse.
 

richw

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Every station staff I’ve spoken to or heard asked questions have always said speak to the TM before boarding.
The TVM doesn’t sell Rovers, booking office opens at 11 on Sundays, but a dispatcher normally about.
I’ve heard a number of questions regarding invalid tickets or unable to buy and always the answer has been ask the guard.Doesn’t work on DO trains though.

Although last week the station attendant told the passenger to tell the ticket inspector that “Steve at *station* said i can get on and pay onboard”. The ticket office staff at that station also do dispatch. Single manned station.
 

sefton

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Every station staff I’ve spoken to or heard asked questions have always said speak to the TM before boarding.

Personally I have found the TM to get rightly annoyed if you try to have a detailed ticket discussion which delays the departure of the train, but if the station staff said that is what I must do then that is what I must do...
 

Silverdale

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This system does not result in honest passengers being prosecuted. The poor judgment of the appropriate department that might choose to go ahead with a prosecution is the only problem here.

In a case where a passenger is found travelling without a ticket, claims to have been given permission to travel ("the bloke at the barrier let me through") but there is no evidence that the passenger actually was given permission... how is it poor judgement for the TOC to prosecute? Prima-facie, the Bylaw has been broken.

I know you take a different view and I'm interested to explore that with you, but if you are going to quote me in response please do not snip to change the meaning of my words. I never claimed the Bylaw had been broken as you have quoted. Only that if they believe that the passenger did not have permission to travel without a ticket, a TOC would consider that prima-facie the Bylaw had been broken. Only a court can determine whether the Bylaw has actually been broken.
 

Silverdale

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To be fair to Starmill, his response was to my suggestion that any system based on verbal permissions alone will inevitably result in some honest passengers facing prosecution. His challenge to me was that should an honest passenger be prosecuted it was not because of "this system" of verbal permissions, but the poor judgement of those who administer it.

I remain to be convinced that where no other evidence is available, any judgement by TOCs can separate the honest passenger who has been given verbal permission, from a fare dodger who simply claims as much.
 
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Starmill

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That is a pretty bold statement to make! Are you sure that no honest passenger has ever been prosecuted?
The statement I made is true but this one is very unlikely to be. Prosecution is a very serious matter, and in my view, poor systems or ignorance are no defence to the person who signs off on a prosecution if they get it wrong. If the system is poor, then it isn't the system that's causing people to be prosecuted, it's still the train company's decision.

Of course, there is also the issue of the wider system that give the train companies the power to initiate these prosecutions in the first place.
 
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Starmill

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how is it poor judgement for the TOC to prosecute?
Because if they were given permission, then no Byelaw was broken.
Prima-facie, the Bylaw has been broken.
How is this relevant? Are you saying that if they didn't break the Byelaw they should be prosecuted anyway? Or are you just going around in circles, defending the system?

Only a court can determine whether the Bylaw has actually been broken.

If you arrived at a station and were told by the ticket office staff that they had a machine fault and you should buy on the train (something that has happened to me more than once), and you then got on the train and were asked for your name and address and then were later prosecuted, would you go along with that because "prima face" you had broken the Byelaw? Then it would be up to you to organise your defence in court, which would likely see you losing without the proper (expensive) legal representation? Is that what you are saying you think is reasonable? Your only alternative in this case would have been not to travel. At what point does the court become involved, and to what point would you be willing to defend yourself?

You say you never claimed that a Byelaw had been broken, and rather that your claim is that it is thought that a Byelaw had been broken and that this passes the threshold where the true answer should be tested in court. Not a lot of practical difference between those positions though, is there? Both result in you advocating for going to court, which makes very little sense. There should always need to be very strong evidence before the decision to proceed in court can be made.

I remain to be convinced that where no other evidence is available, any judgement by TOCs can separate the honest passenger who has been given verbal permission, from a fare dodger who simply claims as much.
Why should that concern you though, if you aren't a TOC? If you are telling the truth, you expect to be believed. As long as you don't do anything wrong, why are you worried that other people might do?

It's deeply suspicious that anyone argues strongly in favour of prosecution as a solution when there is doubt and a lack of evidence. It seems this is not only not in the interest of the passenger, but not even in the interest of justice. All that concerns me is that the train companies have a policy which is sensible, well publicised and which they stick to.
 
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Starmill

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Although last week the station attendant told the passenger to tell the ticket inspector that “Steve at *station* said i can get on and pay onboard”.
I've also had station staff give me their name and say that I could refer back to it if questioned later when attempting to buy a ticket. It has never caused any problems for me.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's deeply suspicious that anyone argues strongly in favour of prosecution as a solution when there is doubt and a lack of evidence. It seems this is not only not in the interest of the passenger, but not even in the interest of justice. All that concerns me is that the train companies have a policy which is sensible, well publicised and which they stick to.

And to me that if the system chosen has scope for doubt that the passenger should always be given the benefit of it. If the TOC want to remove that doubt, a clearly-signed policy that authorisation will only ever be given in writing is the way to go.
 

Starmill

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And to me that if the system chosen has scope for doubt that the passenger should always be given the benefit of it. If the TOC want to remove that doubt, a clearly-signed policy that authorisation will only ever be given in writing is the way to go.
Well exactly. If they want to change the system to do something better, where there is more evidence and less doubt, such as always giving out stamped notes and delaying trains where neccesary, then I would entirely support that. But until such time you are spot on that any benefit of the doubt must go to passengers. No other approach is justifiable.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well exactly. If they want to change the system to do something better, where there is more evidence and less doubt, such as always giving out stamped notes and delaying trains where neccesary, then I would entirely support that. But until such time you are spot on that any benefit of the doubt must go to passengers. No other approach is justifiable.

And the fact that they *don't* do that leads me to believe that at the very least the Byelaw regarding ticketing should be removed, or ideally railway ticketing issues decriminalised entirely in the manner of parking and pursued through the civil Courts.

In essence, they can't be trusted.
 

Starmill

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And the fact that they *don't* do that leads me to believe that at the very least the Byelaw regarding ticketing should be removed, or ideally railway ticketing issues decriminalised entirely in the manner of parking and pursued through the civil Courts.

In essence, they can't be trusted.
This does seem to be what's happening, sadly.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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This does seem to be what's happening, sadly.
Decriminalisation is happening? I don't like to see TOCs taking passengers to any kind of court, but if it's civil court then that's at least a lot better than the current criminal court.
 

Bletchleyite

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No sorry, that was just my poor choice of words. I think decriminalisation is very unlikely, although it would be the best outcome to my mind.

I agree.

In Scotland, where the legal system doesn't support the kind of almost frivolous prosecutions we are seeing in England and Wales, ScotRail seems to manage just fine.
 

sheff1

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a clearly-signed policy that authorisation will only ever be given in writing is the way to go.

It seems someone was thinking along those lines when they decided to introduce an Endorsements box on the new design of tickets (no good if you cant get a ticket, of course !)

In my experience, though, staff point blank refuse to make any endorsement on a ticket, only being willing to given verbal authorisation - so much so, that I no longer both to ask.
 

Silverdale

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If you arrived at a station and were told by the ticket office staff that they had a machine fault and you should buy on the train (something that has happened to me more than once), and you then got on the train and were asked for your name and address and then were later prosecuted, would you go along with that because "prima face" you had broken the Byelaw?

First of all, I don't "go along with", let alone "argue strongly in favour of" TOCs prosecuting in situations where a passenger claims that he is travelling having been given verbal permission to do so. I haven't argued in favour of prosecution, simply that because boarding a train without a valid ticket is a slam dunk offence of strict liability, where a passenger cannot show a ticket or evidence of being given authority to travel, there is a clear risk of being prosecuted. Of course the honest passenger would expect to be believed, but the TOC has to at least consider the possibility that the passenger is a fare dodger who is spinning a tale of being given verbal permission as explanation of being found ticketless. I notice that you haven't explained how the TOC can use the good judgement you expect them to apply, to differentiate the honest passenger from the fare dodger.

What I am suggesting is that the current system of verbal permission is flawed from the passenger's point of view because the issuing of authority to travel without a ticket isn't documented or traceable. If a passenger's explanation of being given verbal permission isn't believed, without evidence of being given such permission, they are indistinguishable from a fare dodger telling a tale.

In the example you give, if I approach the conductor on the train and ask to buy a ticket, he is likely to ask why I didn't purchase at the station. I then tell the conductor that I was told to buy on the train by the staff member at the booking office as he could not issue the ticket.

What happens then depends on how believable the conductor finds my reason for boarding without a ticket. In the example you give, as it is a simple matter of checking whether the booking office was unable to issue the ticket, one would hope that the explanation would be accepted and there would be no question of prosecution.

But what should happen in a less clear cut situation? A passenger has a ticket for return travel to Reading, routed "not via London". He arrives late at the station and misses the "not via London" train. On enquiry to a member of staff on the platform, he's told the next train to Reading is via London and in the belief that he's been given authority to travel, he boards the train. When his ticket is checked on the train he refuses to pay an excess fare, arguing strongly that he was given verbal permission to take the "via London" train to get him to his destination.

The passenger has an honest (but probably mistaken) belief that he has been given authority to travel. The TOC sees a passenger traveling on an invalid ticket, refusing to pay the correct fare.

Does the TOC give the passenger the benefit of the doubt and waive the demand for payment of the excess fare?
 
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Silverdale

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It seems someone was thinking along those lines when they decided to introduce an Endorsements box on the new design of tickets (no good if you cant get a ticket, of course !)

In my experience, though, staff point blank refuse to make any endorsement on a ticket, only being willing to given verbal authorisation - so much so, that I no longer both to ask.

Repeated point blank refusal to endorse a ticket only reinforces the argument that verbal authorisation isn't worth the paper it isn't written on.
 

londiscape

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First of all, I don't "go along with", let alone "argue strongly in favour of" TOCs prosecuting in situations where a passenger claims that he is travelling having been given verbal permission to do so. I haven't argued in favour of prosecution, simply that because boarding a train without a valid ticket is a slam dunk offence of strict liability, where a passenger cannot show a ticket or evidence of being given authority to travel, there is a clear risk of being prosecuted. Of course the honest passenger would expect to be believed, but the TOC has to at least consider the possibility that the passenger is a fare dodger who is spinning a tale of being given verbal permission as explanation of being found ticketless. I notice that you haven't explained how the TOC can use the good judgement you expect them to apply, to differentiate the honest passenger from the fare dodger.

Not true, a person who boards a train without a ticket having been given permission by an authorised person to do so has not committed any offence at all, slam dunk or otherwise.

Whether or not a train company chooses to believe or disbelieve a passenger's version of events does not change this fact.
 

Silverdale

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Not true, a person who boards a train without a ticket having been given permission by an authorised person to do so has not committed any offence at all, slam dunk or otherwise.

I see you take the Starmill approach of carefully snipping/highlighting to change the meaning of a statement then suggesting it's not true.

I did not say that the honest passenger had committed an offence, but that because their version of events is indistinguishable from that of a dishonest fare dodger, they are at risk of being prosecuted.

To be fair, please quote the whole sentence, then explain why what I have suggested is not the case.
 
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