Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

Bromley boy · 22 May 2018

danthekyle said:
Indeed, the two trains I have used this week used to be 10 car 376s, meaning a capacity reduction of 120 people per train.

That’s unfortunate.

I suppose FLU 700s could in theory be used (Woolwich Dockyard would be a stumbling block, even with SDO, as you’d be stopping with 2 cars in the tunnel which wouldn’t be ideal) but berthing issues prevent this at the moment, as I understand it, so it will be RLUs for the foreseeable.

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danthekyle · 22 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
That’s unfortunate.

I suppose FLU 700s could in theory be used (Woolwich Dockyard would be a stumbling block, even with SDO, as you’d be stopping with 2 cars in the tunnel which wouldn’t be ideal) but berthing issues prevent this at the moment, as I understand it, so it will be RLUs for the foreseeable.

I believe there are no issues with platform lengths on the route, because Woolwich Dockyard is skipped (the reason given for this was because it would not accept 12 car trains).

But yes, I don't expect to be seeing any FLUs any time soon!

Bromley boy · 22 May 2018

danthekyle said:
I believe there are no issues with platform lengths on the route, because Woolwich Dockyard is skipped (the reason given for this was because it would not accept 12 car trains).

But yes, I don't expect to be seeing any FLUs any time soon!

That has long been the arrangement with 12 car networkers so, yes, could be continued in theory.

Class2ldn · 22 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
I believe it’s gone from 8 committed Sundays to 12, certainly for new entrants (of whom there are many).

Even that shouldn’t *in theory* make any difference as committed Sundays have to be either covered by mutual arrangement or worked (@Class2ldn) or similar could probably confirm.

Trainees not being trained up due to a lack of DIs and route knowledge for existing drivers is a big issue as some depots have been closed/moved and the routes driven by existing drivers have been altered in many cases.

I’m sure once the service is bedded in it will be excellent but it should never have been to allowed to commence in this state of unpreparedness.

Sunday's have been covered quite well which is probably why it hasn't been enforced.
This Sunday's issue wasn't due to lack of driver available, it's due to lack of drivers being competent in the routes , there may be a few more that thought sod that, 1st day on new timetable and knew it was going to be a disaster but overall the issue lies with the planning from gtr not the drivers.
To be honest I doubt it will ever be enforced because there's too many that won't work and gtr know they can't touch them as its not part of the working week.
Morale is not great in gtr and they rely on many favours from traincrew so if they start pushing things it will only backfire.
Out of 50 people at my depot only about 3 sign London bridge high level and they haven't got enough people to conduct, seeing as every train almost is booked through LB then it just shows how poor the planning from gtr is.
They are desperate for DI's at the moment but unless they change their approach and attitude then no-one is going to do it.
No separate licence, no support and the lack of information from managers about what routes trainees need to sign etc doesn't inspire confidence and the instructors end up trying to plan stuff without knowing whether it's correct or not.
I used to be an instructor but it's not worth the extra hassle.

Joe Paxton · 22 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
...
Trainees not being trained up due to a lack of DIs and route knowledge for existing drivers is a big issue as some depots have been closed/moved and the routes driven by existing drivers have been altered in many cases.

I’m sure once the service is bedded in it will be excellent but it should never have been to allowed to commence in this state of unpreparedness.

This is the crux of the matter isn't it, and that's on GTR. The timetable not being finalised until the last minute, which is on Network Rail's head, can't have helped, but they aren't responsible for driver training. As much as GTR might be beholden to DfT Rail, there were not civil servants micromanaging the training of drivers. Perhaps there should have been...

Joe Paxton · 22 May 2018

Class2ldn said:
...
They are desperate for DI's at the moment but unless they change their approach and attitude then no-one is going to do it.
No separate licence, no support and the lack of information from managers about what routes trainees need to sign etc doesn't inspire confidence and the instructors end up trying to plan stuff without knowing whether it's correct or not.
I used to be an instructor but it's not worth the extra hassle.

This sounds bad. Instructors should feel supported and encouraged by the company, embraced even. Is part of the problem that there aren't 'railway people' at the top of GTR that understand this I wonder? That said, it sounds like they need more 'people people', IYSWIM.

4-SUB 4732 · 22 May 2018

Ianno87 said:
The idea of running semi-fast Thameslink services via the Catford loop was thought of and discounted. Not very compatible with a 4tph stopping service and off-peak freight. Plus whole new flat junction conflicts at Cambria, Crofton Road, Nunhead, Ravensbourne and Shortlands.

Actually it wasn't necessarily the case. Even a half-hourly departure flighted with the Catford Loop stoppers would have slotted into similar / the same paths as other trains from Crofton Road to Shortlands and would have provided the journey opportunities from Medway to Kings and Maudsley; connections with London Overground towards Clapham; Bakerloo and Northern connections at Elephant and so on.

4-SUB 4732 · 22 May 2018

danthekyle said:
It certainly doesn't provide longer trains between Dartford and Greenwich - all trains are 8 car, often replacing 10 car SE trains. Many people left on platforms unable to board at Greenwich and Deptford yesterday.

As the train doesn't stop at Dockyard and as the platforms north of Kentish Town are fit for 12 coaches, it should have been 12 car. An 8 car train is a piece of junk.

Antman · 22 May 2018

NorthKent1989 said:
Then perphaps run it via Penge East? Was this ever discussed?

Some stations on that line could do with 6tph, Penge East is one of the busiest stations on the line and covers a large catchment area (as far afield as Forest Hill and Sydenham, who want a quicker run into Victoria rather than take the outer loop via Crystal Palace) the only conflict your going to get is at Herne Hill.

Surely 6tph will delay fast services?

NorthKent1989 · 22 May 2018

George166 said:
Surely 6tph will delay fast services?

Only 6tph at Beckenham Jct and Penge East, but it's a difficult one, and most likely could delay the fasts.

dlj83 · 22 May 2018

Why are replacement buses running between Strood and Higham only?

hwl · 22 May 2018

4-SUB 4732 said:
As the train doesn't stop at Dockyard and as the platforms north of Kentish Town are fit for 12 coaches, it should have been 12 car. An 8 car train is a piece of junk.

DfT ordered the requisite number of 8 /12 car based on the then presumed routes with Caterham / Tattenhall Corner getting 8 car trains. Now that some of the routes have been swapped there are too many 8 car units and too few 12 car units hence Rainham is stuck with 8 car...

4-SUB 4732 · 22 May 2018

hwl said:
DfT ordered the requisite number of 8 /12 car based on the then presumed routes with Caterham / Tattenhall Corner getting 8 car trains. Now that some of the routes have been swapped there are too many 8 car units and too few 12 car units hence Rainham is stuck with 8 car...

Absolutely right - terrible forward planning. Even the stopping trains are now fit for 12 car north of St Pancras via St Albans...

SPADTrap · 22 May 2018

DaveN said:
The 0634 from Bedford was standing room only at Flitwick presumably because the Bedford ex EMT 06:30 people didn't realise that they are supposed to get the 06:22 and because this one is still 8 cars

Is there a rule that says this..?

Sebastian O · 22 May 2018

Can anyone confirm what the reason for the extension for the TL platform at Wimbledon is for? I was under the impression that only eight car units were working the Sutton loop (and it seems like only a very short extension).

4-SUB 4732 · 22 May 2018

Class43 said:
Can anyone confirm what the reason for the extension for the TL platform at Wimbledon is for? I was under the impression that only eight car units were working the Sutton loop (and it seems like only a very short extension).

If it was to make 10 car, it was probably for the peak Southern services which run via the Loop with 10 coaches.

Joe Paxton · 22 May 2018

hwl said:
DfT ordered the requisite number of 8 /12 car based on the then presumed routes with Caterham / Tattenhall Corner getting 8 car trains. Now that some of the routes have been swapped there are too many 8 car units and too few 12 car units hence Rainham is stuck with 8 car...

And this swap was down to over-optimistic assumptions over what Windmill Junction (north of East Croydon) could handle, right?

Why was that mistake made?

Mikey C · 22 May 2018

hwl said:
DfT ordered the requisite number of 8 /12 car based on the then presumed routes with Caterham / Tattenhall Corner getting 8 car trains. Now that some of the routes have been swapped there are too many 8 car units and too few 12 car units hence Rainham is stuck with 8 car...

IF the Rainham route is here to stay, could a few more carriages be ordered to lengthen some units, as having an 8 car rush hour service here is nonsense.

whitrope69 · 22 May 2018

I am no fan of the current structure and governance of the Industry as my recent posts will have indicated. However I cant believe all of the TSGN shambles is solely down to the franchisee or its client. ASLEF are very good at conducting stalling tactics in negotiations and prevaricating over recruitment of new DI's, agreeing route learning norms and material which ultimately ties management up in knots until they know longer know which way is up. Final agreements are only reached at the 11th hour thus limiting the implementation phase to weeks instead of months and offering guaranteed chaos to the travelling public and the tax payer alike. ASLEF rarely say NO but more importantly they hardly ever say YES either. I know this because in a past life I was there and know how toxic GN/TL industrial relations are. This is no fault of any individual but as a consequence of a philosophical hatred of privatisation.

Kanrakuq · 22 May 2018

The 0955 Horsham-Peterborough got delayed through the core by 20 minutes, and ended up skipping every station after Stevenage so that by the end, it was running two minutes early.

ComUtoR · 22 May 2018

whitrope69 said:
I am no fan of the current structure and governance of the Industry as my recent posts will have indicated. However I cant believe all of the TSGN shambles is solely down to the franchisee or its client.

It is down to a number of factors.

ASLEF are very good at conducting stalling tactics in negotiations and prevaricating over recruitment of new DI's

,

How does ASLEF prevaricate over DI recruitment ? As far as I'm aware it is a management decision based on establishment levels, number of trainees and of course the budget.

agreeing route learning norms and material which ultimately ties management up in knots until they know longer know which way is up.

I am fully aware of the route learning material as its currently on my iPad. I am also aware of where I got it and ASLEF had nothing to do with it. The norms, well, er.. I may have contributed to those too.

Final agreements are only reached at the 11th hour thus limiting the implementation phase to weeks instead of months and offering guaranteed chaos to the travelling public and the tax payer alike.

You do understand that it is an 'AGREEMENT' between BOTH parties. I know what was happening with routes etc as well as DIs etc because I was directly involved. I am well aware of where the fault lies.

ASLEF rarely say NO but more importantly they hardly ever say YES either. I know this because in a past life I was there and know how toxic GN/TL industrial relations are.

Ahh so this is all ASLEFs fault.

This is no fault of any individual but as a consequence of a philosophical hatred of privatisation.

ORLY ? I know a few individuals who have a lot to answer for and directly contributed to the chaos.

Please take off the tinfoil hat.

danthekyle · 22 May 2018

After the relative success of yesterday and this morning, most of the Luton-Rainham services have been cancelled for this afternoon and evening peak.

whitrope69 · 22 May 2018

ComUtoR said:
It is down to a number of factors.

,

How does ASLEF prevaricate over DI recruitment ? As far as I'm aware it is a management decision based on establishment levels, number of trainees and of course the budget.

I am fully aware of the route learning material as its currently on my iPad. I am also aware of where I got it and ASLEF had nothing to do with it. The norms, well, er.. I may have contributed to those too.

You do understand that it is an 'AGREEMENT' between BOTH parties. I know what was happening with routes etc as well as DIs etc because I was directly involved. I am well aware of where the fault lies.

Ahh so this is all ASLEFs fault.

ORLY ? I know a few individuals who have a lot to answer for and directly contributed to the chaos.

Please take off the tinfoil hat.

And you take off your rose tinted glasses please. I am not blaming ASLEF if you read my post properly. I am just saying as bad as Govia/DfT are its not 100% their fault.

holmestm · 22 May 2018

Fun and games yesterday when the 12 car 1812 arrived at the 8 car platform at Ashwell with the rear 4 locked off... passenger alarm was activated and even then not all passengers got off. 20 minute delay.

Bromley boy · 22 May 2018

whitrope69 said:
I am no fan of the current structure and governance of the Industry as my recent posts will have indicated. However I cant believe all of the TSGN shambles is solely down to the franchisee or its client. ASLEF are very good at conducting stalling tactics in negotiations and prevaricating over recruitment of new DI's, agreeing route learning norms and material which ultimately ties management up in knots until they know longer know which way is up. Final agreements are only reached at the 11th hour thus limiting the implementation phase to weeks instead of months and offering guaranteed chaos to the travelling public and the tax payer alike. ASLEF rarely say NO but more importantly they hardly ever say YES either. I know this because in a past life I was there and know how toxic GN/TL industrial relations are. This is no fault of any individual but as a consequence of a philosophical hatred of privatisation.

And yet what have we heard on this thread about the current state of training at GTR, from a former GTR DI?

Class2ldn said:
Out of 50 people at my depot only about 3 sign London bridge high level and they haven't got enough people to conduct, seeing as every train almost is booked through LB then it just shows how poor the planning from gtr is.
They are desperate for DI's at the moment but unless they change their approach and attitude then no-one is going to do it.
No separate licence, no support and the lack of information from managers about what routes trainees need to sign etc doesn't inspire confidence and the instructors end up trying to plan stuff without knowing whether it's correct or not.
I used to be an instructor but it's not worth the extra hassle.

Sorry but all of those issues are squarely on the TOC. Nothing to do with Aslef, everything to do with the fact the TOC is unwilling to make DIing attractive enough and has failed to get its ducks in a row with depot reorganisation, many of which haven’t even been built yet.

Mixed and often contradictory instructions from management, staff treated like mushrooms (kept firmly in the dark), drivers finding platform staff at key locations refusing to dispatch them by the agreed longstanding method, but having received no instructions from the company which employs them etc.

The list goes on and on.

4-SUB 4732 · 22 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
And yet what have we heard on this thread about the current state of training at GTR, from a former GTR DI?

Sorry but all of those issues are squarely on the TOC. Nothing to do with Aslef, everything to do with the fact the TOC is unwilling to make DIing attractive enough and has failed to get its ducks in a row with depot reorganisation, many of which haven’t even been built yet.

Mixed and often contradictory instructions from management, staff treated like mushrooms (kept firmly in the dark), drivers finding platform staff at key locations refusing to dispatch them by the agreed longstanding method, but having received no instructions from the company which employs them etc.

The list goes on and on.

Absolutely right. The number of DIs who chucked in when they insisted on making it a pseudo-Management role with potential to have to go and do classroom training and making it a grade in its own right instead of a daily payment as extra... They knew it would happen, pressed ahead, and buggered it all up.

And yes, the depot situation is a farce. Drivers supposed to already be at Welwyn but car parking is a problem and then the building which was all spec'd out and those lovely pamphlets in the Hitchin mess room which now mean nothing. The much better idea of a Finsbury Park depot for Thameslink drivers who would be able to get on and off a unit at the drop of a hat now outstationed to Hornsey with unproductive diagrams from now until the end of eternity.

What a shower.

AM9 · 22 May 2018

Hadders said:
A service from Kings Cross to Horsham, I'm most impressed. Well done GTR!

Such a shame it was cancelled as it would've been nice to have covered the line.

I think

hwl said:
DfT ordered the requisite number of 8 /12 car based on the then presumed routes with Caterham / Tattenhall Corner getting 8 car trains. Now that some of the routes have been swapped there are too many 8 car units and too few 12 car units hence Rainham is stuck with 8 car...

Wasn't there the matter of the Sutton councillors and MPs kicking up a fuss about the Sutton Loop trains terminating at Blackfriars instead of going through the core. The DfT leapt at the opportunity of reducing the total rolling stock required (and hence the cost) by replacing some FLUs with RLUs. That has meant that FLUs have been prioritised for the primary services (MML Bedford, BML Brighton and ECML Peterborough) where their passenger capacity makes best use of limited paths.

Failed Unit · 22 May 2018

hwl said:
DfT ordered the requisite number of 8 /12 car based on the then presumed routes with Caterham / Tattenhall Corner getting 8 car trains. Now that some of the routes have been swapped there are too many 8 car units and too few 12 car units hence Rainham is stuck with 8 car...

Surely this can be fixed. The production line must be capable of still building more coaches to extend to 12. Or will this cause massive issues with software etc.

Failed Unit · 22 May 2018

holmestm said:
Fun and games yesterday when the 12 car 1812 arrived at the 8 car platform at Ashwell with the rear 4 locked off... passenger alarm was activated and even then not all passengers got off. 20 minute delay.

So they still are not opening the interconnecting doors and sorting out the training issues at Cambridge....

MikeWM · 22 May 2018

holmestm said:
Fun and games yesterday when the 12 car 1812 arrived at the 8 car platform at Ashwell with the rear 4 locked off... passenger alarm was activated and even then not all passengers got off. 20 minute delay.

I picked this up at Cambridge, wondered why it had sat at Ashwell for quite so long. Thanks for the explanation!

I note this train also now calls at Watlington, with an announcement that passengers for there need to travel in the front four carriages. Shame they can't do the same for Waterbeach and Littleport and then we could have proper-length trains north of Cambridge. (I've been told elsewhere on this forum that this is because the back of the train will block the level crossing while stopped at the station. But why exactly is this a problem?)

Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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