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Destination keeps changing (use of false destinations on information screens)

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I caught the 16:39 - London Cannon Street - Crayford Servive. It was displayed on the screen as Crayford. Realtimes Trains said it was the Cannon Street - Cannon Street servive .

Then at lewisham it is displayed as Woolwich Arsenal servive and hither Green it was displayed as Slade Green.

I seen this happen many times before, How comes? Can someone help?
 
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cactustwirly

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I caught the 16:39 - London Cannon Street - Crayford Servive. It was displayed on the screen as Crayford. Realtimes Trains said it was the Cannon Street - Cannon Street servive .

Then at lewisham it is displayed as Woolwich Arsenal servive and hither Green it was displayed as Slade Green.

I seen this happen many times before, How comes? Can someone help?

To stop people heading to London getting the train the wrong way round.
Happens on both the Waterloo circular services via Hounslow and via Kingston.
 

CatfordCat

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The Cannon Street circulars have done this for some time, the aim being to show it in the way that's most useful to intending passengers at each stage of the journey.

The fact that it is a train from Cannon Street to Cannon Street is of no interest or practical use to the ordinary passenger.

Obviously displaying it as 'to Cannon Street' on the down journey at London Bridge would not be very helpful to the average passenger, nor would it be helpful to a passenger wanting (say) Greenwich if the train was announced as via Greenwich at London Bridge.

I'd question the sense of showing it as a Woolwich Arsenal train as early as Lewisham, but at later stages, it's potentially a way of getting from (for example) Sidcup to Erith without having to change trains.

If it was shown as 'to Crayford' then at Crayford turned in to Cannon Street via Woolwich, then people at Sidcup loop stations wouldn't necessarily know there was a direct train opportunity, journey planners would possibly struggle to cope with a one minute 'change' between what it would see as one train and another, and there would be more confusion if people thought they had to get off one train and on to another.

At one time, there were only a few peak hour workings like this, and they were in the timetable as (for example) Slade Green via Sidcup - then turned in to an 'up' train - more of an operational convenience to avoid going in to Dartford (which may well already have been full) and train crew changing ends. But someone seems to have realised there is some passenger demand for journeys round one of the curves...
 

DanNCL

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Happens on the Yellow line of the Tyne and Wear Metro. A South Shields - St James via Whitley Bay service is advertised as a 'Newcastle' train as far as Hebburn, then as a train to 'The Coast' from Pelaw through to I think West Monkseaton, then for the rest of the journey the final destination of St James is shown. In the other direction on the same route, trains leave St James advertised as going to 'The Coast', then from North Shields to Whitley Bay as going to 'Newcastle', then for the remainder of the journey the final destination of South Shields is advertised. This is only shown on the station departures screen and announcements on the platform though, on the train the final destination is shown for the full journey (heading towards St James it's shown as 'St James via The Coast').
 

Bletchleyite

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I guess it works though it can equally be a bit confusing. The Circle Line approach might work if they named the route - "This is a Southeastern Circle train via Lewisham and Woolwich Arsenal" perhaps?
 

telstarbox

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It's strange that at Lewisham the rounder is shown to Woolwich Arsenal because it's 'overtaken' by a direct service a few minutes later:

From Lewisham:
1100 to Dartford, arrives WWA 1114
1124 "to Woolwich Arsenal" (via Crayford), arrives WWA 1213
1130 to Dartford, arrives WWA 1144 (i.e. before the train above!)
 
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telstarbox

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At one time, there were only a few peak hour workings like this, and they were in the timetable as (for example) Slade Green via Sidcup - then turned in to an 'up' train - more of an operational convenience to avoid going in to Dartford (which may well already have been full) and train crew changing ends. But someone seems to have realised there is some passenger demand for journeys round one of the curves...

The rounder train is certainly faster than the bus alternative for some journeys such as Sidcup to Erith (22 mins by train, 31-35 mins by bus).
 

Stampy

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The HS1’s show as a service to Margate, IIRC.
THEN after leaving Dover, it becomes a London St. Pancras service
 

ashworth

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The HS1’s show as a service to Margate, IIRC.
THEN after leaving Dover, it becomes a London St. Pancras service

I noticed when I was in Folkestone a few weeks ago that the HS1’s were shown as going to Whitstable.
 

riceuten

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For many years, slow trains to Cambridge were shown with a destination of Foxton (on the departure boards), presumably to encourage people to take the fasts or semifasts. The train itself showed Cambridge as a destination, as indeed did the information screens at Finsbury Park and beyond. Trains never actually terminated at Foxton - it would have been difficult for them to do so.

Slows to Peterborough, conversely, always showed Peterborough as a destination, both on the departure boards and the train itself (despite the fact that trains did a couple of times a day, terminate at Huntingdon)

This also happened with slow trains from Stansted Airport to Liverpool Street, which showed Hackney Downs as a destination, but Liverpool Street from Stansted Mountfichet onwards.

Outside the capital, York to Leeds trains would show Poppleton and Burleigh Park as destinations in either direction on the information screens, but not the train.
 
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NorthernSpirit

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Outside the capital, York to Leeds trains would show Poppleton and Burley Park as destinations in either direction on the information screens, but not the train.

Likewise with services from Leeds to Huddersfield via Bradford Interchange, the screens would display Brighouse, the train itself would display Halifax. The former 1926 from Leeds to Halifax was up and until recently shown as Brighouse via Dewsbury, when the service itself was actually going to Halifax (again, this was displayed as Halifax on the blind) before it formed another service from Halifax to Leeds.

The long withdrawn Leeds to Sheffield via Huddersfield service was advertised as going to Penistone, what's more interesting was that there wasn't a morning working from Sheffield to Leeds via Huddersfield as if there were I would have imagined that the false destination for that would have been Dewsbury.

Similar happened at Huddersfield with services to Leeds via Bradford were shown as going to Bramley, this was later changed to Bradford Interchange until the new system was installed and the service is now advertised as Leeds via Bradford Interchange.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Not sure if this represents a permanent change, but I was at Woolwich Arsenal on Saturday, and saw a circular 'via Crayford' train actually advertised as going to Cannon Street - the correct final destination. Normally I think that would have been advertised as going to Crayford:

cannon-st-circular cropped.jpg

I'm not sure this is a good idea in this case, since not only does it invite confusion with the direct Cannon Street services going from the other platform, but it means it's impossible to tell without detailed reading of the stops whether it's going via Sidcup or via Bexleyheath. If the destination said something like 'Cannon Street via Sidcup' that would probably be better - but there's not enough room for that on the indicators.
 

Bromley boy

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Not sure if this represents a permanent change, but I was at Woolwich Arsenal on Saturday, and saw a circular 'via Crayford' train actually advertised as going to Cannon Street - the correct final destination. Normally I think that would have been advertised as going to Crayford:

View attachment 51686

I'm not sure this is a good idea in this case, since not only does it invite confusion with the direct Cannon Street services going from the other platform, but it means it's impossible to tell without detailed reading of the stops whether it's going via Sidcup or via Bexleyheath. If the destination said something like 'Cannon Street via Sidcup' that would probably be better - but there's not enough room for that on the indicators.

RTT also suffers from this problem. At Hither Green, for example, rounders show up as Cannon Street services even when they are on the outbound “down” leg! The giveaway is to check which platform they are booked to depart from.

Another geekly point you might have noticed at Woolwich Arsenal is that the 4 car monitors on the down platform are now inop, and 4 car trains are required to stop at the 8 car monitors. This is due to a gap in the conductor rail which had embarrassing results in the past, with trains stopping “off the juice” and needing to be rescued!
 
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DynamicSpirit

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RTT also suffers from this problem. At Hither Green, for example, rounders show up as Cannon Street services even when they are on the outbound “down” leg! The giveaway is to check which platform they are booked to depart from.

Another geekly point you might have noticed at Woolwich Arsenal is that the 4 car monitors on the down platform are now inop, and 4 car trains are required to stop at the 8 car monitors. This is due to a gap in the conductor rail which had embarrassing results in the past, with trains stopping “off the juice” and needing to be rescued!

Ah thanks for the explanation. I had often wondered why those 4-car monitors have been out of action for so long. But out of interest... does that mean that trains only have one pick-up? I'd rather naively assumed that trains would have had several pick-ups along their length to avoid conductor rail gap issues?

It does surprise me though that no attempt has been made to resolve the issue. Trains waiting while people run along the length of the platform can't be helpful to punctuality. Abbey Wood 'up' seems to have a similar problem with 8-car trains due to there being no 8-car stop.

One question: What's RTT? Normally I'd have assumed that meant Real Time Trains, but that doesn't seem quite right for this context?
 

Old Yard Dog

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Sites like realtimetrains.com show Wirral Line trains running from e.g. Chester to Chester and will typically show Chester departures leaving from both platforms at stations like Hooton. One platform is useful for Chester passengers, the other isn't as it's for trains going to Liverpool. Needs to be sorted.

The TV monitors, platform indicators and class 507/508 destination signs more sensibly show Liverpool bound trains as going to Liverpool Central.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Ah OK, so I guess BromleyBoy did mean realtimetrains.com. In a way that doesn't surprise me too much because if my understanding is correct, RTT was created by enthusiasts (and is in large part used by enthusiasts too), so it's possibly not going to have the sophisticated systems that you'd expect Network Rail and the TOCs to have to automatically identify points of confusion where showing the final destination of a train might be inappropriate.
 

Bletchleyite

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Sites like realtimetrains.com show Wirral Line trains running from e.g. Chester to Chester and will typically show Chester departures leaving from both platforms at stations like Hooton. One platform is useful for Chester passengers, the other isn't as it's for trains going to Liverpool. Needs to be sorted.

RTT is not a "simple, for the general public" type system. It is intended for those who have some decent railway knowledge and can understand what it is telling them, and those without such knowledge can get seriously unstuck by using it. So no, it should not be sorted.

If NRE's departure boards are showing that, *they* probably should be. I don't generally support the use of false destinations, but in this specific case (where it's a double back) they do make sense.
 

318266

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Cathcart Circle:
Glasgow Central Arrival/Departure boards: Cathcart
Pollokshields East/West and onwards: Glasgow Central
Class 314: Cathcart Circle via Maxwell Park/Mount Florida
Class 380: Cathcart Circle
 

Daz28

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It's cos its a circular service - to stop confusion, it will change destinations along the way, similiar to the HS1 rounders.

It does cause confusion however, as the destination on the screens at Cannon Street is usually Crayford, whereas as soon as you get on the train, it is often Slade Green on board. The on board destination doesn’t change until you get to Slade Green, presumably as the driver has to punch a new code in to the PIS, whereas the destination on the platforms will change en-route.

Much better to call it what it is, Cannon Street Circular service via Sidcup and Woolwich Arsenal.
 

Intermodal

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Merseyrail has been doing this since time began, with it's Wirral Line services that go around the Liverpool Loop. Chester to Chester via Liverpool are advertised to Liverpool until Liverpool Central where it changes into a Chester service. The same happens for West Kirby and New Brighton services.

If you go on RTT you will see that they are in fact just a circular and only one service exists, not one each way.

I don't personally see a problem with this in this instance. Nobody wants to get on a train to Chester, at Chester - and while everyone could eventually understand what is going on if they thought about it - it just seems unnecessarily complicated for no reason.
 

Ze Random One

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I don't see why it is particularly confusing, if you are driving round the M25, you just see signs for the next routeing point, so if you are joining at the M23, you see Heathrow (M4, M1) or Dartford (M20, M11). This approach seems to work for the roads, and is readily understood, so why not the railway?
To those that would prefer a "Circle line" approach, the Kent, Richmond and Wirral loops are much more complex than the circle, and a mixture of service patterns is possible (London - Greenwich - Sidcup - London, London - Greenwich - Bexleyheath - London, London-Lewisham - Woolwich - Sidcup - London, London - Lewisham - Woolwich - Bexleyheath - London, and London - Bexleyheath - Sidcup - London covers the main combinations for the North Kent loops, most of which are used by at least one service daily).

The big improvement would be made by numbering our services like the Germans, so you could say "take S31, S32, S32A or R61 for Greenwich", but that suffers from a "not invented here" issue (although route codes used to be used before the days of ubiquitous dot matrix screens). Just so long as we don't move to the Parisian approach of "mission" codes (at least I don't find "take the ECCO, ICAR, IDIL or EBON train" particularly memorable)
 

transmanche

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The big improvement would be made by numbering our services like the Germans, so you could say "take S31, S32, S32A or R61 for Greenwich", but that suffers from a "not invented here" issue (although route codes used to be used before the days of ubiquitous dot matrix screens).
The Waterloo-Waterloo circulars have already been mentioned and these routes already have route numbers. In fact, RTT shows the route number for these services, which always used to be displayed on the 455 destination blinds.

21 - Waterloo-Wimbledon-Teddington-Strawberry Hill-Kingston-Richmond-Putney-Waterloo (advertised initially as terminating at Strawberry Hill)
and the reverse
32 - Waterloo-Putney-Richmond-Kingston-Strawberry Hill-Teddington-Wimbledon-Waterloo (advertised initially as terminating at Teddington)

87 - Waterloo-Putney-Hounslow-Twickenham-Richmond-Putney-Waterloo (advertised initially as terminating at Hounslow)
and the reverse
89 - Waterloo-Putney-Richmond-Twickenham-Hounslow-Putney-Waterloo (advertised initially as terminating at Hounslow)
 

jamesst

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Merseyrail has been doing this since time began, with it's Wirral Line services that go around the Liverpool Loop. Chester to Chester via Liverpool are advertised to Liverpool until Liverpool Central where it changes into a Chester service. The same happens for West Kirby and New Brighton services.

If you go on RTT you will see that they are in fact just a circular and only one service exists, not one each way.

I don't personally see a problem with this in this instance. Nobody wants to get on a train to Chester, at Chester - and while everyone could eventually understand what is going on if they thought about it - it just seems unnecessarily complicated for no reason.

In the case of Merseyrail, National rail advertise a Chester- Liverpool-Chester service as Liverpool Central and as Chester once it reaches Liverpool Central.
However the on train pis changes to Chester on arrival at James St on the way into Liverpool with the platform screens changing at Moorfields. This is purely to avoid confusing passengers waiting for a Chester bound service at either Moorfields or Lime Street.
 

Intermodal

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In the case of Merseyrail, National rail advertise a Chester- Liverpool-Chester service as Liverpool Central and as Chester once it reaches Liverpool Central.
However the on train pis changes to Chester on arrival at James St on the way into Liverpool with the platform screens changing at Moorfields. This is purely to avoid confusing passengers waiting for a Chester bound service at either Moorfields or Lime Street.
Yes, but what are you likely to know about what goes on at James St, jamesst??
 

TEW

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The Waterloo-Waterloo circulars have already been mentioned and these routes already have route numbers. In fact, RTT shows the route number for these services, which always used to be displayed on the 455 destination blinds.
Still are displayed on 455 destination blinds.
 
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