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Verbal instructions given by staff regarding ticketing matters

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Silverdale

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Whether or not a train company chooses to believe or disbelieve a passenger's version of events does not change this fact.

But whether a prosecution succeeds or not depends very much on whether a court chooses to believe or disbelieve a passenger's version of events. If a TOC tells the court that the passenger wasn't given authority to travel without a ticket and the passenger can provide no evidence to the contrary, the court is very likely to believe the TOC's version.
 
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londiscape

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But whether a prosecution succeeds or not depends very much on whether a court chooses to believe or disbelieve a passenger's version of events. If a TOC tells the court that the passenger wasn't given authority to travel without a ticket and the passenger can provide no evidence to the contrary, the court is very likely to believe the TOC's version.

This is very concerning. The burden of proof is not reversed simply because an offence is one of strict liability - only that there need not be any element of intent or "mens rea" for the prosecution to prove. If the byelaws meant to reverse the burden of proof onto the defendant where Byelaw 18(3) is invoked, this should be expressly stated in the Byelaw text. There is precedent for this:

- Section 40 of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 explicitly does exactly that using the words "it shall be for the accused to prove..."
- Section 5 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 states "It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1)(b) above to prove that..."

The Byelaws do not use these words - therefore one should conclude that the default criminal burden of proof applies in the absence of any words to the contrary.

So if a person charged with breach of Byelaw 18 states that they were given permission to travel by an authorised person (assuming there is no argument over what "authorised person" means) and invoking 18(3)(iii), and the TOC states that they weren't, the court should not be believing the TOC's version by default without any further evidence, especially since if the defendant's version of events is the truth, the prosecution will not be able to establish otherwise e.g. by cross-examination.

IANAL so I'll stand corrected by someone who is, if I am wrong in the above.
 

gray1404

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I too have found too many staff refuse to endorse a box, like they don't want to sign their name to something. So you the customer are left with the "staff member at the station said..................." explanation.
 

pedr

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This is very concerning. The burden of proof is not reversed simply because an offence is one of strict liability - only that there need not be any element of intent or "mens rea" for the prosecution to prove. If the byelaws meant to reverse the burden of proof onto the defendant where Byelaw 18(3) is invoked, this should be expressly stated in the Byelaw text.

This would be a good analysis except for s101 of the Magistrates Court Act 1980, which provides generally that in Magistrates Court trials, the defendant has to prove an “exception, exemption, proviso, excuse, or qualification”.

Reversing the burden of proof for defences has been considered appropriate in far more serious offences, where the defendant is in a position to have the necessary evidence and/or made a choice to proceed to do something when unable to prove the right to do it contrary to the general position. See some examples and discussion here: http://www.23es.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Reverse-Burden-Article-3.pdf
 

robbeech

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But whether a prosecution succeeds or not depends very much on whether a court chooses to believe or disbelieve a passenger's version of events. If a TOC tells the court that the passenger wasn't given authority to travel without a ticket and the passenger can provide no evidence to the contrary, the court is very likely to believe the TOC's version.

And, if I may ask, how do you feel about this?
I agree with what you are stating here. A court will indeed side with the TOC due to the nature of how many cases of fare evasion there will be in comparison to this. I am interested to know if you think this is acceptable though.
 

Silverdale

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And, if I may ask, how do you feel about this?
I agree with what you are stating here. A court will indeed side with the TOC due to the nature of how many cases of fare evasion there will be in comparison to this. I am interested to know if you think this is acceptable though.

First, just to say that I completely agree with the comment made by londiscape in #32. That the offence is one of strict liability does not mean that the burden of proof is reversed. However, the facts that have to be proved are limited to whether the passenger boarded the train without a valid ticket or other authority to travel. What was in the mind of the honest passenger - their reasonable belief of having been given verbal permission - is irrelevant. It is this which puts the honest passenger in the position of having to find hard evidence with which to counter the claim that they had no authority to travel without a ticket.

I think the current approach lacks rigour. A passenger may honestly believe that advice given to them as a result of an enquiry to railway staff amounts to permission to travel without a valid ticket, but this is very likely to lead to them being asked to pay an excess fare, buy a new ticket, pay a penalty fare, or, in extremis, be prosecuted. This is surely not an acceptable way to treat honest passengers.

Is I see it, there are a few ways in which the situation could be improved and all have been mentioned by others on this thread.

1) Benefit of the doubt. This is the suggestion that where a dispute arises over verbal permission which leads to a consideration of prosecution, the benefit of any doubt should go to the passenger. This would stop honest passengers being prosecuted, but it would leave an open goal for fare dodgers to exploit. You could say that's the TOC's problem, but one way or another, it's honest passengers who will pay for the travel of the dishonest ones, so encouraging it would be a two edged affair. It's also not clear whether the same benefit of doubt which would apply to a consideration of prosecution would also apply to the demand for payment of an excess/penalty fare.

2) Change the bylaw. If the TOCs didn't have the backstop of the strict liability offence and had to make claims for payment of fares through the civil courts they would have to be more careful about what passengers are told, as what the passenger reasonably understood from what they had been told would become a relevant matter if it got to court.

3) Document the process. Bletchleyite's suggestion is that passengers are issued with a permit from a (serial numbered?) pad. The important thing is that this can be traced back to the issuer, but it need not be overly bureaucratic to administer. Staff would simply write in the date, train(s) and station to which authority to travel had been given.

As I have said, my preference would be for option 3). My only reservation with Bletchleyite's suggestion was that in the meantime the TOCs should/would, of their own volition, adopt option 1).
 
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Bletchleyite

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I wholly agree. "Benefit of the doubt" is fine, as is if there is doubt arranging to speak by telephone (say) to the member of staff concerned. But if that's too awkward/costly/causes too much fraud, then it's time for a formal written approach, as at least one TOC (GWR?) I believe already can do, a photo of one is posted somewhere on the forum.
 

londiscape

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This would be a good analysis except for s101 of the Magistrates Court Act 1980, which provides generally that in Magistrates Court trials, the defendant has to prove an “exception, exemption, proviso, excuse, or qualification”.

Reversing the burden of proof for defences has been considered appropriate in far more serious offences, where the defendant is in a position to have the necessary evidence and/or made a choice to proceed to do something when unable to prove the right to do it contrary to the general position. See some examples and discussion here: http://www.23es.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Reverse-Burden-Article-3.pdf

Thanks pedr for raising this - I was unaware of that provision and it certainly does change things in regard to how I'd thought previously. I want to do a bit more reading around on this from an evidence law point of view.

First, just to say that I completely agree with the comment made by londiscape in #32. That the offence is one of strict liability does not mean that the burden of proof is reversed. However, the facts that have to be proved are limited to whether the passenger boarded the train without a valid ticket or other authority to travel. What was in the mind of the honest passenger - their reasonable belief of having been given verbal permission - is irrelevant. It is this which puts the honest passenger in the position of having to find hard evidence with which to counter the claim that they had no authority to travel without a ticket.

I think the current approach lacks rigour. A passenger may honestly believe that advice given to them as a result of an enquiry to railway staff amounts to permission to travel without a valid ticket, but this is very likely to lead to them being asked to pay an excess fare, buy a new ticket, pay a penalty fare, or, in extremis, be prosecuted. This is surely not an acceptable way to treat honest passengers.

Is I see it, there are a few ways in which the situation could be improved and all have been mentioned by others on this thread.

1) Benefit of the doubt. This is the suggestion that where a dispute arises over verbal permission which leads to a consideration of prosecution, the benefit of any doubt should go to the passenger. This would stop honest passengers being prosecuted, but it would leave an open goal for fare dodgers to exploit. You could say that's the TOC's problem, but one way or another, it's honest passengers who will pay for the travel of the dishonest ones, so encouraging it would be a two edged affair. It's also not clear whether the same benefit of doubt which would apply to a consideration of prosecution would also apply to the demand for payment of an excess/penalty fare.

2) Change the bylaw. If the TOCs didn't have the backstop of the strict liability offence and had to make claims for payment of fares through the civil courts they would have to be more careful about what passengers are told, as what the passenger reasonably understood from what they had been told would become a relevant matter if it got to court.

3) Document the process. Bletchleyite's suggestion is that passengers are issued with a permit from a (serial numbered?) pad. The important thing is that this can be traced back to the issuer, but it need not be overly bureaucratic to administer. Staff would simply write in the date, train(s) and station to which authority to travel had been given.

As I have said, my preference would be for option 3). My only reservation with Bletchleyite's suggestion was that in the meantime the TOCs should/would, of their own volition, adopt option 1).

I entirely agree, to treat honest rail passengers in this way is morally indefensible and utterly contrary to true justice and should not be tolerated in a civilised jurisdiction.

My preference would be option 2) in your list - abolish the ticketing elements of the Byelaws completely and let the TOCs rely on civil redress. However, any of your options would be a vast improvement on the current disgraceful situation.
 
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