court hearing for railway

Kainat Hamkar · 22 May 2018

Hey, I hope someone can help me here

I as travelling on the railway from Luton to Hendon however purchased a ticket to radlett,
I had recently moved to Luton and purchased the wrong ticket then brought another one however I lost that. The inspector thought I was lying because apparently he had heard lots of those stories. I did not cooperate well with the inspector because I had an exam and I was getting late. Because I had recently moved I did not know my new home address so I gave him my provisional and that had my old house details on it.

I received a letter to court, I wrote back of pleading guilty and told them my side of the story and stated I will not attend court. I also sent tickets of some of my previous tickets to Hendon.

I have just called court and was told they have adjourned for me to attend court.

Would any of you let me know why this has happened and what I can do to make this situation any better.

Would this all lead to them giving me a fine or something else? Also with this be on a criminal record

RailUK Forums

SPADTrap · 22 May 2018

Go to court.

Kainat Hamkar · 22 May 2018

Do u know what will happen in court? Will I be fined or will it lead to something else

SPADTrap · 22 May 2018

Kainat Hamkar said:
Do u know what will happen in court? Will I be fined or will it lead to something else

There's some experts here although I am not one but when a case is adjourned for your attendance then attending is vital.

Fawkes Cat · 22 May 2018

Welcome to the forum. As Speedbird787 says above, there are some experts here, and hopefully they will be along soon, but there's a couple of points we can put your mind at rest on straight away:

Kainat Hamkar said:
Will I be fined or will it lead to something else

- In theory, breaking the law about ticketing can have you sent to prison. But that's in theory. Unless you already have a long criminal record, the outcome will be a fine. The amount of the fine will depend on your income, so be prepared to explain how much you earn, if you get anything in benefits and so on. You will also have to pay court costs and a 'victim surcharge'. My understanding is that altogether this could add up to a sum of several hundred pounds (that is, a lot more than £100, but probably less than £1,000). So if you can't afford to pay it all at once you may also have to be prepared to talk about making a 'time to pay' arrangement where you pay in so much to the court each week or month.

Kainat Hamkar said:
Also with this be on a criminal record

- Please look at the paperwork that you were sent. It probably says what you have been charged with. If you have been charged under the Regulation of Railways Act, then yes, you will get a criminal record. If you are charged under the railway byelaws, then you won't get a criminal record.

One last thing, and I'm a bit less certain about this: I've assumed that you have pleaded guilty, or have been found guilty. It might be that the court want to see you in person because they think that as well as hearing from the prosecution, they want to hear from you to see if you have any defence. So things could be better than I am suggesting - but I don't think that things will be worse.

najaB · 22 May 2018

Kainat Hamkar said:
Do u know what will happen in court? Will I be fined or will it lead to something else

Is this the first time you will have come to the attention of the authorities?

SussexMan · 22 May 2018

najaB said:
Is this the first time you will have come to the attention of the authorities?

Just to clarify, I think the word "authorities" here means Train Operating Companies, i.e. have you been investigated or reported for fare evasion previously, not whether you have some other non-related criminal record which has been to court etc.

Kainat Hamkar · 22 May 2018

I have currently two cases for the same reason that both happened a few days after one another, however does that make a difference to what will happen

gray1404 · 22 May 2018

Are both cases with the same train company?

What happened on the other occasion. Each and every situation is different so you have told us about one of them above. Tell us about the other please.

Kainat Hamkar · 22 May 2018

gray1404 said:
Are both cases with the same train company?

What happened on the other occasion. Each and every situation is different so you have told us about one of them above. Tell us about the other please.

The other matter was me purchasing a child ticket instead of an adult ticket, inspector asked me and I gave him the wrong details because I panicked and was under pressure however I then got back into my sense and provided the right details. This matter has not been sent to court but I have received a letter to explain my side of story.

And yes there both with same train company

gray1404 · 22 May 2018

which train company is it please?

najaB · 22 May 2018

So, on two separate occasions you have been stopped for a ticketing "mistake" and "accidentally" given incorrect details. Is this correct?

Kainat Hamkar · 22 May 2018

najaB said:
So, on two separate occasions you have been stopped for a ticketing "mistake" and "accidentally" given incorrect details. Is this correct?

The first incident I provided my provisional so no

Kainat Hamkar · 22 May 2018

gray1404 said:
which train company is it please?

Thameslink railway

najaB · 22 May 2018

Kainat Hamkar said:
The first incident I provided my provisional so no

I thought you said the provisional has the wrong address?

DaveNewcastle · 23 May 2018

If this was the first time you had been found travelling without the proper ticket (and I know you've told us that it isn't), then because you have already pleaded Guilty, you would only go to the Court hearing to provide evidence of your income, so that the appropriate fine can be calculated. And if you don't go to Court, they will make an assumption about your income, and decide the fine in your absence. There is no other reason to require you to attend in person from a simple and single incident of ticketless travel on a short commuter journey.

But, as it is not the first time, the Railway Company will be entitled to speculate that you may have been doing this regularly - possibly every weekday, for one, two or maybe three years. There's also the doubt about your honesty which would arise from the failure to provide the correct address. So, I'm inclined to think that the Railway Company have made some assumptions about you, and that these assumptions amount to a high level of fare evasion. An accusation like that would normally be defended in Court, with Evidence from both sides, to give the Magistrates the opportunity to make an informed decision about those assumptions. If my guess is correct, then the Clerk to the Court has made the proper decision when deciding to adjourn the hearing; that allows you, or your solicitor, to provide the Magistrates with an appropriate response to the allegations against you.

I strongly advise you to instruct a solicitor to help you at this stage - any local Law Firm which deals with Criminal Defence work will be able to help. But if you don't wish to do that, then please immediately contact the Prosecution and ask for full disclosure of the Evidence they are presenting against you so that you can then provide appropriate Evidence in your defence. A Magistrates Court is not the place to start denying things you haven't done without any prior warning of what you are being accused of. And from my understanding of what you've said on here, the Railway Company DOES have some serious evidence against you. Whatever it is.

Kainat Hamkar · 23 May 2018

najaB said:
I thought you said the provisional has the wrong address?

The provisional was my old house address because I didn’t know my new house address but I had stated that to the inspector and he said that’s fine as long as they have something.

najaB · 23 May 2018

Kainat Hamkar said:
The provisional was my old house address because I didn’t know my new house address but I had stated that to the inspector and he said that’s fine as long as they have something.

In any regards, as @DaveNewcastle pointed out, in combination with the other incident it will ring alarm bells with the TOC's prosecution team. The suspicion will be that two 'one-off' events might be revealing a pattern of behaviour.

gray1404 · 23 May 2018

If the letters of one of the cases went to your old address, how did you come to receive them?

It is wrong for an inspector to be saying a wrong address is fine as long as they have something.

So you have one case that is pending a court hearing and another for which is you have been asked to write back to the train company to give your side of the story.

It is the first or the second incident that is facing the court hearing and is it the first or second incident that you need to write back them with your side about?

FenMan · 23 May 2018

najaB said:
In any regards, as @DaveNewcastle pointed out, in combination with the other incident it will ring alarm bells with the TOC's prosecution team. The suspicion will be that two 'one-off' events might be revealing a pattern of behaviour.

Being caught short-faring and, subsequently, being caught as an adult travelling on a child's ticket, will have the klaxons going off.
I strongly recommend that you are open and honest with the authorities. No-one will "get you off" for what you have done, but being honest with yourself and acting accordingly may mitigate the outcome in your favour.

DaveNewcastle · 23 May 2018

FenMan said:
Being caught short-faring and, subsequently, being caught as an adult travelling on a child's ticket, will have the klaxons going off.

I should have added, that it is likely that the request for the adjournment came from the Prosecution, because, as I, najaB and FenMan suspect, the Railway Company suspects there may be a bigger loss in unpaid fares then the 2 incidents you've mentioned here, and they want more time to investigate. I would expect it is likely that they want to speak with you to assess how often you have avoided the full fare so that they can make an appropriate claim for their losses.

Sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear.

Kainat Hamkar · 23 May 2018

DaveNewcastle said:
I should have added, that it is likely that the request for the adjournment came from the Prosecution, because, as I, najaB and FenMan suspect, the Railway Company suspects there may be a bigger loss in unpaid fares then the 2 incidents you've mentioned here, and they want more time to investigate. I would expect it is likely that they want to speak with you to assess how often you have avoided the full fare so that they can make an appropriate claim for their losses.

Sorry if this isn't what you wanted to hear.

Yh I assume the same thing but I’m happy to go talk to them in person as it is the only two incidents that occurred I will take as much proof as I can to state my point.

But thank you all so much for your help! Really appreciate it

Islineclear3_1 · 23 May 2018

Dress smartly, answer all questions put to you honestly, show respect and remorse and don't be cocky

Kainat Hamkar · 24 May 2018

Can anyone help me with telling me what I need to take to court or any evidence to prove my point?

Islineclear3_1 · 24 May 2018

Kainat Hamkar said:
Can anyone help me with telling me what I need to take to court or any evidence to prove my point?

What point do you need to prove? You were caught red-handed without a valid ticket

The Railway probably has sufficient evidence to support a successful prosecution against you and you have said that you have already pleaded Guilty. This "might" mean they will show leniency but will depend on what evidence they have against you

Kainat Hamkar · 24 May 2018

robert7111a said:
What point do you need to prove? You were caught red-handed without a valid ticket

The Railway probably has sufficient evidence to support a successful prosecution against you and you have said that you have already pleaded Guilty. This "might" mean they will show leniency but will depend on what evidence they have against you

Prove my point as in these are the only two cases because from comments above they suspect that the court think it’s an ongoing thing that I might be doing.

Islineclear3_1 · 24 May 2018

Do you regularly travel from Luton to Hendon? Have you retained all of your tickets or do you hold a season ticket?

Do you think you have enough (and strong) evidence (i.e. more than the Railway) to support your case even though you have pleaded Guilty?

Have you a good solicitor who is expert in these matters?

Kainat Hamkar · 24 May 2018

robert7111a said:
Do you regularly travel from Luton to Hendon? Have you retained all of your tickets or do you hold a season ticket?

Do you think you have enough (and strong) evidence (i.e. more than the Railway) to support your case even though you have pleaded Guilty?

Have you a good solicitor who is expert in these matters?

Yes I have kept quite a few of my tickets during that time of the year that this incident took place from Hendon to Luton and via Versa.

And yes I have pleaded quilty and I’m not stating evidence to prove I’m not, I’m just saying evidence to prove that this is not an ongoing offence that I make and has just happened twice which I really regret I done.

Islineclear3_1 · 24 May 2018

Kainat Hamkar said:
Yes I have kept quite a few of my tickets during that time of the year that this incident took place from Hendon to Luton and via Versa.

And yes I have pleaded quilty and I’m not stating evidence to prove I’m not, I’m just saying evidence to prove that this is not an ongoing offence that I make and has just happened twice which I really regret I done.

Bear in mind that the Railway may have CCTV evidence of you entering/leaving said stations and on the train.

If the Railway can prove that you have short-fared on more than two occasions, then I wouldn't be surprised if they throw the book at you I'm afraid

Kainat Hamkar · 24 May 2018

robert7111a said:
Bear in mind that the Railway may have CCTV evidence of you entering/leaving said stations and on the train.

If the Railway can prove that you have short-fared on more than two occasions, then I wouldn't be surprise if they throw the book at you I'm afraid

Yes I don’t mind Them checking the CCTV cameras because I know what I have done and have already stated that

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