• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Southeastern stock options for next operator

Status
Not open for further replies.

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
11,396
I’m waiting to see what will happen to the 458/5s post SWR. I have a feeling they will sit in sidings unused.

I'm hoping they will form part of Stagecoach's successful bid for Southeastern :)

I was under the impression that the plan was to move to a tweve car metro fleet. This would imply wholescale replacement of the Class 465/466 and 376 fleets.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bromley boy

Established Member
Joined
18 Jun 2015
Messages
4,611
I was under the impression that the plan was to move to a tweve car metro fleet. This would imply wholescale replacement of the Class 465/466 and 376 fleets.

An all 12 car fleet seems highly unlikely as many metro platforms are 8 car, and would be OTT off peak. Some kind of 700 style option with 8/12 car variants is surely more likely, along with the 376s retained.
 

59CosG95

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2013
Messages
6,476
Location
Between Peterborough & Bedlington
I was under the impression that the plan was to move to a tweve car metro fleet. This would imply wholescale replacement of the Class 465/466 and 376 fleets.

An all 12 car fleet seems highly unlikely as many metro platforms are 8 car, and would be OTT off peak. Some kind of 700 style option with 8/12 car variants is surely more likely, along with the 376s retained.
A 12-car metro fleet is certainly Govia's plan in the incumbent franchise; I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if Stagecoach/Alstom's bid doesn't include 458/5s replacing the 465/9s on the "long-distance Networker" diagrams, with (I assume) 1st Class being reinstated.
34 4-car units being replaced by 36 5-car units would give a net increase of 44 vehicles to SE's outer-suburban fleet.

Meanwhile, the 707s have also been touted for SE; assuming they replace the 465/2s (16 4-car units) along with 8 466s (2-car units), 16/30 of the 707s can be drafted in, like-for-like. (N.B. the 707s could be used for Southern to replace the 455/8s, but that's for another thread.) If of course SE do go for 707s, I wouldn't be surprised if Siemens builds 30 more individual coaches (not sure if they'd be powered or not) to make the 707s all 6-car.
 

Roast Veg

Established Member
Joined
28 Oct 2016
Messages
2,200
The 458s seem almost guaranteed for SE, I can't see them not being offered at a highly competitive leasing cost. Many outer suburban 465 services are run with a 466 already to bring them up to 10 car, such as the Tunbridge Wells terminators.
 

Mollman

Established Member
Joined
21 Sep 2016
Messages
1,211
So it seems that the 376s will become yet another mid-life electric fleet to have no future.
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,845
Location
St Neots
When was the last franchise spec that didn't require brand-new rolling stock?

The DfT seem deathly afraid of anything that could give the press an excuse to use the phrase "cast-offs".
 

Class465fan

Member
Joined
12 Jun 2016
Messages
262
Location
abbey wood
Seriously? More new trains? Why? The current trains we have works perfectly alright, just need a clean up in the interior (especially the networkers).
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,266
When was the last franchise spec that didn't require brand-new rolling stock?

The DfT seem deathly afraid of anything that could give the press an excuse to use the phrase "cast-offs".
SWR’s ITT didn’t explicitly ask for new stock. Yes, there were hints about certain stock’s poor dwell times, but nothing approaching ‘you must do this’...
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
8,426
Location
nowhere
When was the last franchise spec that didn't require brand-new rolling stock?

The DfT seem deathly afraid of anything that could give the press an excuse to use the phrase "cast-offs".

The ITTs generally aren't requiring new stock, but the TOCs appear to have cottoned on to the fact that the DfT scores new trains very highly when it comes to assigning the "quality" of the bid, and so bidding on that basis makes it more likely that they'll win.
 

LunchSociety

Member
Joined
5 Jul 2017
Messages
25
I would assume that the Electrostars will remain and the Metro fleet will be replaced, probably with Aventras for some commonality with the rest of the fleet. That being said, it wouldn't be outside of the realms of possibility for a Hitachi product to be selected - there would be some commonality with the 395s and you would think the price may be competitive in the wake of the ongoing 385 debacle.
 

DVD

Member
Joined
23 Jul 2009
Messages
76
Location
Sidcup
Seriously? More new trains? Why? The current trains we have works perfectly alright, just need a clean up in the interior (especially the networkers).
Southeastern's Networkers have been consistently near the bottom of the EMU reliability tables ever since their introduction twenty five years sgo. Cancellations due to train faults are common. Half the stock has no air conditioning. The seats sre very comfortable but 2 + 3 seating is not suitable for peak operation. The doors are too narrow and standing capacity is poor compared to more modern stock. I have a soft spot for them but they have to go.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
Southeastern's Networkers have been consistently near the bottom of the EMU reliability tables ever since their introduction twenty five years sgo. Cancellations due to train faults are common. Half the stock has no air conditioning. The seats sre very comfortable but 2 + 3 seating is not suitable for peak operation. The doors are too narrow and standing capacity is poor compared to more modern stock. I have a soft spot for them but they have to go.
Completely agree, I'd add lack of SDO too - where is the "like" button on the forum!

Some of the other second hand stock being proposed above also has issues and isn't tender requirement compliant.
 

Mikey C

Established Member
Joined
11 Feb 2013
Messages
6,830
Southeastern's Networkers have been consistently near the bottom of the EMU reliability tables ever since their introduction twenty five years sgo. Cancellations due to train faults are common. Half the stock has no air conditioning. The seats sre very comfortable but 2 + 3 seating is not suitable for peak operation. The doors are too narrow and standing capacity is poor compared to more modern stock. I have a soft spot for them but they have to go.

None of them have air conditioning! Of more regret is that the 376s don't have air conditioning, the only Electrostars and indeed the only post privatisation stock without it (other than the PPMs)

If the 458s and 707s were considered sub-optimal for SWR, I don't see why they would be any better for SE, especially when it doesn't operate any Siemens or Alstom stock. What gets tricky is that the SE has a mixture of platform lengths, 8, 10 and 12. That makes buying a fixed length train rather inflexible, ditto multiples of 4, 5 and 6.
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,354
None of them have air conditioning! Of more regret is that the 376s don't have air conditioning, the only Electrostars and indeed the only post privatisation stock without it (other than the PPMs)

If the 458s and 707s were considered sub-optimal for SWR, I don't see why they would be any better for SE, especially when it doesn't operate any Siemens or Alstom stock. What gets tricky is that the SE has a mixture of platform lengths, 8, 10 and 12. That makes buying a fixed length train rather inflexible, ditto multiples of 4, 5 and 6.

The SE ITT is even more strongly worded than the SW as regards things that make the 458s and 707s un-biddable without a rebuild.

There are some interesting hints in the ITT about running some of the 8 car (i.e. ex LCDR heritage routes) as 10 car with SDO (many non-Catford Loop 8 car platforms are already actually 9cars long and some could easily be extended.

By 10 car to you mean Woolwich Dockyard? which is actually 11 cars long so could easily be sorted with a working SDO system for 12 car trains. In which case the via LBG train could all be 12 car with SDO preferably with walk thorough carriages to help solve the CHX platform issues too.
 

Andy25

Member
Joined
14 May 2018
Messages
157
A 12-car metro fleet is certainly Govia's plan in the incumbent franchise; I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if Stagecoach/Alstom's bid doesn't include 458/5s replacing the 465/9s on the "long-distance Networker" diagrams, with (I assume) 1st Class being reinstated.
34 4-car units being replaced by 36 5-car units would give a net increase of 44 vehicles to SE's outer-suburban fleet.

Meanwhile, the 707s have also been touted for SE; assuming they replace the 465/2s (16 4-car units) along with 8 466s (2-car units), 16/30 of the 707s can be drafted in, like-for-like. (N.B. the 707s could be used for Southern to replace the 455/8s, but that's for another thread.) If of course SE do go for 707s, I wouldn't be surprised if Siemens builds 30 more individual coaches (not sure if they'd be powered or not) to make the 707s all 6-car.
Why would Alstom risk investment in the franchise if it wasn't to sell new trains.

A few spares sales on 458/5 isn't worth it and if not used on SE somewhere else would likely take them anyway to require spares.
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
19,155
Location
West of Andover
None of them have air conditioning! Of more regret is that the 376s don't have air conditioning, the only Electrostars and indeed the only post privatisation stock without it (other than the PPMs)

If the 458s and 707s were considered sub-optimal for SWR, I don't see why they would be any better for SE, especially when it doesn't operate any Siemens or Alstom stock. What gets tricky is that the SE has a mixture of platform lengths, 8, 10 and 12. That makes buying a fixed length train rather inflexible, ditto multiples of 4, 5 and 6.

Wasn't the 334s delivered without Air conditioning at first (only for it to be currently getting fitted to the fleet)?

-----

See if AC & SDO can be fitted to the 376s to make them more flexible for the inner suburban work.

458/5s for the outer suburban work currently undertaken by 465/9s.

Build an extra motor coach with toilet for the 707s to turn then into 6-coach units, then they will be more useful for the 12-coach network. Maybe some fixed formation 8-coach 707/1s for the Victoria - Orpington stoppers

Although in real life, it will probably be yet more Aventras :(
 

whhistle

On Moderation
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
2,636
Seriously? More new trains? Why? The current trains we have works perfectly alright, just need a clean up in the interior (especially the networkers).
Like new cars and new phones, the life cycle of things is becoming very short.
If it's not brand new, it's no good.

Isn't it next to no cost for the operator too?
As in, they don't buy the trains and while leasing costs may be higher, I'd be interested to know how that works/what the difference is. Surely newer vehicles score better in reliability and economy? Thinking how recent cars are free/very little tax because emissions and all that.
 
Last edited:

southern442

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
2,186
Location
Surrey
I hate to moan, but it seems absolutely ridiculous that on this forum we are seriously suggesting replacing trains that aren't even 15 years old whereas on some parts of the network trains of 40+ years of age are doing absolutely fine, and in other places electrification projects are being cancelled meaning they are stuck with dirty old DMU's. This mentality of ordering new stock every time a new franchisee takes over is utterly ridiculous (some European countries still run stock from the 60's with no problem) , not to mention an absolute waste of decent trains and rather harmful to the railway in terms of spending. I'm sure many people who come from areas where infrastructure upgrades are badly needed would love to hear why money isn't being spent on them, but instead on replacing still-fairly-young trains!
 

NSE

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2010
Messages
1,727
I do see both sides of the argument. But I agree too. I use 455/707/458/456's daily and I have my preferences, but only as a rail enthusiast. As a commuter, I couldn't care less, providing it turns up on time. After a day at work I flop down on to a 455 just as happily as a 707. I don't see why the Networkers should go.
 

urpert

Member
Joined
1 Dec 2015
Messages
1,164
Location
Essendine or between Étaples and Rang-du-Fliers
I hate to moan, but it seems absolutely ridiculous that on this forum we are seriously suggesting replacing trains that aren't even 15 years old whereas on some parts of the network trains of 40+ years of age are doing absolutely fine, and in other places electrification projects are being cancelled meaning they are stuck with dirty old DMU's. This mentality of ordering new stock every time a new franchisee takes over is utterly ridiculous (some European countries still run stock from the 60's with no problem) , not to mention an absolute waste of decent trains and rather harmful to the railway in terms of spending. I'm sure many people who come from areas where infrastructure upgrades are badly needed would love to hear why money isn't being spent on them, but instead on replacing still-fairly-young trains!

Networkers are neither decent nor fairly young, though.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top