Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders

Bletchleyite · 24 May 2018

6Gman said:
avoiding delays picked up west of Chester or east/south of Crewe.

Otherwise phrased as "missing connections for those travelling from west of Chester or east/south of Crewe". It needs to be a through service onto the Coast like it was for years until the WAG's stupid little pet Cardiff project[1] killed it off. Running the through services to Birmingham onto the slower, secondary route was utter politically-motivated madness that had no foundation in the way people wish to travel whatsoever. Even if there are no WCML paths for going through to Brum via Stafford it should run to Crewe for connections without having to change twice (which is still quicker than a slow trundle down the Marches).

[1] When will they get it into their thick skulls that Wales isn't Scotland, and that people from the North Wales Coast do not give a stuff about Cardiff?

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ashworth · 24 May 2018

Bletchleyite said:
For clarity the reason the shuttle is stupid is because it doesn't reflect the actual travel demand. Running Holyhead to Crewe (and ideally on to Birmingham via Stafford) hourly, and starting the Marches services at Chester like they used to, would be a better reflection of demand, rather than a political statement attempting (ultimately unsuccessfully) to cause the people of North Wales to give a stuff as to what is going on in Cardiff.

It isn’t just the people of North Wales who are inconvenienced by their trains reversing at Chester and running down the Marches line. The Chester to Crewe shuttle may be very efficient but it also causes inconvenient changes of train and longer journey times for passengers travelling from places in England to North Wales via Crewe.

Next month I will be travelling from Mansfield to Caernarfon and that will mean a journey of almost 6 hours with changes of train at Nottingham, Derby, Crewe, Chester and then bus from Bangor. The need for a change of train at Nottingham and Crewe I feel are necessary, as is the bus from Bangor. However, the changes at Derby and Chester should not be necessary if Nottingham to Crewe was a through service and Crewe to Bangor.

It does make me wonder if I should abandon the journey and go by car! It’s not just the inconvenience of changing trains and the time it takes, it’s also the annoyance of having to keep transporting my case from one train to another, especially if the trains are crowded. The connection on the outward journey is quite tight at Derby and on the return journey the connection at Crewe is quite tight. Any delay could easily result in the journey taking up to another hour longer. I’m a regular and experienced train traveller but I’m not really looking forward to this journey!

Bletchleyite · 24 May 2018

Gareth Marston said:
Will the Long Distance Fleet be sufficient to eliminate 2 car DMU working into major cities?(my minimum benchmark for the franchise outside Cardiff travel to work area local services & branches) currently ATW have 125 vehicles in their long distance fleet (48 x 158, 69 x 175 & 8 xLHCS) Your looking for that fleet to be about 160 strong to get to the point where 2 car DMU's to New ST in the peak are but bad memory's. A fleet of 802 bi modes running hourly Cardiff to Holyhead trains with the remainder still struggling is an automatic disqualification remember Transport for Wales you serve Manchester by two routes and Birmingham.

While I'm normally a bi-mode fan, as none of the Welsh network is electrified I can't see much case for anything other than simple DMU, unless the bi-mode capability is a happy side effect, e.g. if they choose Stadler units which have electric transmission anyway.

berneyarms · 24 May 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Otherwise phrased as "missing connections for those travelling from west of Chester or east/south of Crewe". It needs to be a through service onto the Coast like it was for years until the WAG's stupid little pet Cardiff project[1] killed it off. Running the through services to Birmingham onto the slower, secondary route was utter politically-motivated madness that had no foundation in the way people wish to travel whatsoever. Even if there are no WCML paths for going through to Brum via Stafford it should run to Crewe for connections without having to change twice (which is still quicker than a slow trundle down the Marches).

[1] When will they get it into their thick skulls that Wales isn't Scotland, and that people from the North Wales Coast do not give a stuff about Cardiff?

I’ll revert to my earlier post which I corrected as I’d used the wrong connections.

That “useless” shuttle connects with the Manchester-Llandudno service at Chester, the timings of which are fixed.

Are you suggesting curtailing that at Chester or running two services one immediately after the other along the coast which frankly would be complete overkill.

Bletchleyite · 24 May 2018

Either:
- Marches services to run to Chester bay only, and Holyhead to Crewe (to Brum via Stafford ideally, but I think not possible until HS2) to operate as a standalone service. If this would be too close to the VT in timing, retime it so it isn't, it doesn't interact with that much.
- Portion work off the Llandudno or Holyhead service.

Basically put it as close back to what it was before which worked well.

berneyarms · 24 May 2018

The Marches/Birmingham services don’t connect with the shuttle - I corrected myself.

They’re at the other end of the hour and are irrelevant to it as is the VT service to Chester/Holyhead. They connect with one another.

The shuttle offers a second connection every hour from London to Chester and connects with the Manchester-Llandudno service.

Adding another train every hour along the coast would be complete overkill.

squizzler · 24 May 2018

whhistle said:
Hmm. Must. Not. Be. Cynical.

I am quite open minded about what is about to come over the hill. Whilst our knowledge of the proposals is based one patchy data, I have a hunch that, for Cardiff at least, the Welsh Government has fumbled its way towards the concept of more vertically integrated "partnerships" as proposed for the East Coast and the East-West Rail.

If this is the case, will the Westminster government credit the Welsh assembly with refining many of the principles that later go into partnership style of franchising? One might suspect that is unlikely, sadly for party political reasons. Despite lack of faith in most things coming from Cardiff Bay, I feel that credit should be given for any innovations in this franchise that get taken forward to national policy.

Gareth Marston · 24 May 2018

Bletchleyite said:
While I'm normally a bi-mode fan, as none of the Welsh network is electrified I can't see much case for anything other than simple DMU, unless the bi-mode capability is a happy side effect, e.g. if they choose Stadler units which have electric transmission anyway.

Until Grayling and the DfT Luddites cancelled the wires to Swansea the Stadler bi mode was my preferred option for Manchester to Swansea given they would use the wires for a fair distance c80 miles. Gresty Lane to Manchester and Newport to Swansea.

The strong suspicion that franchise services from North Wales Coast to Manchester will have to be 1/3 & 2/3 door arrangement for Platforms 13/14 at Piccadily is a bit of spanner in the works as you only need a sub fleet with half a dozen off peak diagrams for those runs. Aside form this caveat its fairly certain that the LHCS will go and we know the 158's are staying.

So its

158 (48) + 175 (69) + cascaded 170's ( GA fleet =32) = 150
158 (48) + 175 (69) + cascaded 185s ( 66) = 183
158 (48) + 175 (69) + new build (c42) = 159
158 (48) + cascaded 170 (32) + cascaded 185's (66) = 146
158 (48) + cascaded 170 (32) + new build (80) = 160
158 (48) + new build (112) = 160

PaulHarding150 · 24 May 2018

Bletchleyite said:
While I'm normally a bi-mode fan, as none of the Welsh network is electrified I can't see much case for anything other than simple DMU, unless the bi-mode capability is a happy side effect, e.g. if they choose Stadler units which have electric transmission anyway.

The only part it would make the slightest scene is if the forthcoming c769s move to the Cardiff - Ebbw Vale line (they're currently earmarked for the Rhymney line), which will be about 10 miles under wires followed by about 20 on diesel.

However (and I know this won't happen) the WG have said that the Valleys will be electrified (including the Vale and Maesteg).

Del1977 · 24 May 2018

I didn't realise they had committed to electrifying the Vale of Glamorgan and Maesteg branch? What of the GWML from Cardiff to Bridgend?

gareth950 · 24 May 2018

PaulHarding150 said:
However (and I know this won't happen) the WG have said that the Valleys will be electrified (including the Vale and Maesteg).

Source? Or is this a typo?
Why on earth would they electrify Maesteg over Ebbw Vale?

Philip · 24 May 2018

I'd leave the Crewe-Chester shuttle as it is; it is reliable due to being self-contained and very useful for good connections. It's not a recent thing either - it was definitely running as it is now in First North Western days. The only change I'd make is to reopen Beeston Castle and Tarporley Station.

Bletchleyite · 24 May 2018

Philip said:
I'd leave the Crewe-Chester shuttle as it is; it is reliable due to being self-contained and very useful for good connections. It's not a recent thing either

It is in its current usage; there was an hourly Holyhead-Crewe-Stafford-Birmingham in FNW days (mostly LHCS) rather than the ridiculous politically driven diversion onto the Marches.

berneyarms · 24 May 2018

Bletchleyite said:
It is in its current usage; there was an hourly Holyhead-Crewe-Stafford-Birmingham in FNW days (mostly LHCS) rather than the ridiculous politically driven diversion onto the Marches.

Again (you keep ignoring this) the Marches train is at a completely different time.

Philip · 24 May 2018

Bletchleyite said:
It is in its current usage; there was an hourly Holyhead-Crewe-Stafford-Birmingham in FNW days (mostly LHCS) rather than the ridiculous politically driven diversion onto the Marches.

This was in addition to the shuttle service though. Crewe-Holyhead workings continued at a bi-hourly rate even after the current Holyhead-Cardiff service was introduced, it was the hourly Virgin to Chester which finished regular through workings up the Coast.

Welshman · 24 May 2018

ashworth said:
It isn’t just the people of North Wales who are inconvenienced by their trains reversing at Chester and running down the Marches line. The Chester to Crewe shuttle may be very efficient but it also causes inconvenient changes of train and longer journey times for passengers travelling from places in England to North Wales via Crewe.

Next month I will be travelling from Mansfield to Caernarfon and that will mean a journey of almost 6 hours with changes of train at Nottingham, Derby, Crewe, Chester and then bus from Bangor. The need for a change of train at Nottingham and Crewe I feel are necessary, as is the bus from Bangor. However, the changes at Derby and Chester should not be necessary if Nottingham to Crewe was a through service and Crewe to Bangor.

It does make me wonder if I should abandon the journey and go by car! It’s not just the inconvenience of changing trains and the time it takes, it’s also the annoyance of having to keep transporting my case from one train to another, especially if the trains are crowded. The connection on the outward journey is quite tight at Derby and on the return journey the connection at Crewe is quite tight. Any delay could easily result in the journey taking up to another hour longer. I’m a regular and experienced train traveller but I’m not really looking forward to this journey!

A slight deviation from the main thread, I know, but a few years ago, I used to travel regularly from Sleaford to North Wales, and remember the luxury of a through service from Sleaford right to Crewe [continuing to Manchester Airport at one stage], even if it was sometimes a 153 and stopping at every lampost!
The Derby-Crewe axis is now very difficult for East Midlands-North Wales journeys, and the car along the A50 is much faster, and easier with luggage. Have you considered getting the Liverpool service from Nottingham, and changing at Manchester Piccadilly? It's the same-platform interchange[14] at Piccadilly, with the Nottingham service arriving about x35 and the North Wales [some even through to Bangor], departing at x50/52. Much easier with a heavy bag.

LNW-GW Joint · 24 May 2018

berneyarms said:
The Marches/Birmingham services don’t connect with the shuttle - I corrected myself.
They’re at the other end of the hour and are irrelevant to it as is the VT service to Chester/Holyhead. They connect with one another.
The shuttle offers a second connection every hour from London to Chester and connects with the Manchester-Llandudno service.
Adding another train every hour along the coast would be complete overkill.

There's the new Chester-Leeds Northern Connect coming, though if the times which were briefly on RTT are anything to go by they won't connect very well into Wales.
The Chester-Crewe shuttle is a continuously busy service all day and is a very important link in the chain, connecting well with the Euston-Crewe-Manchester and Euston-Birmingham-Scotland and other services.
It used to run in the other half-hour when the Crewe-Holyhead ran hourly (and were the same trains doing a local shuttle before heading back to the coast).
But then the Manchester-Llandudno train also swapped clock times.
While the underlying service has been unchanged over many years, the detailed resourcing has in fact changed a lot.
Curiously, on Sundays, the Crewe-Holyhead returns to more like it used to be, while the Marches through services are remarkably thin.

SamYeager · 24 May 2018

Gareth Marston said:
Until Grayling and the DfT Luddites cancelled the wires to Swansea the Stadler bi mode was my preferred option for Manchester to Swansea given they would use the wires for a fair distance c80 miles.

I rather suspect finance rather than dislike/fear of electrification was the primary driver.

PaulHarding150 · 24 May 2018

gareth950 said:
Source? Or is this a typo?
Why on earth would they electrify Maesteg over Ebbw Vale?

No typo.

The Welsh Govt have said it is still their intention to electrify the valley lines which they've defined numerous times to include The Vale, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale. But as I said (in post #98) I didn't think it'll happen and fairly shortly they'll have to admit that they wont.

gareth950 · 24 May 2018

PaulHarding150 said:
No typo.

The Welsh Govt have said it is still their intention to electrify the valley lines which they've defined numerous times to include The Vale, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale. But as I said (in post #98) I didn't think it'll happen and fairly shortly they'll have to admit that they wont.

They've covertly admitted it already though, by constantly talking about just the 'Core Valley lines' as the only infrstructure to get any investment.

6Gman · 24 May 2018

Bletchleyite said:
Otherwise phrased as "missing connections for those travelling from west of Chester or east/south of Crewe". It needs to be a through service onto the Coast like it was for years until the WAG's stupid little pet Cardiff project[1] killed it off. Running the through services to Birmingham onto the slower, secondary route was utter politically-motivated madness that had no foundation in the way people wish to travel whatsoever. Even if there are no WCML paths for going through to Brum via Stafford it should run to Crewe for connections without having to change twice (which is still quicker than a slow trundle down the Marches).

[1] When will they get it into their thick skulls that Wales isn't Scotland, and that people from the North Wales Coast do not give a stuff about Cardiff?

I did make the point that I'd prefer through trains between Crewe and North Wales.

But it's also true to say that the Crewe - Chester shuttle (which I use frequently) is a reliable little beast which rarely misses its connections. *

* It sometimes misses its connection from N Wales (if that is late) in order to protect its connections at Crewe; but if held to provide that connection it then misses its connection at Crewe. Travel from North Wales is - sadly - pretty thin these days and it's very difficult to justify anything which raises the level of resource needed.

Bletchleyite · 24 May 2018

6Gman said:
Travel from North Wales is - sadly - pretty thin these days

I'd suggest this may be due to the level of service provided, in particular the need for 2 changes to go anywhere useful except where a through London train is running.

cactustwirly · 24 May 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I'd suggest this may be due to the level of service provided, in particular the need for 2 changes to go anywhere useful except where a through London train is running.

So I'm imagining the direct 1tph direct to Manchester then?

berneyarms · 24 May 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I'd suggest this may be due to the level of service provided, in particular the need for 2 changes to go anywhere useful except where a through London train is running.

You still haven’t said what you’d do given that the connection is the Llandudno-Manchester service.

Once every hour there’s a 1 change at Chester service to/from London.

I do think you are exaggerating this significantly.

Bletchleyite · 24 May 2018

cactustwirly said:
So I'm imagining the direct 1tph direct to Manchester then?

OK, "anywhere other than Manchester".

berneyarms said:
You still haven’t said what you’d do given that the connection is the Llandudno-Manchester service.

Once every hour there’s a 1 change at Chester service to/from London.

I do think you are exaggerating this significantly.

Multiple changes to anywhere else requiring a connection at Crewe, such as Birmingham. The Marches service doesn't count, it's way too slow.

It would be as good with the connection off the Marches service anyway, that connects from further afield than Llandudno.

cactustwirly · 24 May 2018

Bletchleyite said:
OK, "anywhere other than Manchester".

Multiple changes to anywhere else requiring a connection at Crewe, such as Birmingham. The Marches service doesn't count, it's way too slow.

It would be as good with the connection off the Marches service anyway, that connects from further afield than Llandudno.

Liverpool is one change away at Newton-le-Willows.
There's a direct service to Shrewsbury & Wrexham

Del1977 · 24 May 2018

Bletchleyite said:
I'd suggest this may be due to the level of service provided, in particular the need for 2 changes to go anywhere useful except where a through London train is running.

Not sure how realistic it is to expect more services and destinations to be served direct from the North Wales coast? You can already travel to Manchester, Cardiff and London direct. There cannot be more than 250,000 people in Wales living within 20 miles of the North Wales coast?

AllWork · 24 May 2018

LNW-GW Joint said:
There's the new Chester-Leeds Northern Connect coming, though if the times which were briefly on RTT are anything to go by they won't connect very well into Wales.

Is there anywhere I can find these times? I'm quite interested in what the new service might mean in practice.

LNW-GW Joint · 24 May 2018

AllWork said:
Is there anywhere I can find these times? I'm quite interested in what the new service might mean in practice.

They've vanished from RTT now.
The only one I really remember was xx23 from Chester to Leeds, I think on a 50-minute time to Victoria (limited stop).
But they are missing in peak hours (running to/from Ellesmere Port instead), but this is when the ATW extra operates.
We also wait to see what happens to the Wales & Borders services with the franchise change.
And how the new Liverpool service via the Halton curve fits in.

craigybagel · 24 May 2018

Del1977 said:
Not sure how realistic it is to expect more services and destinations to be served direct from the North Wales coast? You can already travel to Manchester, Cardiff and London direct. There cannot be more than 250,000 people in Wales living within 20 miles of the North Wales coast?

Note the key word "useful". The Cardiff services aren't especially useful for the people of North Wales as they don't go where most of the locals want to go.

Keolis/Amey to take over Wales and Borders

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