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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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bramling

bramling

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Taunton said:
Grant Shapps, Welwyn MP, calls for GTR to be terminated.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-44235645


Other than issuing bo11ockings, I wonder what part any Dept Transport staff can contribute. It's an operational issue.
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It’s operational, however the sponsor for the whole programme is presumably the DFT, so they are just as much to blame.

Travelling in to town today (thankfully able to use an on-time 365 service), there was an obvious mood of anger on the station, people could clearly be heard expressing their disgust at the situation, and I felt for the station staff who were taking a roasting. The general vibe I picked up was Thameslink can take their “exciting new destinations” and shove them where the sun doesn’t shine if it means the service can’t be dependable.

I predict this will become politically untenable if it goes on beyond the half-term week.

Unfortunately, removing GTR doesn’t provide a quick fix, the uncertainty may make things worse. The timetable needs to be abandoned unless things can quickly be recovered, and the impression is this is not just teething problems. How long before someone’s dusting the cobwebs off the stored 365s?!
 
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bramling

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NorthKent1989 said:
I feel the same regarding the Medway service, I think they may have to rethink certain routes and perhaps ditch a few, Thameslink clearly have overestimated themselves here, they taken on self contained routes like the Oxted and Medway routes and shoehorned them into some large version of the Northern line.
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The trouble with this incarnation of Thameslink is that many of the new services are half hourly, and in many cases are the only service serving a destination, especially off-peak.

It will be noted that many of the Thameslink apologists on here use St Albans, whose London service has always been a minimum of two sets of 4tph services, which is luxurious compared to somewhere like Biggleswade, and leaves St Albans far less exposed when disruption occurs. Nonetheless, it’s stilk common to see St Albans passengers using GN to/from Hatfield so evidently the St Albans service isn’t quite as resilient as some try to lead us to believe.

In my view Thameslink should concentrate on high-frequency metro routes with minimum 4tph frequencies, not half hourly services from much further afield. I’d keep an hourly Thameslink service from Cambridge and Peterborough to give people the through journey opportunities, but only superimposed on top of the old service. I suspect this is what may ultimately be seen if reliability can’t be improved to an acceptable level.
 
Mike395

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Skimble19 said:
Please be advised an Emergency Timetable will be in operation this weekend on GN/TL.

Details / PDFs to be published today on www.railplan2020.com and GN/TL websites.
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Looks like these changes are already in industry systems - every other train on the Bedford-Brighton route (the Gatwick terminators) is showing as cancelled. That's going to be fun on a Bank Holiday Saturday!
 
Andrewh32

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I counted up the number of Thameslink services to/from Peterborough from Sunday upto 1pm today that have been cancelled that they intended to run using RTT which came to 116, with another 61 removed from the timetable they had no intention of running, utterly appalling
 
bramling

bramling

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Mike395 said:
Looks like these changes are already in industry systems - every other train on the Bedford-Brighton route (the Gatwick terminators) is showing as cancelled. That's going to be fun on a Bank Holiday Saturday!
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On the GN side loads of STP schedules have appeared with core and beyond services replaced by King’s Cross.

A total Thameslink failure whichever way anyone tries to spin it. Couldn’t even last a week.

The silver lining is that the shambles has provided a superb and timely demonstration to GN users how fragile Thameslink is. Politically it will be a struggle for things to survive in their planned form.
 
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Kanrakuq

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Right now journey planners for tomorrow show all stations on the Peterborough line north of Hitchin having all trains cancelled. According to TL on Twitter this isn't the case and information about the timetable they will try to run tomorrow will be entered into the system overnight ... Smooth as silk.

People will rightly ignore the PDFs on the website, if they even know about them, since they're always being told the journey planners are the most up-to-date place to get information.

PS ... https://www.railplan2020.com/timetables/timetables-introduction

"Sunday Timetables
Coming soon"

I mean ...

BTW, to continue the ramble, looking at the timetable, if the Peterborough line is going to be half-hourly to Kings Cross and back all on 12-carriage 700s (is it?), great, that's all I ever wanted anyway. Used to go mad when they'd crank out the four carriage trains in late morning when everyone's travelling down to London. Was normally the most unpleasant journey of the week.

Forget the core, already proven you can't do it, just do this, I'll be happy.
 
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Downthelane

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Why are so many throwing in the towel after five days.

So many are looking for any reason for this to fail just to justify their scepticism.

I hope those with wise heads allow a month for this to settle and then review again.

Do we really want a revert to what we had before when the opportunities are so much greater once staff are all trained and things bed down.

GTR clearly weren't ready but that doesn't mean this timetable isn't workable.

Be patient, plan ahead and review at end of June.
 
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Failed Unit

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Addressing a few points. At kings cross now. Passengers for Peterborough are getting directed to St Pancras but all trains are cancelled for a couple of hours so back the come to trying to at least get north. Glad they have gone for an emergency timetable just hope they can stick to it.

As for GTR out. Yes it won’t fix things overnight but at the moment they seem to go from cock-up to cock-up. Yes DfT has blood on its hands. But I think at the very minimum Horton should go for the contempt he has shown his customers on the media. At the moment GTR seem to be able to do what they like.
 
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SA_900

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The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters.
 
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westcoaster

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The Box Photter said:
Why couldn't the miscreant unit have been run through and stabled in Smithfield Sidings? That way they wouldn't have blocked the job whilst performing the shunt back into one of the bay platforms?
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Was a pair of electrostars, big balls up. Was compunded by allowing two trains to come up behind. These two trains then had to make wrong direction moves back towards elephant, to allow the 377's back out.
 
RichJF

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westcoaster said:
Was a pair of electrostars, big balls up. Was compunded by allowing two trains to come up behind. These two trains then had to make wrong direction moves back towards elephant, to allow the 377's back out.
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Compounded by the fact that I think 375s/Networkers are not permitted north of Blackfriars anymore whereas 377/2s & 377/5s are.. Please correct me if not.
 
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Failed Unit

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Downthelane said:
Why are so many throwing in the towel after five days.

So many are looking for any reason for this to fail just to justify their scepticism.

I hope those with wise heads allow a month for this to settle and then review again.

Do we really want a revert to what we had before when the opportunities are so much greater once staff are all trained and things bed down.

GTR clearly weren't ready but that doesn't mean this timetable isn't workable.

Be patient, plan ahead and review at end of June.
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As you are one of the lucky
SA_900 said:
Precisely, it will take at least a month for kinks to be ironed out and passenger flows to make small adjustments. We should judge it once running optimally.
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I don’t think GTR are capable personally.

I guess I now know how Southern commuters feel. If they removed certain trains until they can sort this out that would be an improvement. It is the sporadic skip stopping / cancellations that are killing us. Often resulting in 2 hour gaps between trains.

I may be unlucky but I have yet to use a train between Finsbury Park and Blackfriars because of cancellations.

Is it really acceptable that on Sunday I am thinking drive to Cockfosters. Even if your train runs to London you may not get home. Teething problems are one thing. But services like London - Cambridge stoppers should in theory work. The drivers have known this route for years?

We can’t plan ahead. We can’t know what the cancellations/ skip stopping plan is. Already going to work 30 minutes earlier than pre timetable to stand a chance of getting in.
 
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southernyoshi

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How feasible would it be to remove the Thameslink services from the GN stretch & go back to pre-May 20 GN service, even if temporarily? I take it 700s can run into King's Cross.
 
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stut

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Downthelane said:
Why are so many throwing in the towel after five days.
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Because this isn't someone playing trains, this is a vital piece of infrastructure and has a direct effect on people's livelihoods, worsening the longer it goes on. You think people are angry (see the "Hitchin Revolution")? I think they've shown remarkable restraint.

Let's say a new "smart motorways" scheme was introduced on the A1(M), M1 and M23. However, because not enough of the people required to monitor the traffic and operate it had been trained in the new system, it ended up causing all those motorways to run on one lane each side. How quickly do you think it would be reversed?
 
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t0ffeeman

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southernyoshi said:
How feasible would it be to remove the Thameslink services from the GN stretch & go back to pre-May 20 GN service, even if temporarily? I take it 700s can run into King's Cross.
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Probably easy to run the timetable and diagrams but all the trains up here are now 700s so cant attach/detatch where they could last week. So its probably a no. Just starting the 700s at kgx would be good. well better than
the service this week
 
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Just overheard a conversation at Gatwick between cabin crew.

Their rostering department is having nightmares at the moment as crews are not getting to the airport in time to book on due to being delayed by the GTR issues.
 
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Where is the engineering work, tomorrow, which forces the split of Peterborough-Horsham and Brighton-Cambridge services, north and south of the Thames? Not in the core, it seems, as Brighton-Bedford (etc) continues to operate.
 
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Bishopstone said:
Where is the engineering work, tomorrow, which forces the split of Peterborough-Horsham and Brighton-Cambridge services, north and south of the Thames? Not in the core, it seems, as Brighton-Bedford (etc) continues to operate.
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As I don’t believe a word GTR say. I suspect that is an admission they can’t operate the timetable and are trying to save face. Hopefully people can travel. If it was really engineering work why halve the Kings cross to Cambridge services and cut lots of Moorgate ones. Network rail mysteriously getting everything needed for an engineering possession with 1 days notice? Really? Come on GTR stop lying to us.
 
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Bishopstone said:
Where is the engineering work, tomorrow, which forces the split of Peterborough-Horsham and Brighton-Cambridge services, north and south of the Thames? Not in the core, it seems, as Brighton-Bedford (etc) continues to operate.
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There isn’t any.
 
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stut

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Oh come on, now. Trains to Moorgate are going to be diverted to King's Cross until 09:30 on Saturday. That's some significant stuff right there.
 
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After the 08:55 Wimbledon to Sutton left the next train wasn't until 13:25 and it left 19 minutes late.

From Sutton from 10am onwards there about 1 an hour at 19 past. However there was no 12:19 and the 13:19 left 28 minutes late. 2 minutes before the 13:49 should leave but that was cancelled.

The 14:49 and 15:19 are currently delayed but the 15:49 is on time. The 16:19 is delayed by 14 minutes currently.
 
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Downthelane said:
Do we really want a revert to what we had before when the opportunities are so much greater once staff are all trained and things bed down.
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That depends greatly on where you are, if your in the Medway where before you had semi fast trains to Charing Cross, which called only at major interchange stations, and your journey was 1hr 10 mins then yes we would much rather have what we had before than have a pointless all stops Thameslink service which goes to Luton, a trip which could be made by either going via HS1 to change at St. Pancras for Luton, or after Dec 2018 make a trip to Abbey Wood, Crossrail to Farringdon then Thameslink to Luton, aside from that most of us in Medway either want the route changed to run via Bromley South to replace the previous Medway to Victoria stopper via Denmark Hill, or a complete return of our Woolwich semi fasts and to get rid of Thameslink.
 
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Anyone who has been a contractor to Network Rail on say a possession will know they require such detailed information and planning in advance. You have to tell them way in advance not only your plant, but who will be the operators, by name, along with details of their certifications being in date, and such like. It takes a lot of effort but they obviously find it necessary so the job can run as well as possible.

Absolutely nothing like this seems to have happened here. Nobody seems to have checked whether there were adequate staff, with spares, on hand and scheduled for each shift. Nobody checked whether all the route training had been done. It was like the whole thing just went through completely unplanned. It's not like they have not had years to prepare. And as far as saying that timetable changes are so difficult (as Grayling states), the railway has had 150 years of experience in doing so. You would have thought they would have cracked how to do it by now.
 
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