Court summons issued from Westminster magistrates court for fare evasion

SyedFurqanShah · 24 May 2018

hello guys please help me out to much worried
I was traveling to harpenden from leagrave station and i bought a return ticket for that but on that day i was not feeling well so i fall in sleep in train when i woke up i was passed by my intended stop and it was near westhampstead station thn i was too confuse what to do so the revenue fraud officer came and i told him and also show him the tickets for from leagrave to harpenden and i was offering him that i will pay the penalty but he refuse and said u will get a letter now after almost two month i get intended prosecuted letter and stated to reply within 21 days what happend from ur point of view i replied now today i got court summons and stated to attend a court on 4th june plzz help me out i want to resolve this issue out of court coz i dnt want add a criminal record on my name i am living in Uk from past two year never do any mistake it was my first and last time i am ready to pay any fine and the court summons state Bylaws 18(1) will it lead me to criminal offence if i pleas guilty

RailUK Forums

gray1404 · 24 May 2018

What did your first letter say? Do you have a copy of your reply to them?

I am surprised that GTR are taking this to court for a first time offender without first offering an Out of Court Settlement.

robbeech · 24 May 2018

Whilst it doesn’t mean you won’t get a substantial fine, a bylaw offence doesn’t come with a criminal record.

FenMan · 24 May 2018

The natural reaction when falling asleep and passing an intended stop, and being woken up and asked for your ticket, is to apologise and ask how to return to your intended destination ASAP. I certainly wouldn't offer to pay a penalty.

Railway staff are all too familiar with sleeping passengers who, it turns out, do not have a valid ticket for the journey they're making. It's also not unusual to hear that the sleepiness was caused by sickness.

I am not doubting the veracity of your account, but am explaining how this looks from the perspective of the Railway Company, so please do consider whether what you have written includes all salient details, including the day and time of your journey. Otherwise the advice provided on here may not be of much, if any, assistance in resolving your predicament.

SyedFurqanShah · 25 May 2018

FenMan said:
The natural reaction when falling asleep and passing an intended stop, and being woken up and asked for your ticket, is to apologise and ask how to return to your intended destination ASAP. I certainly wouldn't offer to pay a penalty.

Railway staff are all too familiar with sleeping passengers who, it turns out, do not have a valid ticket for the journey they're making. It's also not unusual to hear that the sleepiness was caused by sickness.

I am not doubting the veracity of your account, but am explaining how this looks from the perspective of the Railway Company, so please do consider whether what you have written includes all salient details, including the day and time of your journey. Otherwise the advice provided on here may not be of much, if any, assistance in resolving your predicament.

Hello i am sharing with you the letter which i recieved from court

gray1404 said:
What did your first letter say? Do you have a copy of your reply to them?

I am surprised that GTR are taking this to court for a first time offender without first offering an Out of Court Settlement.

the first letter was that u write to us what happend from ur point of view so i wrote to the thameslink but today they send me a court summon kindly check it i am uploading that letter

SyedFurqanShah · 25 May 2018

robbeech said:
Whilst it doesn’t mean you won’t get a substantial fine, a bylaw offence doesn’t come with a criminal record.

Well i am ready to pay any fine but i am afraid of criminal record and second think i recieved three option to select among them i am sharing with u can u check it and advise me which one will be relevant

SyedFurqanShah · 25 May 2018

FenMan said:
The natural reaction when falling asleep and passing an intended stop, and being woken up and asked for your ticket, is to apologise and ask how to return to your intended destination ASAP. I certainly wouldn't offer to pay a penalty.

Railway staff are all too familiar with sleeping passengers who, it turns out, do not have a valid ticket for the journey they're making. It's also not unusual to hear that the sleepiness was caused by sickness.

I am not doubting the veracity of your account, but am explaining how this looks from the perspective of the Railway Company, so please do consider whether what you have written includes all salient details, including the day and time of your journey. Otherwise the advice provided on here may not be of much, if any, assistance in resolving your predicament.

Hello and is it possible that i call thameslink and told them that i want to do the out of court settlement ? Coz i afraid from these courts issues ans i never do anything wrong in this country and i dnt want that it affect my future careers if i get a criminal record

theblackwatch · 25 May 2018

I have edited your attachment so that it does not show your address. We recommend that you do not such post personal information on this site.

SyedFurqanShah · 25 May 2018

theblackwatch said:
I have edited your attachment so that it does not show your address. We recommend that you do not such post personal information on this site.

Thankyou so much for letting me know i am too much confuse that hope someone can help me here thanks alot to u

SyedFurqanShah · 25 May 2018

theblackwatch said:
I have edited your attachment so that it does not show your address. We recommend that you do not such post personal information on this site.

Can u plzz edit other attachements aswell plzz which i share plzz

gray1404 · 25 May 2018

Yes it is possible for you to call and ask them that.

SyedFurqanShah · 25 May 2018

gray1404 said:
Yes it is possible for you to call and ask them that.

Thankyou i will call them tomorrow hope that i get some relief from them

furlong · 25 May 2018

If this does go to court, you should find a local solicitor to represent you as it's possible there might be a technical argument here that there is no case for you to answer. (In short, it might be possible to argue that byelaw 18 refers to the point in time when you entered the train, not some later point in time mentioned in the summons, and at that earlier time before you fell asleep you were in possession of a valid ticket entitling you to travel. Travelling beyond the destination on your ticket is usually dealt with under a different law.)

SyedFurqanShah · 25 May 2018

furlong said:
If this does go to court, you should find a local solicitor to represent you as it's possible there might be a technical argument here that there is no case for you to answer. (In short, byelaw 18 refers to the point in time when you entered the train, not some later point in time mentioned in the summons, and at that earlier time before you fell asleep you were in possession of a valid ticket entitling you to travel.)

Do i must need a solicitor actually i am student and i also do not work so its difficult for me to afford solicitor ? Will get a criminal record if i found guilty ??

furlong · 25 May 2018

For reference, byelaw 18(1) says:

18. Ticketless travel in non-compulsory ticket areas
(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

Islineclear3_1 · 25 May 2018

it's not like you had no ticket at all so I can't see there was any intent to defraud the railway - assuming you were truthful to the inspector about falling asleep. When you entered the train, you said you had a valid ticket.

Can out of court settlements still be negotiated at the court on the day up to the time of hearing?

I would hope for some leniency here

najaB · 25 May 2018

robert7111a said:
Can out of court settlements still be negotiated at the court on the day up to the time of hearing?

Yes, they can.

SyedFurqanShah · 25 May 2018

robert7111a said:
it's not like you had no ticket at all so I can't see there was any intent to defraud the railway - assuming you were truthful to the inspector about falling asleep. When you entered the train, you said you had a valid ticket.

Can out of court settlements still be negotiated at the court on the day up to the time of hearing?

I would hope for some leniency here

Hello i call the train company and ask for out of court settlement they told and give me email to send us an email and offer us a resonalble fine cost how much should i tell them so that the case can be resolved and withdrawn from court what will be the reasonable price which i should offer and they agree ?

SyedFurqanShah · 25 May 2018

najaB said:
Yes, they can.

I call them today and ask for an out of court settlement they told me to send us an email and offer a resonable fine so we our prosecution team will look at it and if they agree with ur price they will with drawn ur case from court . What will be the reasonable price that i can offer and they agree with it any idea ??

JN114 · 25 May 2018

SyedFurqanShah said:
I call them today and ask for an out of court settlement they told me to send us an email and offer a resonable fine so we our prosecution team will look at it and if they agree with ur price they will with drawn ur case from court . What will be the reasonable price that i can offer and they agree with it any idea ??

Going rate for most settlements reported on here is in the bracket £80-150. Best of luck.

gray1404 · 25 May 2018

When you email the train company you are NOT seeking to pay a fine. You need to refer to it as an Out of Court Settlement. I suggest you post a draft copy of your email onto this thread (leaving out any personal information) for others to comment on BEFORE you send it to them.

Haywain · 25 May 2018

If they have already stated in the summons that they will be requesting to be awarded costs of £125, the settlement will need to be a bit higher than that.

SyedFurqanShah · 25 May 2018

Haywain said:
If they have already stated in the summons that they will be requesting to be awarded costs of £125, the settlement will need to be a bit higher than that.

Yes thats what i keep in mind and offer them to pay 200£ fine to withdrawn case from court

SyedFurqanShah · 25 May 2018

gray1404 said:
When you email the train company you are NOT seeking to pay a fine. You need to refer to it as an Out of Court Settlement. I suggest you post a draft copy of your email onto this thread (leaving out any personal information) for others to comment on BEFORE you send it to them.

The lady with whom i speak on phone she told me to make an offer in email so we will put that forward to our prosecution team and they will thn decide what step to take . And she also told me that offer a good reasonable price so i offer 200£ and i am even ready to pay more just want to resolve this issue out of court coz i dnt want to affect my career if it go to court i am afraid that i will get a criminal record and end of this year i will getting admission in phd so i dnt want that it have any influence on that

furlong · 25 May 2018

That sounds rather too high to me unless you've not paid the correct fare on other occasions too.

Your offer needs to cover two things:

- any fares you have not paid but should have done (Did you for example buy a new ticket to get you back to the station you had gone past or do you still owe that fare?)

- their costs in dealing with this - and you can see from the summons that they would be asking for 125 pounds which could include some costs they won't incur if they withdraw the case.

SyedFurqanShah · 26 May 2018

furlong said:
That sounds rather too high to me unless you've not paid the correct fare on other occasions too.

Your offer needs to cover two things:

- any fares you have not paid but should have done (Did you for example buy a new ticket to get you back to the station you had gone past or do you still owe that fare?)

- their costs in dealing with this - and you can see from the summons that they would be asking for 125 pounds which could include some costs they won't incur if they withdraw the case.

Actually i am too worried and i want to resolve the issue as soon as poosible thats why made an offer of high cost of fine what should i do now i was thinking that 125 they already mention in the summon so thats why make high amount so that they dnt think too much and resolve the issue soon

island · 26 May 2018

A good solicitor, or a good argument, will knock this case on the head.

You have been charged with a byelaw 18 (1) offence of entering a train without a valid ticket. That section prohibits entering a train without a valid ticket. It does not prohibit being on a train without one. You clearly did have a valid ticket when you entered the train – I hope you have retained it. That ought to be enough to obtain a not-guilty verdict, or, if shown to the prosecutor on the day, for them to drop the case.

They ought to have charged you with a different offence, such as section 103 Railway Clauses Consolidation Act 1845 (neglecting to quit a carriage upon arrival at the point to which your fare was paid). But they haven’t.

I do not recommend paying any sort of out of court settlement.

SyedFurqanShah · 26 May 2018

island said:
A good solicitor, or a good argument, will knock this case on the head.

You have been charged with a byelaw 18 (1) offence of entering a train without a valid ticket. That section prohibits entering a train without a valid ticket. It does not prohibit being on a train without one. You clearly did have a valid ticket when you entered the train – I hope you have retained it. That ought to be enough to obtain a not-guilty verdict, or, if shown to the prosecutor on the day, for them to drop the case.

They ought to have charged you with a different offence, such as section 103 Railway Clauses Consolidation Act 1845 (neglecting to quit a carriage upon arrival at the point to which your fare was paid). But they haven’t.

I do not recommend paying any sort of out of court settlement.

And what if i found guilty on court will i get a criminal record on this ??

island · 26 May 2018

The offence you have been charged with does not carry a criminal record. It may nevertheless appear on enhanced DBS checks (only).

najaB · 26 May 2018

island said:
I do not recommend paying any sort of out of court settlement.

While there is merit in your argument, the OP should consider the certainty that a settlement would bring vs the uncertainty of going to court. There is always the possibility that there are facts of which we are not aware that would invalidate that line of defence. E.g. the ticket presented might not have been valid on that train at all.

Court summons issued from Westminster magistrates court for fare evasion

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