Wrong Route Accepted (Hypothetical)

greatkingrat · 24 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
Yes earlier in the week a driver contacted the signaller to inform them he didn’t sign the canal tunnels and was told he would be routed into Kings + but was sent into the tunnels anyway and had to make a wrong direction move back out.

I know no more than those basic circumstances but I would hope the driver would be fully exhonerated in that instance.

The driver still should have known from the route indicators that he was being sent down the canal tunnels and stopped before the signal to query it.

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Stampy · 24 May 2018

greatkingrat said:
The driver still should have known from the route indicators that he was being sent down the canal tunnels and stopped before the signal to query it.

If I recall correctly, the speed limit around that area is 45mph, braking to 15mph halfway through Gasworks Tunnel (for trains into King's Cross) - so the driver wouldn't be at a very high speed, unless the diverging signal is badly sited??

I'm hoping to go through the Canal Tunnel this weekend!!!

Bromley boy · 24 May 2018

greatkingrat said:
The driver still should have known from the route indicators that he was being sent down the canal tunnels and stopped before the signal to query it.

True.

Just seems a little harsh if a driver (likely unfamiliar with the new arrangements) has stopped to check, the signaller has confirmed the route is correct, and still gets penalised when it isn’t.

ComUtoR · 24 May 2018

It's a tricky one. I'm not privvy to what happened but most things come out in wash anyway.

What can happen is that you get led into a situation. The Driver could have stated (and by no means is this what happened) "Signaler, this is the Driver of 9Xxx. Can you confirm that the route is set correctly ?" Everyone is doing their job correctly but there is no real clear understanding and both parties interpret the correctly set route differently, ergo a wrong route gets accepted. What you should really say (and by no means is this exhaustive) "Signaler this is the Driver of 9Xxx. Can you confirm that the route has been set for the Down Moorgate'

It is also very easy to accept what is said and when you see an unfamiliar indication to then accept what route is given. Even when you stop and challenge you may be told one thing but the opposite happens. My first time in a complex area after a single day briefing some months prior resulted in my challenging the Signaler. "Signaler are you aware that I am booked into X station but your sending me via Y" "Yes Driver, I'm sending you to X buy via Y and Z" What I then do is put my trust in the Signaler and follow the route given.

Or the Sig tells you your being routed via the slow but the signal pulls off for the fast. Or Via X or Via Y both take you to your destination and the Signaler says your routed via X but actually sends you via Y. Do you accept knowing that you can still get to your destination or challenge again ?

There are many human factors involved with wrong routes and different places where it goes wrong; if you pardon the pun.

Sometimes NR re-signal an entire set of signals out of a mainline station and the Drivers don't get the memo......

Dieseldriver · 24 May 2018

Muzer said:
Of course you must remember that the areas you tend to control in SimSig are larger than the areas real signallers control - SimSig will often simulate an entire PSB in one sim, whereas in reality it'd be split into a number of panels, each with its own signaller. Thus your area of control is smaller and your attention is less likely to be distracted for long enough to result in forgetting to unset auto buttons. I'm sure it still happens though!

I doubt people on Simsig are dealing with members of the public calling up for permission to cross at UWCs or arranging line blockages or Drivers contacting them to report X Y or Z though...

ChiefPlanner · 24 May 2018

These things have happened since time immemorial - the up South Yorkshire ex Leicester went to Watford Met one day with an A3 Pacific at the helm , (Signalman Rickmansworth to explain !) an Inter City routed via the Swansea District Line nearly got to Neath Abbey Wharf , one of my drivers had a brave attempt on an ECS train nearly got to Turnham Green (vice Willesden Junction) - all signalling errors , and to my knowledge the drivers were unable to stop in time.

PS - seen a few of them in my time , train crew tend to not just reverse back as you might in a car , but change ends and drive from the correct end. Bit tricky mind with a long freight train ....

LAX54 · 24 May 2018

Recall many years ago now, a cross country train was 'wrong routed' at Trowse, Up Main vice Up Thetford, Driver took route, but then kept going, somehow unaware that he was going wrong way! was stopped by Signals near Swainsthorpe, of course then he was in a right pickle. could not go forward, did not know the route, could not go back, too far / did not know the route either !
In the end a Driver Manager turned up, took the train to Stowmarket, then via Bury !

Crossover · 24 May 2018

Right Away said:
Yes they will be. There are plenty of locations where the driver of an approaching train has no previous way of knowing which way a route has been set over a junction until the signal protecting the junction is viewed. Cogload Junction near Taunton is a good example. Running on greens, by the time you see the signal it is far too late to be able to stop before it. As long as the driver reacts instantly, the delay will be 'O' coded to Network Rail.

In such a circumstance, would a driver be expected to immediately do emergency or would it be permissible to do highest step braking such that the brakes could be released for a stop without sending everything behind flying?

LAX54 · 24 May 2018

Right Away said:
Yes they will be. There are plenty of locations where the driver of an approaching train has no previous way of knowing which way a route has been set over a junction until the signal protecting the junction is viewed. Cogload Junction near Taunton is a good example. Running on greens, by the time you see the signal it is far too late to be able to stop before it. As long as the driver reacts instantly, the delay will be 'O' coded to Network Rail.

Trowse Junction is another example, when route set, the signals Norwich side of the bridge are green, however the junction signal does not come into sight until the train has gone over the bridge, it is then he will see if the route at the junction is set incorrectly, sharp braking needed to stop right side of the signal, if train stops in time, it's a 100% 'O' code. 50/50 otherwise, which some may say is a tad unfair (depending on how far!)

ChiefPlanner · 24 May 2018

Worting Junction was another one - where every now and then (rarely to be honest) , where a down electric would get the route from an erring Basingstoke SB towards Salisbury. As it is a high speed turnout , you could potentially go a long way ,even with a very full brake application....course in BR days you had standard buffer connections on an EMU , and a local crew of some sorts to pull you back and (having had a good laugh) , have another go at getting towards the South Coast. Awkward interviews to follow for all parties ....

GB · 24 May 2018

swills said:
Trowse Junction is another example, when route set, the signals Norwich side of the bridge are green, however the junction signal does not come into sight until the train has gone over the bridge, it is then he will see if the route at the junction is set incorrectly, sharp braking needed to stop right side of the signal, if train stops in time, it's a 100% 'O' code. 50/50 otherwise, which some may say is a tad unfair (depending on how far!)

That signal is even worse when theres a freight sitting in the loop. Much like CO326, proceed aspect to the middle road or platform 2 via 1342pts and again, on a curve made worse by the presence of a freight train on either the Lowestoft or Goods.

AlexNL · 24 May 2018

Dieseldriver said:
I doubt people on Simsig are dealing with members of the public calling up for permission to cross at UWCs or arranging line blockages or Drivers contacting them to report X Y or Z though...

That depends on the simulation and the settings you're playing it with.

The Peterborough simulation (Hitching - Stoke Jn) has people calling to ask for permission to use a level crossing, has calls coming in from Nene C.S., faults can occur ("track circuit failure in the Tallington area") and drivers call to complain when you offer them a wrong route.

LAX54 · 24 May 2018

GB said:
That signal is even worse when theres a freight sitting in the loop. Much like CO326, proceed aspect to the middle road or platform 2 via 1342pts and again, on a curve made worse by the presence of a freight train on either the Lowestoft or Goods.

We have looked at possible solutions to CO552 at Trowse, but it's not easy, as the signals on the other side of Trowse Bridge already have route indicators on them.

MichaelAMW · 24 May 2018

ChiefPlanner said:
Worting Junction was another one - where every now and then (rarely to be honest) , where a down electric would get the route from an erring Basingstoke SB towards Salisbury. As it is a high speed turnout , you could potentially go a long way ,even with a very full brake application....course in BR days you had standard buffer connections on an EMU , and a local crew of some sorts to pull you back and (having had a good laugh) , have another go at getting towards the South Coast. Awkward interviews to follow for all parties ....

I do believe it was electrified to the first signal beyond the junction so that it was easier to recover if an electric train was sent down the wrong line. 90mph turnouts installed in the 1960s must have been quite revolutionary!

jyte · 24 May 2018

MichaelAMW said:
I do believe it was electrified to the first signal beyond the junction so that it was easier to recover if an electric train was sent down the wrong line. 90mph turnouts installed in the 1960s must have been quite revolutionary!

Colton's worse! 125mph with virtually no over-run towards Leeds!

RichJF · 25 May 2018

Well this morning it seems a Southeastern driver accepted a route into platform 2 at Blackfriars. Not sure if this is classed as a wrong route after the timetable change as SE drivers do/used to do Sevenoaks services. It's now put out the TL core timetable.

In this case the SE train had to reverse back then reverse again to get into platform 4 at Blackfriars. Not sure who'd cop the blame here. Signaller for directing the wrong operator into the wrong platform, or the SE driver taking the TL route into Blackfriars.

Mintona · 25 May 2018

Driver hasn’t taken a wrong route and should face no responsibility. He was correctly routed into a platform at a terminal station in which his train could be accommodated. For all the driver knew, the core ahead was closed and the 2 bay platforms both already filled with 12 coach trains.

I’ve terminated in Platform 2 at Blackfriars and returned to Sevenoaks before, it’s not overly uncommon.

Alteran Ancient · 25 May 2018

SE drivers that have signed Blackfrairs have signed all platforms, not just the bays. I've raised this with NR management in the past, but rather than having mitigation procedures in place for a "wrong platform", they're too obsessed with trying to attribute blame.

There is a junction just South of Platform 2, but last time this happened, it was being fouled by a 700 that was just behind the 375. Either move the signal so the junction doesn't get fouled, or move the junction closer to the platform so that it cannot be blocked in this way.

Muzer · 25 May 2018

Presumably another solution would be to provide location-specific rules that drivers (of all trains) are required to query routes into the core when they're booked into a bay, unless they've previously been advised that this will happen? Or is this sort of thing not generally done?

ComUtoR · 25 May 2018

RichJF said:
Well this morning it seems a Southeastern driver accepted a route into platform 2 at Blackfriars. Not sure if this is classed as a wrong route after the timetable change as SE drivers do/used to do Sevenoaks services.

It's a wrong route.

In this case the SE train had to reverse back then reverse again to get into platform 4 at Blackfriars. Not sure who'd cop the blame here. Signaller for directing the wrong operator into the wrong platform, or the SE driver taking the TL route into Blackfriars.

Wrong route taken and accepted : 50/50

Mintona said:
Driver hasn’t taken a wrong route and should face no responsibility.

Unfortunately this is now classed as a wrong route.

bcarmicle · 25 May 2018

Thanks all; this has all been very interesting!

Bit of a follow up: if a driver takes a route for which they do have the necessary route knowledge but which doesn’t go to where the timetable says the train goes, is setting back still mandatory? Or does the option of proceeding to the next station and detraining there come into play?

Also, say a London-King’s Lynn driver is put on the slow line instead of the fast. Would he be expected to check with the signaller about this given they can both reach all stations on the intended route?

greatkingrat · 25 May 2018

bcarmicle said:
Thanks all; this has all been very interesting!

Bit of a follow up: if a driver takes a route for which they do have the necessary route knowledge but which doesn’t go to where the timetable says the train goes, is setting back still mandatory? Or does the option of proceeding to the next station and detraining there come into play?

Also, say a London-King’s Lynn driver is put on the slow line instead of the fast. Would he be expected to check with the signaller about this given they can both reach all stations on the intended route?

It would depend on the situation. If, for example, a GN train to Moorgate was wrong routed to Kings Cross, it would likely be allowed to continue, as the driver would sign KX anyway and passengers could get to their destination relatively easily by tube.

There is no need to query use of slow lines instead of fast lines or vice versa, the only issue would be if you were booked to stop at a station that only had platforms on one set of lines. Even going via Hertford on a non-stop Cambridge train wouldn't be a wrong route, although in practice I would expect the driver to query it unless they were already aware of a problem on the usual route.

DY444 · 25 May 2018

The SA defines locations where an alternative route can be accepted without query providing the driver signs the route and no booked stops would be missed by taking it. Eg Quarry/Redhill if not booked to stop at Redhill

Dren Ahmeti · 25 May 2018

As above, the Sectional Appendix shows a fair amount of routes that can be taken without a necessity to query it.
One thing that comes into mind is between Didcot East Junction and Didcot North Junction, where the signaller has two routes at their disposal: via the Avoiding Lines or via Didcot Parkway.
The driver does have to be prepared to slow down for the West Curve if not diverging onto the 70mph Avoiding Lines; 25mph rising to 40mph then 90mph at North Jct, if I remember correctly.

Qwerty133 · 25 May 2018

Best one I know of recently is where 2 trains are timetabled to couple and form a singular return service from Platform 1 at Leicester and the southern end of Platform 1 was out of use due to a points failure. The first half of the unit was routed into 2 and then sent to the northern end of the station in order to be moved into 4 and subsequently the second half of the unit also arrived onto 2 requiring a further movement of stock onto 4 and the units ending up being coupled at the wrong end (fortunately not a problem on this particular day but with the regular occurrence of not to be coupled ends appearing on the service could have been). Also caused other north/eastbound services to go through 3 and a reversing service from the north to use 1 instead of 4.

BingBong50 · 25 May 2018

Quoting from the Thameslink website today:

"Earlier today the 07:37 service from Sole Street to London Blackfriars was incorrectly routed into platform 2 at London Blackfriars and blocked the line towards London St Pancras International for approximately 30 minutes. Thameslink services travelling into London Blackfriars were at stand outside and needed to reverse back towards Elephant & Castle to allow this Southeastern train to be correctly placed into platform 4. This is a process that takes time, as drivers need to change ends of the trains and each train has to be reversed through each signal at safety caution, awaiting permission to proceed incrementally.

The train has now been moved into its correct platform and the line has been reopened for our services to run again, however owing to the number of services that run through this area a queue built, and it will take some time for services to return to normal.

Delays caused by disruption leave trains, drivers and crews in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is causing further congestion and delays to services across the network, particularly at St Albans and Luton where trains start and terminate."

In this particular example would the Southeastern driver not have realized he was about to be routed into the wrong platform in enough time to contact the signaler?

Dren Ahmeti · 25 May 2018

BingBong50 said:
Quoting from the Thameslink website today:

"Earlier today the 07:37 service from Sole Street to London Blackfriars was incorrectly routed into platform 2 at London Blackfriars and blocked the line towards London St Pancras International for approximately 30 minutes. Thameslink services travelling into London Blackfriars were at stand outside and needed to reverse back towards Elephant & Castle to allow this Southeastern train to be correctly placed into platform 4. This is a process that takes time, as drivers need to change ends of the trains and each train has to be reversed through each signal at safety caution, awaiting permission to proceed incrementally.

The train has now been moved into its correct platform and the line has been reopened for our services to run again, however owing to the number of services that run through this area a queue built, and it will take some time for services to return to normal.

Delays caused by disruption leave trains, drivers and crews in the wrong place at the wrong time. This is causing further congestion and delays to services across the network, particularly at St Albans and Luton where trains start and terminate."

In this particular example would the Southeastern driver not have realized he was about to be routed into the wrong platform in enough time to contact the signaler?

To add insult to injury, RTT shows 2K91 as arriving into Platform 2 1E :lol:

Bromley boy · 25 May 2018

ComUtoR said:
It's a wrong route.

Wrong route taken and accepted : 50/50

Unfortunately this is now classed as a wrong route.

Maybe the bloke who drove a networker into Blackfriars P2 and banjaxed the job had driven up there for the first time in six months, without being told the station had been re-signalled, let alone received a briefing...

Not that that has ever happened before o_O

.

ComUtoR · 25 May 2018

Duuuuudddeee I only did it once and it was still technically allowed a few months ago

nom de guerre · 25 May 2018

pompeyfan said:
The majority of the time if I’ve set a wrong route it’s because I’m busy somewhere else and I have an auto button set over a diverging junction, does this happen in real life too?

You wouldn't ordinarily 'auto' a junction signal - it's just asking for trouble. I have seen colleagues tripped up by previously unnoticed, unnecessarily 'auto-ed' signals elsewhere, though.

Wrong Route Accepted (Hypothetical)

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