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Northern's Problems in the North West

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CHAPS2034

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Answering my own question about a recovery plan, the Manchester Evening News has published the following in the last half hour

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...rthern-plan-delayed-cancelled-trains-14703864

Selected highlights are

Government bosses have been forced to come up with a ‘recovery plan’ for Northern following hundreds of cancelled and delayed trains.

Driver rostering, training and additional contingency drivers will be introduced as part of the action plan developed by The Rail North Partnership.

Northern has also agreed to put extra services in place at peak times along the Bolton corridor, including between Buckshaw and Manchester Victoria and Preston and Manchester Oxford Road.

The plan, seen by the M.E.N, also included ‘improved communications’ from Northern on Twitter, so customers are kept up to date.

The operator has come under fire after passengers were plunged into travel chaos on the first working day of its new timetable earlier this week.#

The Department for Transport and Transport for the North (TftN) have now intervened and agreed a plan with Northern in a bid to address current ‘performance issues’.

Barry White, chief executive of TftN, says the plan will restore services to acceptable levels of reliability.

“We are extremely disappointed and concerned with the inadequate performance of Northern,” he said.

“We have received a timetable recovery plan from Northern to address these concerns and improve the rail experience for passengers.

“Both Transport for the North and the Department for Transport, through the Rail North Partnership, will be monitoring progress against the plan on a daily basis.”

The Rail North Partnership is also asking the operator to improve early communication of service disruptions to the public.

Speaking at a conference on Thursday, Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham apologised if he seemed ‘agitated’ and said ‘his blood pressure was a bit high after coming off a long phone call with the Secretary of State for Transport about Northern’.

“We need much more control over our system,” he said.

“The debacle with Northern Rail tells you that the system is no-where near good enough.

“London got more power over its transport system when the mayor was elected. I believe it is right for Northern cities to say we need the same. We need the ability to oversee and integrate this transport system if it’s going to work for the travelling public.”

The M.E.N. has asked Northern for a comment.

Further down the article are some details of Burnham's conversation with Grayling which is not very well written and could be interpreted in a couple of ways.:E
 
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jizzer

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One of the reasons the Blackpool to Buxton service was ended was due to the appalling time keeping. Too many pinch points (preston, Ordsall Lane, castlefield and Piccadilly) it in effect got shortened to Preston to Hazel Grove.
But history will repeat itself with the proposed Blackpool to Macclesfield service.

There are massive issues with Oxford Road with more trains than ever using it as releiving point for through services.

When the job goes tits up within minutes Units are dumped at Oxford Road due to releiving traincrew being stuck elsewhere.

Northern seem to have recognised this as there are now 'ferry' turns at Oxford Road to try and shift abandoned trains.

What really needs to happen is when traincrew depart Liverpool/Blackpool/Wigan they should stay on it until Crewe/man airport/Macclesfield or wherever and return with the same train. None of this relieving at Oxford Road. Unfortunately it doesnt look like northern have recruited in those depots to enable this and have to rely on the larger Manchester depots to take the trains to there final destination.

In the ideal world they should have also had a 4 track railway from Piccadilly to castlefield junction but there has probably been too much development around Deansgate for this to happen.
 

Chester1

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In the ideal world they should have also had a 4 track railway from Piccadilly to castlefield junction but there has probably been too much development around Deansgate for this to happen.

Most of the route from the planned platforms 15 and 16 to Oxford Road is safeguarded for 4 tracking. There is planning permission for a tower block next to Deansgate station. To 4 track that section everything between the viaduct and the road would need to be demolished which includes Deansgate station and 2 historic pubs. In addtion the area is absolutely prime development land. The main issue with capacity at that end is the low speed of Castlefield Junction from the CLC which is 20mph. The land next to the junction is owned by NR and the viaduct could be widened to allow a more gentle curve and higher linespeed. Infrastructure is a long term solution though. Are there any realistic short term fixes to make the timetable work?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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What really needs to happen is when traincrew depart Liverpool/Blackpool/Wigan they should stay on it until Crewe/man airport/Macclesfield or wherever and return with the same train. None of this relieving at Oxford Road. Unfortunately it doesnt look like northern have recruited in those depots to enable this and have to rely on the larger Manchester depots to take the trains to there final destination.

Except of course it's those three depots which are most affected by the need for crews to re-learn Preston-Blackpool North. I suspect part of the recovery plan will be just as some have suggested when calling for an emergency timetable, selective service cuts to free more crew. But without a new RDW agreement with ASLEF it's hard to see how any measure will make enough of a difference to allow acceptable reliability to resume.
 

B&I

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Most of the route from the planned platforms 15 and 16 to Oxford Road is safeguarded for 4 tracking. There is planning permission for a tower block next to Deansgate station. To 4 track that section everything between the viaduct and the road would need to be demolished which includes Deansgate station and 2 historic pubs. In addtion the area is absolutely prime development land. The main issue with capacity at that end is the low speed of Castlefield Junction from the CLC which is 20mph. The land next to the junction is owned by NR and the viaduct could be widened to allow a more gentle curve and higher linespeed. Infrastructure is a long term solution though. Are there any realistic short term fixes to make the timetable work?


Or if you want to get really radical infrastructure-wise, re-route Metrolink from Pomona, reinstate heavy rail over the old Central approach viaduct, then replace the existing viaduct east of Albion Street with a double decker, finishing at the east end with a flyover at Ardwick to the Guide Bridge lines. Or resuscitate the Picc-Vic Link. Time to think big !

Back on Earth, it's a pity that more thought wasn't given to improving railway infrastructure.a couple of decades ago, before the railways through Manchester and a number of other cities became hemmed in with new developments
 
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B&I

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Answering my own question about a recovery plan, the Manchester Evening News has published the following in the last half hour

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...rthern-plan-delayed-cancelled-trains-14703864

Selected highlights are

Government bosses have been forced to come up with a ‘recovery plan’ for Northern following hundreds of cancelled and delayed trains.

Driver rostering, training and additional contingency drivers will be introduced as part of the action plan developed by The Rail North Partnership.

Northern has also agreed to put extra services in place at peak times along the Bolton corridor, including between Buckshaw and Manchester Victoria and Preston and Manchester Oxford Road.

The plan, seen by the M.E.N, also included ‘improved communications’ from Northern on Twitter, so customers are kept up to date.

The operator has come under fire after passengers were plunged into travel chaos on the first working day of its new timetable earlier this week.#

The Department for Transport and Transport for the North (TftN) have now intervened and agreed a plan with Northern in a bid to address current ‘performance issues’.

Barry White, chief executive of TftN, says the plan will restore services to acceptable levels of reliability.

“We are extremely disappointed and concerned with the inadequate performance of Northern,” he said.

“We have received a timetable recovery plan from Northern to address these concerns and improve the rail experience for passengers.

“Both Transport for the North and the Department for Transport, through the Rail North Partnership, will be monitoring progress against the plan on a daily basis.”

The Rail North Partnership is also asking the operator to improve early communication of service disruptions to the public.

Speaking at a conference on Thursday, Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham apologised if he seemed ‘agitated’ and said ‘his blood pressure was a bit high after coming off a long phone call with the Secretary of State for Transport about Northern’.

“We need much more control over our system,” he said.

“The debacle with Northern Rail tells you that the system is no-where near good enough.

“London got more power over its transport system when the mayor was elected. I believe it is right for Northern cities to say we need the same. We need the ability to oversee and integrate this transport system if it’s going to work for the travelling public.”

The M.E.N. has asked Northern for a comment.

Further down the article are some details of Burnham's conversation with Grayling which is not very well written and could be interpreted in a couple of ways.:E


It doesn't help that a. Greater Manchester never received a Merseyrail-style segregated network b. TfGM has done so little for heavy rail, apart from daydream about turning all of it into Metrolink
 

Bletchleyite

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It doesn't help that a. Greater Manchester never received a Merseyrail-style segregated network b. TfGM has done so little for heavy rail, apart from daydream about turning all of it into Metrolink

Isn't (b) basically (a), but in a different (street running instead of underground) form?

In essence Metrolink (in its original form plus the Oldham line) and Merseyrail are the same thing in two different implementations - local stopping rail services in a city converted to a kind of metro and removed from interaction with other heavy rail services.
 

Robertj21a

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It doesn't help that a. Greater Manchester never received a Merseyrail-style segregated network b. TfGM has done so little for heavy rail, apart from daydream about turning all of it into Metrolink

I would have thought that most local residents would be delighted to have a modern, frequent, light rail system available. To them, heavy rail may be more appropriate to longer distance/commuting/holidays etc.
 

Bovverboy

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jizzer said:
What really needs to happen is when traincrew depart Liverpool/Blackpool/Wigan they should stay on it until Crewe/man airport/Macclesfield or wherever and return with the same train. None of this relieving at Oxford Road. Unfortunately it doesnt look like northern have recruited in those depots to enable this and have to rely on the larger Manchester depots to take the trains to there final destination.

There's obvious logic in what you're saying, the only downside being that all crews working the route would need to be familiar with its entirety, which I presume at the moment they're not. And don't forget that Crewe, Manchester Airport and Macclesfield aren't currently Northern depots, so it wouldn't be particularly convenient (or even acceptable?) for crews to take their break there.
A possible circuit for Liverpool crews could be Liverpool - Crewe - Piccadilly (3h 15m), 1h 18m off, then Piccadilly - Crewe - Liverpool (3h 26m). To a non-railwayperson that might appear to be not particularly productive, but there would be signing on/off times to add, and I think the end result would compare quite well with what prevails now.
The equivalent circuit for a Manchester crew would be Piccadilly - Crewe - Liverpool (3h 26m), 1h 01m off, then Liverpool - Crewe - Piccadilly (3h 15m).
As to route knowledge, why shouldn't crews know the entire route? They wouldn't necessarily need to know any other routes, although I imagine it would be considered sensible that they did. The above circuit would provide work for (probably) 14 Manchester crews daily, or 22/23 on a rota, which would strike me as perfectly viable. A dedicated Liverpool rota would be of only 7/8 crews, so, yes, other work might need to be added.
 

Darren R

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I'm a bit bemused at this 'recovery plan.' Northern are short of drivers, resulting in mass cancellations, and their plan is to counter this by running extra services, presumably by using the drivers that they don't have? Are these to be extra trains additional to the ones they already can't run, or extra trains additional to the ones that they can run?

And what does this talk of 'contingency drivers' mean? Where are they coming from - the East Lancashire Railway? West Coast Rail? o_O I mean, if they're that desperate I'll give it a bash if they ask me nicely! :p
 

B&I

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I would have thought that most local residents would be delighted to have a modern, frequent, light rail system available. To them, heavy rail may be more appropriate to longer distance/commuting/holidays etc.


Yes, I am sure the people of Greater Manchester would be overjoyed to know that they were saved from having a heavy rail suburban electric railway serving most of the conurbation. I'm sure that they'd look at the amazing service they've received this week and count their lucky stars that they remain crammed into diesel trains using infrastructure so overworked that it virtually guarantees an unreliable service.
 

B&I

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Isn't (b) basically (a), but in a different (street running instead of underground) form?

In essence Metrolink (in its original form plus the Oldham line) and Merseyrail are the same thing in two different implementations - local stopping rail services in a city converted to a kind of metro and removed from interaction with other heavy rail services.


To a degree, but the Manchester suburban rail (Mankyrail ?) network proposed would have removed a lot of local services from the congested central area tracks they still occupy. Would probably have eliminated the need for the Manchester HS2 tunnel as well
 

WCMLaddict

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What if I told you.... that there’s no shortage of drivers at Northern in North West region?
Every single depot has drivers over establishment! Every one.
 

Buspilot

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I'd tend to believe it.
How come Virgin have not had to train drivers on Preston to Blackpool before introducing their enhanced service?
 

td97

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85 full cancellations now showing... at least they're now giving (slightly) more notice, as they seem to be for the rest of the day. I noted this morning that the cancellations seemed further in advance than at the start of the week.
What if I told you.... that there’s no shortage of drivers at Northern in North West region?
It seems to me that the current issues are down to poor management and an undeliverable timetable.
 
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Malay States

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Here's just one example. The 11.51 MOX-BPN (ex Airport) arrived at MOX about 10 minutes late, with a platform full of passengers, a driver (to Preston), a guard (to Blackpool North),and a green signal. But the platform indicator showed it cancelled. The driver, surrounded by the guard and several platform staff, tried to get hold of Control. It took 10 minutes to get through, to get permission to go as far as Preston, and eventually left 24 minutes late.
At Wigan NW the platform announcement was that the train was for Glasgow. The bemused Virgin platform staff were not expecting it and had to ask the driver what train it was. At Leyland the train did not appear on the platform indicator. Obviously the system still thought the train was cancelled.
However at Preston the platform indicator was still showing for Blackpool North, and passengers piled on. There was no replacement driver, so the driver who brought it in then spent 20 minutes trying to get though to Control to find out what to do, blocking platform 3 for that time ( platform 2 being blocked by a cancelled Leeds train).
This tells me two things. 1: that the chaos is so embedded that it will take many months to rectify, and 2: that the heroes of the hour are the platform staff who have to face the justifiable passenger anger. They are probably amongst the lowest people on the railway. I have little sympathy with the guards, who strike against the travelling public for their own self interest, and the drivers who are to blame to whatever extent for the RDW problem.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I'm a bit bemused at this 'recovery plan.' Northern are short of drivers, resulting in mass cancellations, and their plan is to counter this by running extra services, presumably by using the drivers that they don't have? Are these to be extra trains additional to the ones they already can't run, or extra trains additional to the ones that they can run?
And what does this talk of 'contingency drivers' mean? Where are they coming from - the East Lancashire Railway? West Coast Rail? o_O I mean, if they're that desperate I'll give it a bash if they ask me nicely! :p

How can Northern run extra services on the Bolton route, when the whole reason for the rejigged timetable was the lack of DMUs because of electrification delays?
If there are spare trains why were they not being used?
If there is a shortage of trained drivers how can they operate the trains anyway, until training is complete? Are they hiring freight TOC drivers to conduct?
With the writing on the wall several weeks ago, why wasn't the recovery plan instituted earlier by Northern?
Did they just cross their fingers and hope for the best?
Many questions, few answers.
Chris Gibb (NR non-exec) investigated the GTR plans for DfT and revised (phased) them, though it has not gone smoothly there either.
At least TfN have now broken cover about the situation, though nobody seems ready to talk to the media.
NRE says replacement buses Preston-Blackpool now extended to "at least Sunday May 27".
 

WatcherZero

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It doesn't help that a. Greater Manchester never received a Merseyrail-style segregated network b. TfGM has done so little for heavy rail, apart from daydream about turning all of it into Metrolink

Most of the increased frequency and Sunday services we have gained since 2004 have been down to their intervention of sponsoring the lengthening of trains and commissioning additional services beyond franchise spec. We may not have had new stations but that was because they were spending it on every day improvements rather than headline projects.
 

pemma

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78 cancellations and 58 other service updates currently showing, including cancellations and part cancellations of last services.
 

pemma

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Steve Rotheram has just appeared on Granada Reports saying he's asked Northern to run extra trains this Sunday and stop late trains at more stations if Liverpool win the Champions League and have a victory parade on the Sunday - I'm not sure if he realises the extent of Northern's problems at the moment.
 

Bevan Price

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Except of course it's those three depots which are most affected by the need for crews to re-learn Preston-Blackpool North. I suspect part of the recovery plan will be just as some have suggested when calling for an emergency timetable, selective service cuts to free more crew. But without a new RDW agreement with ASLEF it's hard to see how any measure will make enough of a difference to allow acceptable reliability to resume.
I have written elsewhere (and been riticised for it), but it is time that franchises specified that TOCs should be required to have enough staff to ensure that no overtime or rest day working is necessary.
 

Tractor2018

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What if I told you.... that there’s no shortage of drivers at Northern in North West region?
Every single depot has drivers over establishment! Every one.

Define a shortage.

2 weeks ago I seen a roster for a link with 5 vacancies. That's 1 link at 1 depot.

Maybe you don't call that a shortage - but I don't call it over establishment.
 

WCMLaddict

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Was it before the links were finalised? MCV?

I’ll say this once again. There’s no driver shortage at Northern (central and west company regions). There’s huge training backlog, and I’m not talking here about Preston-Blackpool training.

You have drivers with over 5 years experience not signing all routes in their links...
 

northernchris

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What if I told you.... that there’s no shortage of drivers at Northern in North West region?
Every single depot has drivers over establishment! Every one.

Is this down to drivers not been qualified on many routes so they aren't that productive? This would explain additional services on the Bolton corridor if this is where a good chunk of drivers are passed out for. I also remember seeing a post on Facebook last week showing that Northern were on emergency rostering this week which can't have helped the cancellation level - hopefully that will settle down from last week
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Define a shortage.

2 weeks ago I seen a roster for a link with 5 vacancies. That's 1 link at 1 depot.

Maybe you don't call that a shortage - but I don't call it over establishment.

It almost certainly is not a shortage. Establishment is based on a calculation involving the total number of turns to be covered, a set level of spare coverage and the number of working days in the week. This is not the same as the number of lines in the link. In order to make rostering palatable to those working the turns within the links there is normally some sort of repeating pattern relating to types of turns, say "earlies" and "lates", and how the rest days fall within individual weeks. In Northern's case that leads to links needing to be multiples of 6 in length. Where the establishment is not a multiple of 6 the link will contain what are effectively lines of excess spare in order to maintain the pattern. But the cost of that excess is avoided by only staffing up to the establishment number rather than the length of the links. Even without RDW that works reasonably well most of the time. The problem is that in addition to the turns that cover timetabled services Northern now has a hefty chunk of unavoidable training to cover as well. Without RDW it's not possible to cover everything. It's the lack of a RDW agreement that's causing the bulk of the current shortage.
 

Tractor2018

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I don't have it to hand. From memory it was either week starting 13th or 20th.

I'd like to say more, but this isn't the proper platform.
 

Tractor2018

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In Northern's case that leads to links needing to be multiples of 6 in length. Where the establishment is not a multiple of 6 the link will contain what are effectively lines of excess spare in order to maintain the pattern. But the cost of that excess is avoided by only staffing up to the establishment number rather than the length of the links.

The one I seen had a total number of lines not equal to a multiple of 6. However if you removed the 5 vacancies that actually would be a multiple of 6.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, that is contrary to what you're saying.
 
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