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Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

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coppercapped

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What a load of rubbish. Modelling is used all the time on structures and machines and can use assumptions based on the experience of engineers and products. Should we break the Forth bridge every few years so we know it wont fall down? Shall we crash a Pacer every year to see what happens? What about a 5 year old Ford Focus? Aeroplane manufacturers use analysis based on data to determine the number of pressurisation cycles that a plane can manage.

I am going to promise myself not to look at this thread again as the doubters just want to throw everything at Vivarail as they would like them to fail. A British company with an idea, entirely funded by themselves. Why don't people trust them to have decent engineers, when they never question that of Bombardier or Siemens? If they sell product they may make money, if they don't they will lose it!
Whoosh!
 
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DarloRich

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I am sure we will be watching how the 230s perform in revenue earning service. I still have a genuinely open mind on the project

I will be able to offer a daily report ;)

I was against this idea for zombie trains and I would still prefer a new " proper" train to replace our 150. However a couple of Pacers would be better than the rotten and unreliable 153's WM provide us with so a couple of underground trains with a ford transit engine cant be any worse ;)
 

pemma

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I will be able to offer a daily report ;)

I was against this idea for zombie trains and I would still prefer a new " proper" train to replace our 150. However a couple of Pacers would be better than the rotten and unreliable 153's WM provide us with so a couple of underground trains with a ford transit engine cant be any worse ;)

143s and 144s refurbished to the 'ePacer' standard wouldn't necessarily be bad trains for short routes with low loadings but trying to find suitable routes for them to be used in single formation is a trickier task. If you're going to run them doubled up all the time, then they're probably not the most cost effective solution.
 

Bletchleyite

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I will be able to offer a daily report ;)

I was against this idea for zombie trains and I would still prefer a new " proper" train to replace our 150. However a couple of Pacers would be better than the rotten and unreliable 153's WM provide us with so a couple of underground trains with a ford transit engine cant be any worse ;)

I have noticed most days that WMT now have a spare 150 at Bletchley, meaning they could I suppose run two 150s and keep the 153 as the spare, I wonder why they don't?
 

Bletchleyite

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short routes with low loadings

That essentially describes the Vale to a tee. A small fleet of 3 ePacers would be just fine.

The requirement is:
- Self powered
- 2 car
- 20m vehicles at longest
- Three units so there is a spare at Bletchley

Anything fitting that will do. The 230 fits perfectly, it doesn't mean other things don't.
 

DarloRich

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3 x Pacer would do fine. They can run single up all day long. I would happily take 3 x 144's if i have to give up my 150. That might not play well with the local media mind...................

I have noticed most days that WMT now have a spare 150 at Bletchley, meaning they could I suppose run two 150s and keep the 153 as the spare, I wonder why they don't?

I am not sure if it is a true spare or there for training - although last week we had 2 x 150's running for a while.
 

DarloRich

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I've certainly noticed a reduction in cancellations (to none, basically) since it has been there. I think the "spare" has been a 153 some of the time.

there have been some cancellations recently but levels have dropped again.

TBH i am keen to get the converted underground trains down here so we can see what they are like.
 

zn1

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The branch has a history of being the test bed for some novel experiments in the past..

Fact is this...Class 230 will be driven and operated in real time environment. 15 miles with 11 stops, max speed of 40 Mph

they are in reality the best thing for the branch, now until someone finally lays some steel west of swanbourne no new fleets will be made available..

I would argue some real time shake down testing at Old dalby or perhaps some overnight testing on the branch would be in order, to get some mileage accumalation in and to finally prove they wont be shaken apart, that the Tranny power units can cope with "rail power" operating, let the BY crews see what they can do, allow the BY Men and women to "break em" and see what happens when real time conditions and operating are applied by the crews. T

the only winner will if they fail will be the taxi drivers.. just a thought
 

Domh245

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That essentially describes the Vale to a tee. A small fleet of 3 ePacers would be just fine.

The requirement is:
- Self powered
- 2 car
- 20m vehicles at longest
- Three units so there is a spare at Bletchley

Anything fitting that will do. The 230 fits perfectly, it doesn't mean other things don't.

The 230 has the advantage over other conventional stocks in that it has been designed to be maintained by a man with a forklift, a van, and a hardstanding. They can be maintained in situ - which you wouldn't be able to do with a conventional DMU.
 

HLE

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I will be able to offer a daily report ;)

I was against this idea for zombie trains and I would still prefer a new " proper" train to replace our 150. However a couple of Pacers would be better than the rotten and unreliable 153's WM provide us with so a couple of underground trains with a ford transit engine cant be any worse ;)

I reckon it’s the air down there that makes them unreliable. Near bulletproof up this way.

I’d rather have a 153 than a pacer. Much better ride quality.
 

hooverboy

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Thought the linespeed of the Vale was 60mph?
it is.

the line does have a few stops within very short distance of each other, so if they can out-accellerate a sprinter they may well be a useful stop-gap until EW rail comes along.

to be honest they should be "future proofing" the line now in anticipation of EW rail, not waiting until it hits them on the head.
Ultimately this is in network rails ballpark
 

HLE

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It’s the railway. Joined up thinking and all that....

Thing is network rail don’t have a blank cheque to go chucking money at every project that seems to be a good idea. If/when EWR gets off the ground then think about upgrades on the line.
 

Rail Blues

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I thought I heard a howl of dispair on the breeze from 'the very best part of rural Cheshire!' :D
 

DarloRich

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Thought the linespeed of the Vale was 60mph?

it is but the 150 touches 60 mph once in its journey from Blethcley to Bedford according to my gps. The 153 doesn't even get that fast! The stop start nature of the line will be a good test for the machinery
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I'm sure @Paul Sidorczuk will be delighted to hear that the D trains have found use in the next Wales & Borders franchise.

I just noticed an alert this morning from your good self and as I had not been following this thread for some months, save for a recent short posting session, may I ask as to the number of Class 230 units and the specified type of traction which have been ordered and the starting date for delivery of these onto the said Wales and Borders franchise.
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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I thought I heard a howl of dispair on the breeze from 'the very best part of rural Cheshire!' :D

I may well be 73 years of age and somewhat recovered from the stroke that so afflicted my cognitive thinking ability in July 2012 and I immediately read your posting above with not a little alarm, as the word "dispair" signifies the separation of a pair. I cannot recall an intention to perform such a separation.

Would you have intended to use the word "despair" in your posting?
 

Domh245

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I just noticed an alert this morning from your good self and as I had not been following this thread for some months, save for a recent short posting session, may I ask as to the number of Class 230 units and the specified type of traction which have been ordered and the starting date for delivery of these onto the said Wales and Borders franchise.

Seeing as we only found out a couple of hours ago, details aren't forthcoming, but anywhere between 10 to 16 vehicles depending on how you interpret the Welsh Government's Charts, entering service by Q3 2019. Given the timescales, I'd be inclined to think Diesel, but it could well be battery.
 

chorleyjeff

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I may well be 73 years of age and somewhat recovered from the stroke that so afflicted my cognitive thinking ability in July 2012 and I immediately read your posting above with not a little alarm, as the word "dispair" signifies the separation of a pair. I cannot recall an intention to perform such a separation.

Would you have intended to use the word "despair" in your posting?

"Would you have intended to use" ?
Why not use simple language such as "Did you intend to use" ?

From a similar aged old codger taught in school and professional life to use simply constructed short sentences.
 

pemma

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I thought I heard a howl of dispair on the breeze from 'the very best part of rural Cheshire!' :D

Maybe the focus should be on what the former Cheshire town of Heswall which contains the the 7th richest neighbourhood in the UK thinks about getting D-Trains to replace their 150s. ;)
 

Xenophon PCDGS

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"Would you have intended to use" ?
Why not use simple language such as "Did you intend to use" ?

From a similar aged old codger taught in school and professional life to use simply constructed short sentences.

Unfortunately, as my consultant would be pleased to inform you, my post-stroke cognitive thinking ability and the associated ability to express myself in more simplistic written terminology is not the same as it once was. My good lady wife, now aged 76, was somewhat startled after the stroke relieving operation in 2012 to hear how I expressed myself in speech but was pleased to see that I was still able to express my thoughts into speech, albeit somewhat differently than before.
 

47802

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I imagine most of them won't notice!

You just have to believe shooters sales pitch, "these are new trains, no honest they really are", the fact they look suspiciously like underground I remember being introduced when I was a teenager is purely incidental:rolleyes:

Looks like he managed to flog some to the North after all just not the Northern Franchise:lol:
 

pemma

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You just have to believe shooters sales pitch, "these are new trains, no honest they really are", the fact they look suspiciously like underground I remember being introduced when I was a teenager is purely incidental:rolleyes:

They look like the older District Line trains I travelled on in 2015. ;)
 

mushroomchow

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We've had this discussion in a speculative sense before, but presumably that Welsh proposal will be with regards to the Valleys lines?

It's a climb up and a coast down most of them, so I'm curious to know if VivaRail have been developing regenerative braking into their battery unit. Seems like a great potential testbed for the concept.

Lots of interesting tidbits to take away from that announcement from the Welsh Assembly:
  • They appear to have lost patience with Porterbrook - 769s (identified as coming online as of now, though we all know that is not the case) are earmarked for withdrawal as soon as 2022, assuming they are ever even procured. Biting the bullet and including 230s in those plans must surely be an acknowledgement of that.
  • On that note, the 230s look to be in the medium term thinking at least, surviving to the end of the identified period (albeit by then in the cascade pool).
  • Mk 4 coaching stock identified for the Assembly trains as opposed to Mk 3 upgrades or Mk. 5 stock.
  • Non-specific "metro vehicles" due from 2021 - are there tram / S-Bahn schemes planned in any welsh cities?
 

Domh245

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We've had this discussion in a speculative sense before, but presumably that Welsh proposal will be with regards to the Valleys lines?

It's a climb up and a coast down most of them, so I'm curious to know if VivaRail have been developing regenerative braking into their battery unit. Seems like a great potential testbed for the concept.

Lots of interesting tidbits to take away from that announcement from the Welsh Assembly:
  • They appear to have lost patience with Porterbrook - 769s (identified as coming online as of now, though we all know that is not the case) are earmarked for withdrawal as soon as 2022, assuming they are ever even procured. Biting the bullet and including 230s in those plans must surely be an acknowledgement of that.
  • On that note, the 230s look to be in the medium term thinking at least, surviving to the end of the identified period (albeit by then in the cascade pool).
  • Mk 4 coaching stock identified for the Assembly trains as opposed to Mk 3 upgrades or Mk. 5 stock.
  • Non-specific "metro vehicles" due from 2021 - are there tram / S-Bahn schemes planned in any welsh cities?

The Valleys are getting brand new TramTrains and Stadler Tri-modes, it seems that the 230s will end up in North Wales. The 769s and 230s come into service at similar times - it is somewhat of an "all hands to the pump" effort to get the pacers gone by December 2019, the 769s are very much a key part of it but are only a stop gap.

As discussed to great depth in the South Wales Metro thread and the Keolis Amey Wales - future rolling stock thread, there is going to be a big upgrade to the valley lines, combining tram-trains and stadler FLIRT tri-modes. My supposition is that the tram trains are also a stadler product (citylink)
 
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