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Northern's Problems in the North West

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Shaw S Hunter

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The one I seen had a total number of lines not equal to a multiple of 6. However if you removed the 5 vacancies that actually would be a multiple of 6.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, that is contrary to what you're saying.

That sounds like the additional 5 lines are to generate a rostering requirement to cover the training, ie they're quasi turns. As I said with a RDW agreement in place there would be a reasonable chance of getting everything covered.
 
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muz379

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2: that the heroes of the hour are the platform staff who have to face the justifiable passenger anger. They are probably amongst the lowest people on the railway. I have little sympathy with the guards, who strike against the travelling public for their own self interest, and the drivers who are to blame to whatever extent for the RDW problem.
Seperate the guards dispute from the day to day disruption for a minute . I have seen a great number of my guard and driver colleagues this last week who have actually shown a great deal of sympathy with passengers and gone above and beyond . ive known people volunteer to stay on extra to run a service that would otherwise have been cancelled because no relief turned up .Ive known colleagues ring control to update them that a driver and guard are both present and so unless control have any pressing reason could a service be reinstated . And ive known colleagues argue with control to get passengers alternative transport when it is obvious that there is going to be no service for a few hours . Its clear from your comments about the lack of sympathy for drivers who you suspect as being to blame for the chaos that you have no idea what you are going on about . Id have every sympathy with anyone in any job getting abuse by customers for decisions that are out of their hands.
I have written elsewhere (and been riticised for it), but it is time that franchises specified that TOCs should be required to have enough staff to ensure that no overtime or rest day working is necessary.
But would that include a complement of drivers who would otherwise sit spare most of the time and only be utilized when training needs dictate ? In some tocs this could mean loads of drivers being spare to only get used once in 5 years .
Define a shortage.

2 weeks ago I seen a roster for a link with 5 vacancies. That's 1 link at 1 depot.

Maybe you don't call that a shortage - but I don't call it over establishment.
But new drivers are passing out all the time . So whilst there might be 5 vacancies today in two weeks time there could be non and passed out drivers shadowing other link positions .

You have drivers with over 5 years experience not signing all routes in their links...
Quite , there was a rather large training deficit inherited at the start of the franchise , and now there is even more new training that needs to be done . It always astounded me the number of drivers who had been on 5 years plus who still did not sign their full link . I can count the number of guards I know who dont sign all routes and traction in their link on half a hand .
 

furnessvale

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I’ll say this once again. There’s no driver shortage at Northern (central and west company regions). There’s huge training backlog, and I’m not talking here about Preston-Blackpool training.

You have drivers with over 5 years experience not signing all routes in their links...

Quite , there was a rather large training deficit inherited at the start of the franchise , and now there is even more new training that needs to be done . It always astounded me the number of drivers who had been on 5 years plus who still did not sign their full link . I can count the number of guards I know who dont sign all routes and traction in their link on half a hand .
I cannot help but wonder, exactly what all these drivers were doing for 6 months when the Blackpool line was shut?

Yes, they couldn't learn the new Blackpool line until it was ready, but surely there should be no backlog of drivers not knowing other routes?
 

josh-j

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But would that include a complement of drivers who would otherwise sit spare most of the time and only be utilized when training needs dictate ? In some tocs this could mean loads of drivers being spare to only get used once in 5 years.

Wouldn't the sensible arrangement to be to have enough drivers to cover normal working without overtime, and cover exceptional circumstances such as large amounts of training through use of overtime?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Quite , there was a rather large training deficit inherited at the start of the franchise , and now there is even more new training that needs to be done . It always astounded me the number of drivers who had been on 5 years plus who still did not sign their full link . I can count the number of guards I know who dont sign all routes and traction in their link on half a hand .

That comment illustrates very nicely the huge difference in complexity between the traction and route knowledge required by drivers compared to that needed by guards. I do wonder whether many people, including some within the industry, realise the significance of this.

I cannot help but wonder, exactly what all these drivers were doing for 6 months when the Blackpool line was shut?

Yes, they couldn't learn the new Blackpool line until it was ready, but surely there should be no backlog of drivers not knowing other routes?

Given that it was Northern who simply allowed the RDW agreement to lapse it seems pretty clear how seriously management view that situation.
 

muz379

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Wouldn't the sensible arrangement to be to have enough drivers to cover normal working without overtime, and cover exceptional circumstances such as large amounts of training through use of overtime?
That is exactly what I am trying to get at . It is simply not reasonable to have enough drivers to never need to rely on RDW . But it should be the case that RDW is kept to cover drivers released for training only .

That comment illustrates very nicely the huge difference in complexity between the traction and route knowledge required by drivers compared to that needed by guards. I do wonder whether many people, including some within the industry, realise the significance of this.
I appreciate that . And in the case of newly passed out drivers it is understandable why they are limited to the number of routes they should learn . However surely something is wrong when you have drivers who have been on 5 years + who dont sign all routes and traction in their link .
It would be understandable if it was a small number who had transferred depots or changed links and did not sign the routes in their new depot/link . but its not
 

Tractor2018

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That sounds like the additional 5 lines are to generate a rostering requirement to cover the training, ie they're quasi turns.

Ok.

As I said with a RDW agreement in place there would be a reasonable chance of getting everything covered.

If RDW is required for covering jobs, doesn't that suggest the depots aren't over establishment, unless you mean to get training completed?
 

Tractor2018

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new drivers are passing out all the time . So whilst there might be 5 vacancies today in two weeks time there could be non and passed out drivers shadowing other link positions .

They're still recruiting for that link though.

Edit: Shaw has explained though.
 

jizzer

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There's obvious logic in what you're saying, the only downside being that all crews working the route would need to be familiar with its entirety, which I presume at the moment they're not. And don't forget that Crewe, Manchester Airport and Macclesfield aren't currently Northern depots, so it wouldn't be particularly convenient (or even acceptable?) for crews to take their break there.

Crewe,MIA and Macclesfield don't have to be northern depots. They are just final destinations where the train has 10 mins or so and then begins the return journey. As you say Liverpool-crewe-piccadilly, Driver break and then do the same journey in reverse back to liverpool is 6 plus hours driving which is quite productive. Same as Blackpool to MIA is 1hr 40 min. 10 min turnround and back to Blackpool. Driver has a break and does it again. Again 6 hrs 40 mins driving which is quite productive. Guard and driver on the same trips and no relieving at Oxford Road. I think northern have made a mistake in running so many services through oxford road to piccadilly and beyond.
 

furnessvale

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I cannot help but wonder, exactly what all these drivers were doing for 6 months when the Blackpool line was shut?

Yes, they couldn't learn the new Blackpool line until it was ready, but surely there should be no backlog of drivers not knowing other routes?
Given that it was Northern who simply allowed the RDW agreement to lapse it seems pretty clear how seriously management view that situation.
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the RDW agreement (or lapse of one), I cannot see the link between that and what drivers were doing on ordinary shifts where they would have been driving to Blackpool but didn't because the line was shut.
 

muz379

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Crewe,MIA and Macclesfield don't have to be northern depots. They are just final destinations where the train has 10 mins or so and then begins the return journey. As you say Liverpool-crewe-piccadilly, Driver break and then do the same journey in reverse back to liverpool is 6 plus hours driving which is quite productive. Same as Blackpool to MIA is 1hr 40 min. 10 min turnround and back to Blackpool. Driver has a break and does it again. Again 6 hrs 40 mins driving which is quite productive. Guard and driver on the same trips and no relieving at Oxford Road. I think northern have made a mistake in running so many services through oxford road to piccadilly and beyond.
Alternatively though playing devils advocate here , if 1 person at liverpool calls in sick at the last minute , a full service between liverpool and crew will be cancelled effecting essentially 2 sets of passengers . Whereas if the liverpool driver is in but the picadilly man is sick currently you can at least operate part of the service . Of course at the moment if the Liverpool driver calls sick its still likely a full service could be cancelled unless a unit can be stepped up in mcr to operate the manc/crew part .

At present this would also require adding more training adding to the already massive amounts to be able to run the services like this

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the RDW agreement (or lapse of one), I cannot see the link between that and what drivers were doing on ordinary shifts where they would have been driving to Blackpool but didn't because the line was shut.
Blackpool blockade did not really free up that many drivers at blackpool given the increased time allowance to and from Preston in a taxi , and given that much of their work still ran just between preston and whatever destination the services normally had .
 

jizzer

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Alternatively though playing devils advocate here , if 1 person at liverpool calls in sick at the last minute , a full service between liverpool and crew will be cancelled effecting essentially 2 sets of passengers . Whereas if the liverpool driver is in but the picadilly man is sick currently you can at least operate part of the service . Of course at the moment if the Liverpool driver calls sick its still likely a full service could be cancelled unless a unit can be stepped up in mcr to operate the manc/crew part .



At present this would also require adding more training adding to the already massive amounts to be able to run the services like this

I can see your logic in part running a service but what would happen is that the service gets to Oxford Road and blocks up a platform.

I don't believe northern quite grasped the amount of training that needed to be done when they bid for the franchise. The Preston Blackpool route refreshing was a farce with 400 plus driver's requiring 5 trips (ASLEF would not agree training unless driver's did 5 trips) to route refresh. It probably is no more than 7 trips to learn the route if you had never set eyes on the place!!!
 

muz379

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I can see your logic in part running a service but what would happen is that the service gets to Oxford Road and blocks up a platform.
That is the risk yes , but can easily be remedied by having ferry drivers on hand at Oxford road who can move a unit at short notice .Or closer monitoring by shift managers and control so that if there is no driver available to run the service to and from crew at least have a Manchester driver available to relieve the Liverpool driver and get the unit out of Oxford road and out of the way . Maybe run it to the airport and turn it there .
I don't believe northern quite grasped the amount of training that needed to be done when they bid for the franchise. The Preston Blackpool route refreshing was a farce with 400 plus driver's requiring 5 trips (ASLEF would not agree training unless driver's did 5 trips) to route refresh. It probably is no more than 7 trips to learn the route if you had never set eyes on the place!!!
To be fair I think it is reasonable to ask for such number of trips given drivers from other depots had not driven past Preston for approaching 6 months and in some cases it had no doubt even exceeded 6 months . And with the extent of the changes to signalling at Kirkham and BPN .With planning it should be possible to get through the trips in one day which is the minimum amount a driver would have to be released for anyway
 

woodmally

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So forgive me if this has already been answered somewhere. But my understanding is this is just a replacement of track and infrastructure. The route hasnt changed at all. So why do drivers need training. They surely already have an understanding of the route points and signalling system. Its like a bus driver being trained again following road resurfacing. Or am I getting this wrong?
 

jizzer

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To be fair I think it is reasonable to ask for such number of trips given drivers from other depots had not driven past Preston for approaching 6 months and in some cases it had no doubt even exceeded 6 months . And with the extent of the changes to signalling at Kirkham and BPN .With planning it should be possible to get through the trips in one day which is the minimum amount a driver would have to be released for anyway

People have told me that some driver's did 2 trips and were happy with that but they had to do another 3 trips regardless.

What you have to take in to account is that most depots couldn't release more that 4 or so driver's a day to route refresh without it affecting the train plan. And when you release a driver off his booked link work they are not allowed to work more than 7 hrs on that day. So if a Victoria driver goes to Preston does 2 trips and then back to Victoria. It would take the driver 3 days to complete the route refresh. A Buxton driver can only do 1 trip and then travail back to Buxton in the 7 hrs allowed taking 5 days to complete the refresh. And this is before actually getting in the cab. Can't have more than 3 road learners in a cab and if a 150/2 or 156 it would be 2 max. It woulnt be much different for Leeds driver's. It's the detail in trying to sort out 400 plus driver's when you realise the logistical nightmare and how many days it takes for just one driver.
 

Eccles1983

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So forgive me if this has already been answered somewhere. But my understanding is this is just a replacement of track and infrastructure. The route hasnt changed at all. So why do drivers need training. They surely already have an understanding of the route points and signalling system. Its like a bus driver being trained again following road resurfacing. Or am I getting this wrong?

Completely wrong.

The route has changed, as you can be routed incorrectly now into a certain platform and be utterly knackered.

The line speeds have changed, the entire shunting process at Blackpool has changed - you can block the entire station if you dont know what you are doing or where you are meant to go.

Added to that is the electric trains require different stopping distances to diesels, and new signalling means that you could be asked to stop somewhere you never have been. Without the route refresh/training you are increasing the risk of an incident tenfold.

Driving trains is a million miles away from a bus (maybe not in body)
 

muz379

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So forgive me if this has already been answered somewhere. But my understanding is this is just a replacement of track and infrastructure. The route hasnt changed at all. So why do drivers need training. They surely already have an understanding of the route points and signalling system. Its like a bus driver being trained again following road resurfacing. Or am I getting this wrong?
There has been change to signalling arrangements , signals have moved . one station has drastically changed with new platforms and opportunities to be wrong routed , others have had minor changes and Blackpool north has also changed massively .

Slight changes can be covered in a brief like was the case when signals between Salford crescent and Bolton got relocated or with ashton moss works . But the changes between Kirkham and Blackpool are pretty substantial .

The Bus driver analogy is rather weak IMO . A bus driver as a holder of a licence issued by the DVLA and driver of a vehicle driven by line of sight should be able to drive a bus on any highway so would not need a route briefing for changed locations or layouts of bus stops or junction layout changes . Trains are not driven on line of sight under normal operation .

People have told me that some driver's did 2 trips and were happy with that but they had to do another 3 trips regardless.

What you have to take in to account is that most depots couldn't release more that 4 or so driver's a day to route refresh without it affecting the train plan. And when you release a driver off his booked link work they are not allowed to work more than 7 hrs on that day. So if a Victoria driver goes to Preston does 2 trips and then back to Victoria. It would take the driver 3 days to complete the route refresh. A Buxton driver can only do 1 trip and then travail back to Buxton in the 7 hrs allowed taking 5 days to complete the refresh. And this is before actually getting in the cab. Can't have more than 3 road learners in a cab and if a 150/2 or 156 it would be 2 max. It woulnt be much different for Leeds driver's. It's the detail in trying to sort out 400 plus driver's when you realise the logistical nightmare and how many days it takes for just one driver.
I appreciate some drivers would be confident after 2, others would want the full five that is the nature of an operation carried out by humans .

As for drivers being released for multiple days . Yes the more remote depots would need multiple days but they would also have less Blackpool work to cover so should be less of a priority . I was of the understanding that drivers released are kept to their booked hours for the day whatever they are unless their start times are altered. I also understand that it was made clear that it would be 2 in the cab at most but there was supposed to be multiple route learning trains running . And it could have been handled in one day at the likes of vic, liverpool and wigan if overtime had been offered locally . Granted some drivers would have refused the OT and insisted on keeping to booked hours but others would have complied . You are right It is a logistical nightmare , but when you bid for a train operating franchise you are saying that you are prepared and equipped to deal with tough logistical problems .
 

TheGarner

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Does anyone know how many more trains go through P13/14 at Piccadilly compared to the old timetable changes? I travel home to Warrington from Piccadilly from around 4:30 on wards and I don't think I have seen any trains actually be on time since the change. Just delays across the board and the platform being heavily crowded of passengers.
 

Starmill

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I was delayed by exactly an hour this afternoon on my journey to Manchester and by exactly two hours this evening on my way home. Not good.
 

Bovverboy

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A Buxton driver can only do 1 trip and then travail back to Buxton in the 7 hrs allowed taking 5 days to complete the refresh.

If a driver is rostered to work Buxton - Blackpool - Buxton, is it not permissible for him to be accompanied by a trainer over the section Preston - Blackpool - Preston?
 

jayah

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People have told me that some driver's did 2 trips and were happy with that but they had to do another 3 trips regardless.

What you have to take in to account is that most depots couldn't release more that 4 or so driver's a day to route refresh without it affecting the train plan. And when you release a driver off his booked link work they are not allowed to work more than 7 hrs on that day. So if a Victoria driver goes to Preston does 2 trips and then back to Victoria. It would take the driver 3 days to complete the route refresh. A Buxton driver can only do 1 trip and then travail back to Buxton in the 7 hrs allowed taking 5 days to complete the refresh. And this is before actually getting in the cab. Can't have more than 3 road learners in a cab and if a 150/2 or 156 it would be 2 max. It woulnt be much different for Leeds driver's. It's the detail in trying to sort out 400 plus driver's when you realise the logistical nightmare and how many days it takes for just one driver.
Presumably the ridiculous 7hr rule is because of the ridiculous 35hr week they work?

400 drivers? Northern has 5,500 employees so probably around 1,500 drivers? Do a quarter of them really go to Blackpool North given there are 4 return trips an hour to the place, going nowhere more exotic than Liverpool?

Why would a driver at Buxton of all places which has no services beyond Manchester be going there at all?
 

Bovverboy

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Why would a driver at Buxton of all places which has no services beyond Manchester be going there at all?

That's something I wasn't aware of, i.e. there are no longer any through services from Buxton to points beyond Manchester.
So why, indeed, does a Buxton driver need to be familiar with Preston - Blackpool?
 

WCMLaddict

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Depots that sign Blackpool are: Blackpool, Blackburn, Leeds, Liverpool(?), Manchester Victoria, Wigan.
I don’t think Piccadilly do.

Average driver’s turn on west conditions is supposed to be 8h45m or as close to this as possible.
7h training day comes from separate agreement.
 

jayah

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Depots that sign Blackpool are: Blackpool, Blackburn, Leeds, Liverpool(?), Manchester Victoria, Wigan.
I don’t think Piccadilly do.

Average driver’s turn on west conditions is supposed to be 8h45m or as close to this as possible.
7h training day comes from separate agreement.
Sounds like a daft agreement. If it was a rostered rest day it would be extra money? Keep the extra rest days from the 8hr45 turns and work a max 7hr. Sounds like having your cake and eating it.
 

WCMLaddict

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It’s not daft but I won’t go into the reasoning of it and it’s ins and outs.

Rest day is rest day, training day is training day. Different things
 

scrapy

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Depots that sign Blackpool are: Blackpool, Blackburn, Leeds, Liverpool(?), Manchester Victoria, Wigan.
I don’t think Piccadilly do.

Average driver’s turn on west conditions is supposed to be 8h45m or as close to this as possible.
7h training day comes from separate agreement.
Yes Liverpool do as do Buxton and I think ex TPE Barrow do. Piccadilly drivers only go to Preston.
 

jayah

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Yes Liverpool do as do Buxton and I think ex TPE Barrow do. Piccadilly drivers only go to Preston.

So despite half the services at Blackpool North going to Piccadilly, nobody at Piccadilly signs the route? Neither Leeds nor Blackburn have any services there either. The whole operation sounds like a mess before even considering why Barrow might be involved.
 

jayah

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It’s not daft but I won’t go into the reasoning of it and it’s ins and outs.

Rest day is rest day, training day is training day. Different things

A day is a day.
If 8hr45 is contracted and rostered, it should be swapped for 8hr45. Another daft agreement along with the nonsense of people going 2hr30 from Leeds to Blackpool to sign a route that has no trains from their depot.
 

northernchris

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Northern are now putting together a revised timetable for tomorrow for the Liverpool area, but don't expect the times to be released until 4pm today. Is this in relation to the driver issues and multiple events across Liverpool which may affect driver availability?
 
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