Transgender sporting question

randyrippley · 26 May 2018

Would you want a 17-stone (or heavier) ex-male playing in a women's rugby team?
You have the risk of serious injury.
However if the game was darts or snooker it really wouldn't matter

RailUK Forums

amateur · 27 May 2018

scott118 said:
Caster Semenya - https://www.outsideonline.com/2198906/caster-semenya-debate

not quite trans gender, however..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/44268583

South Africa's Caster Semenya set the year's best time in the 800m at the Diamond League meeting in Eugene as American sprinter Christian Coleman suffered a surprise defeat in the 100m.

Semenya claimed victory in a time of one minute 55.91 seconds.

To me, the person in the photo looks male.

Bromley boy · 27 May 2018

amateur said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/44268583

To me, the person in the photo looks male.

Yes indeed.

Having googled that athlete it seems likely it is a case of a biological male competing as a woman, but the whole thing has been hushed up in part due to political correctness and pressure from SA.

It makes a mockery of the idea of womens’ competitive sport, really, if biological men can declare themselves female and compete with them, thereby benefiting from an innate competitive advantage.

Bromley boy · 27 May 2018

jcollins said:
An interesting observation is Usain Bolt holds the fastest record for men's 100m in 2009, beating a record set by Asafa Powell in 2008, who himself beat a record set in 1999 by Maurice Green. On the other hand Florence Griffith Joyner has held the women's record since 1988. Why are the men's records constantly being beaten while women's aren't? Another observation is many women taller than Florence Griffith Joyner have failed to beat her, while Bolt is one of the tallest ever sprinters.

How many sports are there were the outright records have ever been held by women?

The answer to that question will tell you how many female sporting champions we will be left with if women and men are no longer allowed compete under their seperate biological categories.

EM2 · 27 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
It makes a mockery of the idea of womens’ competitive sport, really, if biological men can declare themselves female and compete with them, thereby benefiting from an innate competitive advantage.

Explain Renee Richards then:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards#Women's_singles
Or cyclist Natalie Van Gogh: http://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=46516#uitslagen
Golfer Mianne Bagger: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mianne_Bagger
Another golfer, Lana Lawless: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lana_Lawless
And another, Bobbi Lancaster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobbi_Lancaster#Golf_career

If being a biological male is such a massive advantage, how come these athletes didn't win all the tournaments after transitioning?

MMA fighter Fallon Fox has won most of her fights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox#Mixed_martial_arts_record but Eric Vilain, the director of the Institute For Society And Genetics at UCLA, states that "Male to female transsexuals have significantly less muscle strength and bone density, and higher fat mass, than males".

EM2 · 27 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
Having googled that athlete it seems likely it is a case of a biological male competing as a woman, but the whole thing has been hushed up in part due to political correctness and pressure from SA.

Semenya has undergone sex verification tests ordered by the IAAF, and has been cleared to compete as a woman. She does have higher than usual levels of testosterone but that is not unique among female athletes (see here: http://sportsscientists.com/2017/07...-intersex-athletes-will-iaaf-evidence-enough/ )

Bromley boy · 27 May 2018

EM2 said:
Explain Renee Richards then:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards#Women's_singles
Or cyclist Natalie Van Gogh: http://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=46516#uitslagen
Golfer Mianne Bagger: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mianne_Bagger
Another golfer, Lana Lawless: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lana_Lawless
And another, Bobbi Lancaster: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobbi_Lancaster#Golf_career

If being a biological male is such a massive advantage, how come these athletes didn't win all the tournaments after transitioning?

MMA fighter Fallon Fox has won most of her fights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox#Mixed_martial_arts_record but Eric Vilain, the director of the Institute For Society And Genetics at UCLA, states that "Male to female transsexuals have significantly less muscle strength and bone density, and higher fat mass, than males".

I’ll ask you the same question I asked @jcollins. How many sports are there where outright records have been held by women?

Unless you expect female athletes to simply accept that they will have to compete with biological males, who generally have an innate physical advantage?

Why should the entire rulebook be rewritten to accommodate a tiny minority?

Bromley boy · 27 May 2018

EM2 said:
Semenya has undergone sex verification tests ordered by the IAAF, and has been cleared to compete as a woman. She does have higher than usual levels of testosterone but that is not unique among female athletes (see here: http://sportsscientists.com/2017/07...-intersex-athletes-will-iaaf-evidence-enough/ )

Would cis female athletes be permitted to take drugs to enhance their testosterone levels?

EM2 · 27 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
I’ll ask you the same question I asked @jcollins. How many sports are there where outright records have been held by women?

Just off the top of my head, I know that Beryl Burton held the outright 12-hour time trail record in cycling That was in 1967, and wasn't beaten by a man for two years.

EM2 · 27 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
Would cis female athletes be permitted to take drugs to enhance their testosterone levels?

No, because artificial testosterone is a banned substance.

Bromley boy · 27 May 2018

EM2 said:
Just off the top of my head, I know that Beryl Burton held the outright 12-hour time trail record in cycling That was in 1967, and wasn't beaten by a man for two years.

One in 1967 is all you can think of. Isn’t that quite telling?

EM2 said:
No, because artificial testosterone is a banned substance.

Do you accept, then, that bilological males generally have an inherent advantage in most sports?

I would suggest trans athletes should compete in the category of their own biological sex, or a seperate category of their own.

It is patently ridiculous to pretend that males competing as females is in any way in the spirit of fair competition.

EM2 · 27 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
One in 1967 is all you can think of. Isn’t that quite telling?

I said that it's off the top of my head. I only know that quickly because Burton is someone I greatly admire. I'm sure if I devoted time and effort I could find some more.

Do you accept, then, that bilological males generally have an inherent advantage in most sports?

Yes.

I would suggest trans athletes should compete in the category of their own biological sex, or a seperate category of their own.

Why? It's not proven that they have any advantage. Maybe that's why of the small number of trans women athletes competing at the highest level, none have shown themselves to be consistently superior to cis competitors

It is patently ridiculous to pretend that males competing as females is in any way in the spirit of fair competition.

Yet trans women are frequently being beaten in competition by cis women.

tony_mac · 27 May 2018

EM2 said:
Semenya has undergone sex verification tests ordered by the IAAF, and has been cleared to compete as a woman. She does have higher than usual levels of testosterone but that is not unique among female athletes (see here: http://sportsscientists.com/2017/07...-intersex-athletes-will-iaaf-evidence-enough/ )

There is a little more to this story - hyperandrogenous athletes were required, for a time, to limit their testosterone. This was suspended in 2015 due to legal action while a study into the fairness of the rule was conducted.
Following the IAAF study, the rule will be reinstated for certain events later this year.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/43890575
i.e., Semenya will no longer be able to compete in international women's competitions unless she lowers her testosterone level.
It obviously caused numerous comments when all 3 olympic medalists in the 800m were hyperandrogenous, and the IAAF obviously felt like it needed to do something.

Not that this actually involved transgender athletes.

I think there are cases where there can be an unfair advantage, and I think they can be looked at, based on the individual situation, in a proportionate way.
For the 99%+ of transgender people who are not professional athletes, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to take part in a park run without outing themselves.

pemma · 27 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
I’ll ask you the same question I asked @jcollins. How many sports are there where outright records have been held by women?

Unless you expect female athletes to simply accept that they will have to compete with biological males, who generally have an innate physical advantage?

Why should the entire rulebook be rewritten to accommodate a tiny minority?

Women only events generally started because historically women weren't allowed to compete in sports.

I accept many records aren't held by women but do women have a disadvantage because they are women or because on average they are smaller and lighter? If that's the case would splitting participants by height and/or weight instead of gender work better?

furnessvale · 27 May 2018

jcollins said:
Women only events generally started because historically women weren't allowed to compete in sports.

I accept many records aren't held by women but do women have a disadvantage because they are women or because on average they are smaller and lighter? If that's the case would splitting participants by height and/or weight instead of gender work better?

So taking the example of tennis, smaller and/or lighter competitors would only have to complete 3 sets whereas the heavier and/or taller ones would do 5.

That could possibly put the Williams sisters in the 5 set category against Federer etc. Can't see that going down well!

Bromley boy · 27 May 2018

EM2 said:
Yes.

Why? It's not proven that they have any advantage. Maybe that's why of the small number of trans women athletes competing at the highest level, none have shown themselves to be consistently superior to cis competitors

Yet trans women are frequently being beaten in competition by cis women

But do you not see how your first two statements above are contradictory?

If you accept that biological men have an innate advantage over biological women, it follows that you must also accept trans women have an advantage over biological women - since trans women are themselves biological men (with some cosmetic surgery and some hormones).

Remember also that we are talking here about an average. The fact some biological women would outperform some biological men is neither here nor there.

Bromley boy · 27 May 2018

jcollins said:
Women only events generally started because historically women weren't allowed to compete in sports.

I accept many records aren't held by women but do women have a disadvantage because they are women or because on average they are smaller and lighter? If that's the case would splitting participants by height and/or weight instead of gender work better?

I’m not sure your first statement is entirely true, although I admit I don’t really know enough about the subject to comment.

Re the second comment, I believe the point was made earlier in the thread that the aim of sport isn't to create an entirely level playing field, it is to create healthy competition. The fact some athletes of either sex are better suited to some sports than others is just a fact of life - the idea isn’t to create equality of outcome.

However distinguishing between men and women still makes sense because the best male athletes will *almost* always outperform the best female athletes, to the point where having males competing directly with females would largely eliminate any real competition.

Note also that sports which divide competitors by weight (I know boxing does. Are there any others?) still distinguish between men and women.

amateur · 27 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
Yes indeed.

Having googled that athlete it seems likely it is a case of a biological male competing as a woman, but the whole thing has been hushed up in part due to political correctness and pressure from SA.

It makes a mockery of the idea of womens’ competitive sport, really, if biological men can declare themselves female and compete with them, thereby benefiting from an innate competitive advantage.

I'm sure the biological anatomy in the Nether regions suggests the person is biologically female.

EM2 · 27 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
But do you not see how your first two statements above are contradictory?

But they aren't. My acceptance of something does not make it proven.
I accept that there is no God, but it has not been proven. I accept that the human race isn't the only life in the Universe, but it has not been proven.

Remember also that we are talking here about an average. The fact some biological women would outperform some biological women is neither here nor there.

On average, cis sportswomen outperform trans sportswomen. There are no trans women that are champions or record holders in their chosen sport, as far as I can find.

Bromley boy · 27 May 2018

EM2 said:
But they aren't. My acceptance of something does not make it proven.
I accept that there is no God, but it has not been proven. I accept that the human race isn't the only life in the Universe, but it has not been proven.

On average, cis sportswomen outperform trans sportswomen. There are no trans women that are champions or record holders in their chosen sport, as far as I can find.

But we aren’t talking about proving something that cannot ever be proven.

Any school child could tell you that boys tend to be bigger and stronger than girls;

Any quick perusal of sports records reveals that the vast majority of these records are held by men;

Trans women are, in fact, biological men.

If each of those statements are true then it logically follows that trans women competing against cis women have an innate advantage, by virtue of the fact they are actually biologically male.

Why there are no champions (although the South African individual discussed earlier in this thread would appear to be a champion) may be down to the fact a vanishingly small % of athletes is transgender.

You have not addressed my other point - do you expect cis female athletes to simply accept they must compete with trans women (biological men)? The feminism lobby is rather larger than the trans rights lobby!

tony_mac · 27 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
(although the South African individual discussed earlier in this thread would appear to be a champion)

She is not transgender.

EM2 · 27 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
Trans women are, in fact, biological men.

Even though trans women (that have fully transitioned) have no testosterone (even less than cis women).

Why there are no champions (although the South African individual discussed earlier in this thread would appear to be a champion)

She is not transgender.

may be down to the fact a vanishingly small % of athletes is transgender.

But if they had an innate advantage, they would surely win? At least some of the time!

You have not addressed my other point - do you expect cis female athletes to simply accept they must compete with trans women (biological men)? The feminism lobby is rather larger than the trans rights lobby!

Yes. The same as cis men compete with trans men.

amateur · 27 May 2018

May we should just have a new and separate category for trans people in sport.

Male
Female
TransMen and
Trans women

If you have transitioned, sometime during your adult life, then you compete in the latter 2 category accordingly

Bromley boy · 27 May 2018

EM2 said:
Even though trans women (that have fully transitioned) have no testosterone (even less than cis women).

But testosterone is only one advantage. Bone density, height, muscle mass and a whole plethora of other factors combine, especially at elite level where a tiny difference can make the difference between winning and losing).

EM2 said:
She is not transgender.

I wouldn’t be able to know based on the above articles. It all sounds rather ambiguous. From what I skim read earlier various tests have been completed but the results hushed up.

EM2 said:
But if they had an innate advantage, they would surely win? At least some of the time!

I’m not sure that they don’t. I’m not sure how you are reaching that conclusion, which is presumably based on a very small sample size.

EM2 said:
Yes. The same as cis men compete with trans men.

Do you mean cis men competing with trans “men” who are actually women?

How do these trans “men” fair against cis men?

Bromley boy · 27 May 2018

amateur said:
May we should just have a new and separate category for trans people in sport.

Male
Female
TransMen and
Trans women

If you have transitioned, sometime during your adult life, then you compete in the latter 2 category accordingly

That would seem like the best solution all round.

Much like the Paralympics - take significant differences into account and group appropriately to create fair competition.

amateur · 27 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
That would seem like the best solution all round.

Much like the Paralympics - take significant differences into account and group appropriately to create fair competition.

And like the paralympics, we would call it the translympic

tony_mac · 27 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
I wouldn’t be able to know based on the above articles. If all sounds rather ambiguous. From what I skim read earlier various tests have been completed but the results hushed up.

Then what you have been 'reading' is complete nonsense. There is probably nobody else who has had as much testing and as much public scrutiny -and she is the way she was born.
But, I think you will believe whatever you want to believe, and aren't interested that it might not actually be true.

Bromley boy · 27 May 2018

tony_mac said:
Then what you have been 'reading' is complete nonsense. There is probably nobody else who has had as much testing and as much public scrutiny -and she is the way she was born.
But, I think you will believe whatever you want to believe, and aren't interested that it might not actually be true.

So what I read above about the rules being changed so that she soon won’t be allowed to compete based on testosterone giving her an unfair advantage is nonsense, is it?

(I see you posted that link).

EM2 · 27 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
But testosterone is only one advantage. Bone density, height, muscle mass and a whole plethora of other factors combine, especially at elite level where a tiny difference can make the difference between winning and losing).

And yet it is what the IOC and IAAF base their criteria on.
Let's look at Jillian Bearden:
https://www.denverpost.com/2017/08/07/first-female-transgender-pro-cyclist-colorado-classic-2017/

Less than three years into her transition from Jonathan to Jillian, pro cyclist Jillian Bearden has once again found serenity on her bike. Now, using studies and stats collected during her long career, she’s helping prove that transgender athletes change more than their names, they change their biology.

Bearden has watched her performance ebb since beginning hormone-replacement therapy in 2015. As testosterone fades and estrogen grows, her fastest times on favorite climbs have slipped into what she calls “the gutter.”

It was tough realizing her hard-earned power, developed over more than a decade of elite-level bike racing, was waning.

“I went from 16 minutes to 26, 27, 28 minutes,” she said of her times on her those climbs. “I was like holy … Testosterone gives you this drive, this oomph, and I didn’t have that push. My muscles looked fairly big, but I did not have that push to drive that extra energy.
...
“The testosterone is gone so you have to find a new way to get to the new you and the new me was working on my mental game,” she said. “Now it’s all mental.”

Bearden’s steep decline in performance aligns with the first study of transgender athletes, published in 2015 in the Journal of Sporting Cultures and Identities by medical physicist Joanna Harper, who is advising the IOC on its transgender policies. Harper’s study showed transwomen runners slowed and lost strength as they blocked testosterone and added estrogen.

I’m not sure that they don’t. I’m not sure how you are reaching that conclusion, which is presumably based on a very small sample size.

I did multiple searches for trans, women, sport, record, champion, and various combinations thereof, as well as looked at the Wikipedia page for transgender sportspersons, then did searches for all the ones identified as trans women.
Nothing came up.

Do you mean cis men competing with trans “men” who are actually women?

Were women, not are.

How do these trans “men” fair against cis men?

At the moment, the sample is infinitesimally small to be able to compare, as there doesn't appear to be any trans men at the top level of any sport.

tony_mac · 27 May 2018

Bromley boy said:
So what I read above about the rules being changed so that she soon won’t be allowed to compete based on testosterone giving her an unfair advantage is nonsense, is it?

That doesn't relate to your nonsense claim that she is/was a man and everything has been hushed up.
The real situation is extremely well reported.

Transgender sporting question

Established Member

RailUK Forums

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member