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Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

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Hadders

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I grew up in London for 18 years and commuted to school on the District line for a good 8 years*, so I think I do have at least rough idea of what London commuting is like (A: awful, and I'll be more than glad if I never have to do it again)

Most District Line stations have an alternative not far away, depending on whether it’s C2C, SWR, Central or Piccadilly Lines etc.

Passengers from places such as Stevenage, Letchworth, Hitchin, etc have no alternative. When our line gets disrupted there’s no alternative.
 
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bramling

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Route Learning has to be done on in-service trains on busy infrastructure - which is what the Thameslink core is, route learning saloons aren't an option. Re your point about every secondman's seat being filled, that isn't necessarily the best way to do it - GTR are still trying to run trains in between the route learning, and filling all of the second seats means fewer drivers actually driving trains. Similarly, not every train is going over useful track for learning - the issues AIUI are mainly GN drivers through the core and down to Rainham - Wimbledon loop services (as an example) are of use to neither.

I would direct you to the London Reconnections article on this debacle, which is in depth and informative. I will pull out a couple of highlights that are relevant to your first point:

"This lack of drivers actually predates the GTR franchise. Both the previous incumbents (First Capital Connect and Govia’s Southern) informed the DfT almost six years ago that the department would need to fund a ramp up in driver recruitment and training to prevent a major driver shortfall. They were informed then that would prevent the services being run as intended both during, and after, the London Bridge rebuild."
...
"Although some of the blame for the above will likely be laid at GTR’s door, to a certain extent they are also victims of issues at the DfT. The biggest indicator of that is perhaps that many of the driver issues can be traced back to the GTR franchise bid having too few drivers specified. Yet this is partially the result of a DfT error in the numbers given to bidders. GTR’s assumptions were based on those numbers."
...

So if the DFT have got it so badly wrong with the relatively simple task of working out how many drivers are needed to run a timetable, why on earth should we believe that anything else to do with this programme will work out as planned? Like whether this timetable will ever operate smoothly on the infrastructure they are gambling on running it upon? The trains were late and have needed costly modifications due to errors of judgement in their specification.

It’s hard to have any confidence in the people behind this programme - it’s hard not to form the impression of a bunch of incompetents who simply don’t know what they are doing.

How about getting the old Thameslink running reliably before spreading the disease? The number of times I’ve seen the concourse at Kings Cross filled with St Albans passengers going to Hatfield suggests there was and is a long way to go even just to achieve that.

Thameslink Programme is now fatally wounded. GN will never see 8tph peak to and from the core.
 
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Bishopstone

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It looks like they've given up on the stopping service to Horsham today.

Saturday was a shuttle between Horsham and Redhill, I believe operated by Southern rather than Thameslink.
Sunday saw a Horsham - London Bridge service operated by Thameslink.
Monday sees the service binned entirely, with the Littlehaven (etc) calls picked-up by Southern's Bognor/Portsmouth/Southampton services.

So three different iterations of an Emergency Timetable, none of which have been confirmed or resourced until about 08.00 on the day concerned, with few services running before that hour.

People asking (via social media) about timetables for next weekend are being advised to check 'on the day'.

In fact, have definitive 'normal' weekend timetables ever been produced for the Thameslink routes? Do we have any idea what the service is supposed to be?
 

bramling

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Saturday was a shuttle between Horsham and Redhill, I believe operated by Southern rather than Thameslink.
Sunday saw a Horsham - London Bridge service operated by Thameslink.
Monday sees the service binned entirely, with the Littlehaven (etc) calls picked-up by Southern's Bognor/Portsmouth/Southampton services.

So three different iterations of an Emergency Timetable, none of which have been confirmed or resourced until about 08.00 on the day concerned, with few services running before that hour.

People asking (via social media) about timetables for next weekend are being advised to check 'on the day'.

In fact, have definitive 'normal' weekend timetables ever been produced for the Thameslink routes? Do we have any idea what the service is supposed to be?

Weekend timetables are in RTTT. However there was never anything on the RailSham2020 website apart from a vague message saying they would be posted soon - which needless to say never happened. More incompetence.
 

bionic

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I think others have probably answered for me but a couple of points:

- if drivers have contracted Sundays they work them or find someone else to work. Sundays are not voluntary.

- TOCs don’t want Sundays to be a normal part of the working week. It will mean they must hire more drivers to meet working time regs. That’s more costs of recruitment, training, facilities, wages, NI and pensions.

- ASLEF wants Sundays in the working week.

- this has all been covered before on this forum. Please don’t try to suggest that drivers sabotage Sunday services. How does the railway manage to run most of its Sunday service if it’s voluntary?

- Route learning is run by the TOC not the union. In my experience they have neither enough personnel to brief or assess route learners, and this is what slows the process down. I’ve found myself in the position of being held up by staff shortages. When you are route learning, the COMPANY takes you off the roster. The driver cannot choose to work his normal trains instead. He may be asked to work on occasion during this time and cannot refuse. He could myself willing to work trains but be unable to do so. And route learning cannot be done for a full shift. The average person can’t take much more in after four-five hours; and some of the work is reading or swotting from a route guide. Furthermore no driver can be forced to accept a route learner in their cab. Some do not like the distraction. Others may not be allowed due to having had some sort of incident or are returning after a bereavement, for example. Or the driver may already have a route learner, a trainee, or be on a ride out with a manager or assessment himself. For all these reasons you will see drivers waiting on platforms for trains, and you may see them having to call it a day. Or they may be turfed our by a manager who wishes to do an assessment. They may be asked to sit behind the cab until the manager is done.

Might I suggest you contemplate that events are not always what you might assume them to be, and are actually occurring in a perfectly normal and justified manner - once you have the facts.

And AGAIN! The unions do not control the “status quo” of keeping the driving grade short staffed. ASLEF wants as near to zero rest day work as possible. It suits the TOC to rely on RDW as I and others have tried to explain to you. Yes, sure there’s plenty of drivers who want RDW, but that’s up to the individual, not the union. If the TOC staffed properly in the first place, it wouldn’t be an issue.

Good to see someone who knows what they are talking about setting the record straight. The hysterical, uninformed union-bashing rhetoric from those who presumably get all their "facts" from the tabloid press and Sky news needs challenging at every step. There are a lot of people living in absolute cloud-cuckoo land when it comes to what they think unions and railway staff are capable of and the reality of what they actually do.

I appreciate that people are very justifiably upset by all of this, but blaming unions and front line railway staff is playing right into the hands of those who are entirely responsible for the whole fiasco.
 

Hadders

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From what I can see no news on what services might run tomorrow.

I need to be at my office near Farringdon for 0830 tomorrow morning.

How early should I get to the station?
 

Domh245

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Most District Line stations have an alternative not far away, depending on whether it’s C2C, SWR, Central or Piccadilly Lines etc.

Passengers from places such as Stevenage, Letchworth, Hitchin, etc have no alternative. When our line gets disrupted there’s no alternative.

Granted, although I was responding to a post accusing me of having no London commuting experience, which is false. The lack of alternative is a real problem, but one that cannot be practically solved - although that said, the GN side stations do have the advantage of a retained level of service into Kings Cross so that if the core goes down there will still be some trains that can they fight their way onto, a luxury that the MML does not enjoy.

So if the DFT have got it so badly wrong with the relatively simple task of working out how many drivers are needed to run a timetable, why on earth should we believe that anything else to do with this programme will work out as planned? Like whether this timetable will ever operate smoothly on the infrastructure they are gambling on running it upon? The trains were late and have needed costly modifications due to errors of judgement in their specification.

It’s hard to have any confidence in the people behind this programme - it’s hard not to form the impression of a bunch of incompetents who simply don’t know what they are doing.

How about getting the old Thameslink running reliably before spreading the disease? The number of times I’ve seen the concourse at Kings Cross filled with St Albans passengers going to Hatfield suggests there was and is a long way to go even just to achieve that.

A not unfair view to take I don't think. However, the basic idea isn't a terrible one, otherwise you would hope that at least one person in the ~30 odd years that it's been around would notice and try to ammend it accordingly. My gut instinct is to wonder if a lot of the problems have arisen because of warring factions in the DfT between those responsible for planning and those responsible for resourcing and financing.
 

bramling

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Granted, although I was responding to a post accusing me of having no London commuting experience, which is false. The lack of alternative is a real problem, but one that cannot be practically solved - although that said, the GN side stations do have the advantage of a retained level of service into Kings Cross so that if the core goes down there will still be some trains that can they fight their way onto, a luxury that the MML does not enjoy.

This is a lot of the problem - under the flawed plans most GN stations *do not* have an alternative to core services - especially off-peak. Many stations would be wholly reliant on a 2tph Thameslink service - and this week has amply shown what that means in reality.

The Midland is bad enough at times, but at least every station has a minimum of 4tph. St Albans, which seems to be the only bastion of warm feeling towards Thameslink (*) has no less than 8tph.

(* actually I know quite a few
people from St Albans and they’re
always slagging it off for being unreliable - so perhaps St Albans isn’t quite as much in love with Thameslink as a couple of people on here would have us believe)
 

700007

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From what I can see no news on what services might run tomorrow.

I need to be at my office near Farringdon for 0830 tomorrow morning.

How early should I get to the station?
As ComUToR said, leave now! Get the delay repay book ready and then buy a brick from a local construction site so that at the next meet the manager event if it isn't delayed due to an operational incident to have random urges to casually throw that brick in their direction....:)
 

ChiefPlanner

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I can assure you that most St Albans passengers have a lurking regard for Thamesllink - as in theory you can often often get on a peak slow starter out of the turnback siding ,or one of the few peak Luton semi fast trains which the good residents of Harpenden ignored , as they snapped up the remaining seats on the fast trains , forcing St Albans passengers (who probably pay more per mile) to stand - but then they have been sold the 20 min commuter dream.

Lived here now for more than 28 years - and even with some periods of paid commuting and a chunk of free travel commuting , it is not a route I would honestly look back on with great memories ...."tolerable" at best with numerous set backs. We tend to forget now the service only to St Pancras when the station box was being done (with the infuriating "travel buddy" slogan to help you on our way , the 2 winters of Govia Thameslink MK1 meltdown in the winters with bad weather and a self inflicted driver overtime ban , making the service more or less unusable , etc etc etc. Oh - and the joy of 4 car peak operation - let alone cost cutting 4 car weekend operation.

Fairly stable of late and the 700's have many attributes , just a real shame that the GN - once a route that surpassed TLK for punctuality etc, has gone into melt down.
 

MikeWM

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So, err, tomorrow - is it the ‘regular’ timetable that they’ll fail to run, or an ‘emergency’ one that will fall apart just as badly? They don’t seem to have said anything either way... And they’ve no more entirely unconnected engineering works to blame (lie about).
 
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I grew up in London for 18 years and commuted to school on the District line for a good 8 years*, so I think I do have at least rough idea of what London commuting is like (A: awful, and I'll be more than glad if I never have to do it again)

I am not convinced however that the situation is as bad as you make out in terms of changing destinations though, trains still run to London from the places you listed and in a number of cases will get people closer to their places of work then Kings Cross or Charring X. Changing times are a nuisance, but at the same time, if we never changed train times we would still be running to the timings of old steam trains - a faster journey from Bedford means an earlier train from every station down the line.

Like I said, people have had plenty of notice about the timetable change, and unlike the North they have been able to see the new timetables for a while so it shouldn't have come as a shock. That isn't to say that the way Thameslink have done it is the right way, but sticking to the status quo in perpetuity is definitely the wrong way.

*I've gone back to London and commuted a few times since leaving for uni as well, if that helps to boost my commuting credentials?



Well, yes. I am not going to defend the implementation of the timetable, because it has been shocking, but running back to the old timetable the second the new one ran into issues isn't a sustainable solution in the long run. Like I said, nothing works out of the box first time, there will always be a need to test and tweak it once you start to actually do stuff with it rather than admire it from afar. Unfortunately timetables are the sort of thing where you can't really test them on a dedicated test track in the Midlands, or distribute to a closed beta testing group. If we reverted back to tried and tested every time there wasn't a good start, we wouldn't have half of the things we do now. One of the things that I often lament is the lack of progress made by those before us in terms of infrastructure and so on - but if they were up against this sort of hostility for everything they did, I can perhaps understand why things are as they are!

I agree that not all change means progress - it is rare that change does mean progress for everyone, but you can't please everyone all the time, there have to be winners and loosers, and the aim is to maximise the number of winners (or potential winners)

It doesn't matter how much notice we were given about the timetable change. What were we expected to do, notice that the train we used to get to work no longer went where we work and move home? The whole timetable is unfit for purpose AND they've screwed up the introduction of it so badly that towns which used to have a regular interval service to/from London have experienced periods of three to five hours with no service. Some people saw what was alleged the be a timetable, but GTR have since torn them all up and it's now Thameslink roulette, turn up and see what train is running. It's a clusterfcuk.

If one more moron goes on about "winners and losers" I think I might mutter something unholy under my breath. What's the point in giving to the winners if the "losers" are the ones losing their jobs and having to arrange additional childcare because Thameslink have arbitrarily decided the 08.17 from XX to YY now leaves at 08.47 from XX and goes to VV via ZZ with a change of trains at FF? There's no point in change without progress.
 

physics34

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Route Learning has to be done on in-service trains on busy infrastructure - which is what the Thameslink core is, route learning saloons aren't an option. Re your point about every secondman's seat being filled, that isn't necessarily the best way to do it - GTR are still trying to run trains in between the route learning, and filling all of the second seats means fewer drivers actually driving trains. Similarly, not every train is going over useful track for learning - the issues AIUI are mainly GN drivers through the core and down to Rainham - Wimbledon loop services (as an example) are of use to neither.

I would direct you to the London Reconnections article on this debacle, which is in depth and informative. I will pull out a couple of highlights that are relevant to your first point:

"This lack of drivers actually predates the GTR franchise. Both the previous incumbents (First Capital Connect and Govia’s Southern) informed the DfT almost six years ago that the department would need to fund a ramp up in driver recruitment and training to prevent a major driver shortfall. They were informed then that would prevent the services being run as intended both during, and after, the London Bridge rebuild."
...
"Although some of the blame for the above will likely be laid at GTR’s door, to a certain extent they are also victims of issues at the DfT. The biggest indicator of that is perhaps that many of the driver issues can be traced back to the GTR franchise bid having too few drivers specified. Yet this is partially the result of a DfT error in the numbers given to bidders. GTR’s assumptions were based on those numbers."
...

Southern drivers who already know the routes south of the river shouldve been given the class 700 conversion course (4 days)... and then maybe london bridge to finsbury park route learning. This couldve been done months and months ago.... and the route learning couldve infact been done years ago, to at least create a cushion while new Thameslink drivers are bring passrd out and trained.
 
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Granted, although I was responding to a post accusing me of having no London commuting experience, which is false. The lack of alternative is a real problem, but one that cannot be practically solved - although that said, the GN side stations do have the advantage of a retained level of service into Kings Cross so that if the core goes down there will still be some trains that can they fight their way onto, a luxury that the MML does not enjoy.



A not unfair view to take I don't think. However, the basic idea isn't a terrible one, otherwise you would hope that at least one person in the ~30 odd years that it's been around would notice and try to ammend it accordingly. My gut instinct is to wonder if a lot of the problems have arisen because of warring factions in the DfT between those responsible for planning and those responsible for resourcing and financing.

Commuting on the District Line is a piece if pi$$ compared to the pain of Thameslink. At least if it goes wrong you could get a bus, or the Picc Line thena bus, or another bus, or the Met Line, then a bus. Try living somewhere only served by Thameslink trains (and their marginally less worse predecessors FCC), then talk to me about the rigours of commuting. We're just not on the same page.

When MML trains called at Luton & Bedford at leat there was a kind of alternative when Thameslink melted down, or in extremis there was GN to Arlesey and a cab the 10 miles to home, but now those options no longer exist.
 

Bishopstone

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Various cancellations have been input to Journey Planner for the AM peak tomorrow, eg 06.13 & 07.45 East Grinstead-Bedford; 06.05 Brighton-Cambridge; 06.22 Brighton-Bedford etc. The reason given in each case is 'operational incident'.
 

bramling

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Southern drivers who already know the routes south of the river shouldve been given the class 700 conversion course (4 days)... and then maybe london bridge to finsbury park route learning. This couldve been done months and months ago.... and the route learning couldve infact been done years ago, to at least create a cushion while new Thameslink drivers are bring passrd out and trained.

The more I think about it the more it's actually unbelievable - a flagship new service in planning for well over a decade which they have attempted to deliver without having the people available and trained to drive the trains. Still, the arrogant "it will work" attitude has well and truly been found out. It's been obvious from day one this would be a shambles, but they've managed to well and truly blow the expectations of shambles out of the water.

No wonder the attitude from some on here in the past has been rather defensive to the point of being over the top.
 

bramling

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If one more moron goes on about "winners and losers" I think I might mutter something unholy under my breath. What's the point in giving to the winners if the "losers" are the ones losing their jobs and having to arrange additional childcare because Thameslink have arbitrarily decided the 08.17 from XX to YY now leaves at 08.47 from XX and goes to VV via ZZ with a change of trains at FF? There's no point in change without progress.

Yes I get utterly sick of hearing about winners and losers. If people want to start messing around with something which is long established and works very well, don't go and mess it up in utterly spectacular style, then expect those who never wanted it and won't benefit from it to somehow sit back and accept it.

In a way I'm glad it's fallen apart within a week - at least people have quite clearly seen it for what it is, a fragile mess designed and implemented by incompetents. At least the political pressure for change can start now, rather than over time as people find their train is late day after day.
 

NorthKent1989

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Been checking trains from Rainham, no cancellations so far, apart from One train in the early afternoon, but watch this space folks I’m not holding out any hopes.

Yes I get utterly sick of hearing about winners and losers. If people want to start messing around with something which is long established and works very well, don't go and mess it up in utterly spectacular style, then expect those who never wanted it and won't benefit from it to somehow sit back and accept it.

In a way I'm glad it's fallen apart within a week - at least people have quite clearly seen it for what it is, a fragile mess designed and implemented by incompetents. At least the political pressure for change can start now, rather than over time as people find their train is late day after day.

I have to say I agree, I think there are more losers than winners in this, especially in the Medway, Cambridge and Peterborough areas, I’m fed up with being told that the benefits will be coming soon but hard to see that when it’s clear there are no benefits!
 

Dmthomson

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Yes I get utterly sick of hearing about winners and losers. If people want to start messing around with something which is long established and works very well, don't go and mess it up in utterly spectacular style, then expect those who never wanted it and won't benefit from it to somehow sit back and accept it

With that argument, they might as well not bothered with Crossrail as long established trains from Greenford won't be able to run to Paddington. I'm enjoying this new Thameslink services (although admittedly when it runs at the moment) at Greenwich. Makes getting to north London a lot easier and when I go to my Nan's as she moved to Doncaster a few years ago.
 

bramling

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Been checking trains from Rainham, no cancellations so far, apart from One train in the early afternoon, but watch this space folks I’m not holding out any hopes.



I have to say I agree, I think there are more losers than winners in this, especially in the Medway, Cambridge and Peterborough areas, I’m fed up with being told that the benefits will be coming soon but hard to see that when it’s clear there are no benefits!

The one that annoys me the post is when we hear "isn't it wonderful, I can go to XX Airport or YY shopping centre without having to change".

I can just about accept that certain people may benefit from not having to change to the Underground at somewhere like King's Cross (although if they're that desperate, why didn't they move to St. Albans?), but I can't tolerate the idea that for journeys people make a couple of times a year everyone else's regular journey should be made inherently unreliable.

Still, a rethink is now inevitable, and we'll be left with a slimmed-down Thameslink service, which should probably suit a lot more people.
 

Bromley boy

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With that argument, they might as well not bothered with Crossrail as long established trains from Greenford won't be able to run to Paddington. I'm enjoying this new Thameslink services (although admittedly when it runs at the moment) at Greenwich. Makes getting to north London a lot easier and when I go to my Nan's as she moved to Doncaster a few years ago.

In all fairness, if you’re based in Greenwich, you wont have been affected by the negative changes others are complaining about here. Specifically the loss of the semi fast Gillingham - Charing Cross service via the North Kent, replaced by an all shacks TL service (or an awkward change at Gravesend or Dartford to a “fast” via the Sidcup which misses out the convenient connections on the North Kent line, most notably the forthcoming Crossrail connection at Abbey Wood).

The fact you personally are unaffected doesn’t make their concerns any less valid.
 
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otomous

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Southern drivers who already know the routes south of the river shouldve been given the class 700 conversion course (4 days)... and then maybe london bridge to finsbury park route learning. This couldve been done months and months ago.... and the route learning couldve infact been done years ago, to at least create a cushion while new Thameslink drivers are bring passrd out and trained.

Spot on. When I first heard about the routes Thameslink was taking I thought that’s what would happen. Far easier to take trained drivers and give them some extra traction and route knowledge than train up loads of new drivers who then have to learn a plethora of routes too. It would have made sense for Southern drivers to learn to a suitable overlapping point - Kentish Town and Finsbury Park say - and Great Northern Drivers to learn down to London Bridge or even East Croydon.

Also wouldn’t the new London Bridge to Epsom route have been a better place to send the ex Tattenham Thameslink, rather than Rainham?
 

bramling

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In all fairness, if you’re based in Greenwich, you wont have been affected by the negative changes others are complaining about here. Specifically the loss of the semi fast Gillingham - Charing Cross service via the North Kent, replaced by an all shacks TL service (or an awkward change at Gravesend or Dartford to a “fast” via the Sidcup which missed out the convenient connections on the North Kent line, most notably the forthcoming Crossrail connection at Abbey Wood.

The fact you personally are unaffected doesn’t make their concerns any less valid.

He will, however, be affected by being stuck with 8-car class 700s originally destined for Tattenham Corner.
 

Bromley boy

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He will, however, be affected by being stuck with 8-car class 700s originally destined for Tattenham Corner.

True.

Putting connections aside, the sense I get is that if your regular train was previously an 8/10 car networker, the RLUs are better or equal.

If it was a 10 car 376 or 12 car networker, an RLU is worse.
 

bramling

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True.

Putting connections aside, the sense I get is that if your regular train was previously an 8/10 car networker, the RLUs are better or equal.

If it was a 10 car 376 or 12 car networker, an RLU is worse.

I guess it depends if you get a seat or not. I presume an 8-car 465 has considerably more seats than a RLU, and a 10-car even more. But the RLU does offer more standing room. Of course the 2+2 365 is a rather better compromise all-round.
 

Wii

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Still, a rethink is now inevitable, and we'll be left with a slimmed-down Thameslink service, which should probably suit a lot more people.

I agree with your logic & could see it happen for the short term (if the DfT have any logic which is a wider debate!) However I can you really see them giving up on this in the long term?

Whatever the arguments (& after a week of commuting I don't disagree with your points) I suspect too much money has been spent for them to give this up as a long term vision.
 

NorthKent1989

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With that argument, they might as well not bothered with Crossrail as long established trains from Greenford won't be able to run to Paddington. I'm enjoying this new Thameslink services (although admittedly when it runs at the moment) at Greenwich. Makes getting to north London a lot easier and when I go to my Nan's as she moved to Doncaster a few years ago.

That’s all well and good, but that’s at the cost of slower journeys from Medway, by all means, providing nothing occurs at NKE Junction, then keep it, but I would cut it back to Dartford or Plumstead.


The one that annoys me the post is when we hear "isn't it wonderful, I can go to XX Airport or YY shopping centre without having to change".

I can just about accept that certain people may benefit from not having to change to the Underground at somewhere like King's Cross (although if they're that desperate, why didn't they move to St. Albans?), but I can't tolerate the idea that for journeys people make a couple of times a year everyone else's regular journey should be made inherently unreliable.

Still, a rethink is now inevitable, and we'll be left with a slimmed-down Thameslink service, which should probably suit a lot more people.

A slimmed down Thameslink is probably better in the long run, keep to the Sutton loop, Brighton, Sevenoaks and maybe Dartford or Plumstead if NKE Junction can handle the conflict moves in the south and in the north Bedford, Welwyn and Stevenage.
 

Bromley boy

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I guess it depends if you get a seat or not. I presume an 8-car 465 has considerably more seats than a RLU, and a 10-car even more. But the RLU does offer more standing room. Of course the 2+2 365 is a rather better compromise all-round.

True.

Standing room is the way forward these days - certainly from inner suburban stations (and Greenwich is one of the “innerest” of suburban stations, with tube and DLR options).

From my experience of 700s standing is more comfortable than sitting, in any case.

Thankfully, these days, I’m always guaranteed a seat and the train has to wait for me <D.
 
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