How will Heathrow Crossrail prices be enforced

Harshil · 28 May 2018

Hi it's common news how using Crossrail to get to Heathrow is going to be priced similarly to the current connect service which is more expensive than the Piccadilly line due to the airport charging a premium for using their tunnels.

How will TFL correctly charge someone who gets on in zone 1 using an oyster card? How will they know if the Crossrail or Picc line was used?

Will there be different barriers on the Heathrow end?

RailUK Forums

Nick66 · 28 May 2018

I think they are totally different stations, so won’t be too difficult

Kite159 · 28 May 2018

Harshil said:
Hi it's common news how using Crossrail to get to Heathrow is going to be priced similarly to the current connect service which is more expensive than the Piccadilly line due to the airport charging a premium for using their tunnels.

How will TFL correctly charge someone who gets on in zone 1 using an oyster card? How will they know if the Crossrail or Picc line was used?

Will there be different barriers on the Heathrow end?

The only terminal where the platforms are close together is terminal 5, both Terminal 4 & Terminals 2/3 there is a moderate walk between the "HEX" platforms & LU platforms. Even with Terminal 5 you need to exit the LU barriers and go up and over to reach the "HEX" platforms.

In terms of the back-end system, it will be like other stations with separate gate lines

Clip · 28 May 2018

Same way they enforce other higher fares i would imagine

DPQ · 28 May 2018

This will be similar to how Oyster calculates Gatwick Express fares. If the user goes through the Gateline at Victoria Platform 13/14 they are charged more than if they go through the Gatelines on Platforms 15-19.

Joe Paxton · 28 May 2018

DPQ said:
This will be similar to how Oyster calculates Gatwick Express fares. If the user goes through the Gateline at Victoria Platform 13/14 they are charged more than if they go through the Gatelines on Platforms 15-19.

Though possibly not the best analogy, as Heathrow Express will start accepting Oyster and contactless for fares in the near future (September I believe) so it could lead to some confusion.

Instead I suggest Richmond to Waterloo - both NR and LU passengers pass through the same gates at Richmond, but at Waterloo NR passengers pass through the NR gates onto the main concourse, and LU passengers pass through the LU gates in one of the LU booking halls. They are thus charged the NR or LU rate as appropriate. (Same analogy works for Wimbledon-Waterloo.)

Joe Paxton · 28 May 2018

Harshil said:
Hi it's common news how using Crossrail to get to Heathrow is going to be priced similarly to the current connect service which is more expensive than the Piccadilly line due to the airport charging a premium for using their tunnels.

How will TFL correctly charge someone who gets on in zone 1 using an oyster card? How will they know if the Crossrail or Picc line was used?

Will there be different barriers on the Heathrow end?

Yes. Simple as that!

swt_passenger · 28 May 2018

Joe Paxton said:
Though possibly not the best analogy, as Heathrow Express will start accepting Oyster and contactless for fares in the near future (September I believe) so it could lead to some confusion.

We discussed this in an earlier thread and the presumption was that differential charging for HEx will be ascertained by a separate gateline at the Paddington end, which AIUI is basically how use of GatEx is decided at Victoria.

Haywain · 28 May 2018

swt_passenger said:
We discussed this in an earlier thread and the presumption was that differential charging for HEx will be ascertained by a separate gateline at the Paddington end, which AIUI is basically how use of GatEx is decided at Victoria.

That deals with the Heathrow Express bit, but the question was about distinguishing between the other two options.

swt_passenger · 28 May 2018

Haywain said:
That deals with the Heathrow Express bit, but the question was about distinguishing between the other two options.

I was only trying to answer the point made above me by Joe Paxton, about Heathrow Express possibly causing confusion. The other two had already been answered earlier.

Joe Paxton · 28 May 2018

swt_passenger said:
We discussed this in an earlier thread and the presumption was that differential charging for HEx will be ascertained by a separate gateline at the Paddington end, which AIUI is basically how use of GatEx is decided at Victoria.

Yes, I know, and that makes sense.

I was merely suggesting that an analogy that compares the difference between the Piccadilly line and Crossrail (for journeys to Heathrow) to the difference between Gatwick Express and Southern (for journeys to Gatwick) isn't ideal, as it might confuse people when Heathrow Express soon gets added to the mix!

swt_passenger · 28 May 2018

Joe Paxton said:
Yes, I know, and that makes sense. I was merely saying that an analogy that compares the difference between the Piccadilly line and Crossrail to the difference between Gatwick Express and Sourthern might get confusing when the Heathrow Express later gets added to the mix!

See what you mean now.

Joe Paxton · 29 May 2018

swt_passenger said:
See what you mean now.

I can't think of any suitable analogy really for a situation where there will be three different Oyster/contactless fares for journeys between two points in Greater London / the PAYG area. (I'm just thinking about rail transport here, not buses.)

bnm · 29 May 2018

Whilst the single fares using TfL Rail (Elizabeth Line in the future) to Heathrow are more expensive than the Piccadilly Line, the Daily Cap on Oyster is the same as Zones 1-6. Heathrow TfL Rail Stations are now shown on maps as being in Zone 6. Zones 1-6 Paper Travelcards are also now valid to Heathrow on TfL Rail services.

Oh, and Crossrail isn't being used as a name for the line or its passenger services.

Joe Paxton · 29 May 2018

bnm said:
...
Oh, and Crossrail isn't being used as a name for the line or its passenger services.

The Brenda Line doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

Haywain · 29 May 2018

Joe Paxton said:
I can't think of any suitable analogy really for a situation where there will be three different Oyster/contactless fares for journeys between two points in Greater London / the PAYG area. (I'm just thinking about rail transport here, not buses.)

From an Oyster perspective it's not 2 different points though. There are (or will be) 3 separate gatelines at Paddington so it will be easy to distinguish which route has been taken and charge accordingly.

Mag_seven · 29 May 2018

I wouldn't try to travel to Heathrow on Heathrow Express using Oyster PAYG or a paper travel card anyway as HEX have rigorous on board checks.

Haywain · 29 May 2018

Mag_seven said:
I wouldn't try to travel to Heathrow on Heathrow Express using Oyster PAYG or a paper travel card anyway as HEX have rigorous on board checks.

They will be accepting PAYG from September, but not paper Travelcards. The "rigorous on board checks" will uncover incorrect use of either both before and after the September change.

Joe Paxton · 29 May 2018

Haywain said:
From an Oyster perspective it's not 2 different points though. There are (or will be) 3 separate gatelines at Paddington so it will be easy to distinguish which route has been taken and charge accordingly.

Yes I appreciate that - I was really thinking about it from perspective of a curious (prospective) passenger who isn't au fait with the underlying mechanics of the Oyster/contactless system - i.e. the perspective of the OP of this thread!

Haywain · 29 May 2018

Joe Paxton said:
Yes I appreciate that - I was really thinking about it from perspective of a curious (prospective) passenger who isn't au fait with the underlying mechanics of the Oyster/contactless system - i.e. the perspective of the OP of this thread!

Indeed, and the answer is that they will know which route was used by knowing which gatelines were passed through.

Wallsendmag · 29 May 2018

Haywain said:
Indeed, and the answer is that they will know which route was used by knowing which gatelines were passed through.

Just like Gatwick Express

Joe Paxton · 29 May 2018

Wallsendmag said:
Just like Gatwick Express

Agreed - my point above regarding the analogy was simply that comparing Crossrail to the Gatwick Express, where the Piccadilly line equates to a Southern train, is likely to cause confusion once Heathrow Express itself starts accepting Oyster/contactless in September, that's all!

I absolutely accept that GatEx (at Victoria platforms 13 & 14) demonstrates the principle of how different gatelines can provide for different fares.

I think we're all in vehement agreement with each other!

danthekyle · 29 May 2018

Joe Paxton said:
I can't think of any suitable analogy really for a situation where there will be three different Oyster/contactless fares for journeys between two points in Greater London / the PAYG area. (I'm just thinking about rail transport here, not buses.)

That's a great trivia question. On paper, I believe Abbey Wood - Farringdon will have three different Oyster fares when Crossrail opens in December (peak fares shown):

Direct on Crossrail: £3.90
Direct on Thameslink: £4.10
Using Southeastern/TL then DLR and/or Tube £5.80

In reality though I don't think the system won't be able to differentiate between these routes well, because the gatelines at Abbey Wood and Farringdon aren't segregated. Obviously you'd be charged the higher tube fare if you changed to the tube at London Bridge, but I don't think you would if you changed at Woolwich Arsenal for the DLR.

Haywain · 29 May 2018

As Oyster is clearly incapable of dealing with TOC specific fares if they share gatelines, I can't imagine they will be more than one Oyster PAYG fare for the journey regardless of route.

MikeWh · 29 May 2018

danthekyle said:
That's a great trivia question. On paper, I believe Abbey Wood - Farringdon will have three different Oyster fares when Crossrail opens in December (peak fares shown):

Direct on Crossrail: £3.90
Direct on Thameslink: £4.10
Using Southeastern/TL then DLR and/or Tube £5.80

In reality though I don't think the system won't be able to differentiate between these routes well, because the gatelines at Abbey Wood and Farringdon aren't segregated. Obviously you'd be charged the higher tube fare if you changed to the tube at London Bridge, but I don't think you would if you changed at Woolwich Arsenal for the DLR.

There will be two fares. Default will be £3.90, Alternative will be £5.80 when changing to Underground at London Bridge, Blackfriars etc.

paddington · 29 May 2018

danthekyle said:
In reality though I don't think the system won't be able to differentiate between these routes well, because the gatelines at Abbey Wood and Farringdon aren't segregated.

Haywain said:
As Oyster is clearly incapable of dealing with TOC specific fares if they share gatelines, I can't imagine they will be more than one Oyster PAYG fare for the journey regardless of route.

West Brompton to Highbury and Islington ought to be £2.90 peak / £2.40 off-peak if going by tube through Zone 1, but only the £1.70 peak / £1.50 off-peak fare exists.

adrock1976 · 29 May 2018

A hypothetical scenario here, but how would a Highbury & Islington - Heathrow Rail work with Oyster or contactless?

There are various routes that could be used such as:

Victoria Line to Oxford Circus, Central Line to Ealing Broadway, then London Crossrail
Overground to Stratford, then either Crossrail direct or Central Line to Ealing Broadway, then Crossrail
Overground to Willesden Junction, then Bakerloo Line to Paddington, then Crossrail or the Express
Overground to West Brompton or Kensington Olympia, District Line to Earl's Court, District to Ealing Broadway, then Crossrail
Overground to West Brompton or Kensington Olympia, District Line to Earl's Court, Piccadilly Line to Heathrow
Northern City Line to Moorgate, then Crossrail direct

There may be other variations for this journey.

danthekyle · 29 May 2018

MikeWh said:
There will be two fares. Default will be £3.90, Alternative will be £5.80 when changing to Underground at London Bridge, Blackfriars etc.

Yes, I agree it will be quite simple in practice, but if you were to look at the fares tables, there are three scenarios that could apply in theory (TfL-LU, NR1, NR1-T).

Are there many other examples (excluding airports) where two direct services between the same two stations are notionally supposed to charge different PAYG fares? Most of the other rail routes I can think of charge the Tfl-LU fare where they run the same routes as TfL services.

DY444 · 29 May 2018

danthekyle said:
Yes, I agree it will be quite simple in practice, but if you were to look at the fares tables, there are three scenarios that could apply in theory (TfL-LU, NR1, NR1-T).

Are there many other examples (excluding airports) where two direct services between the same two stations are notionally supposed to charge different PAYG fares? Most of the other rail routes I can think of charge the Tfl-LU fare where they run the same routes as TfL services.

Not sure if this counts but I have an idea that London Bridge (NR) to Waterloo E is more than London Bridge (LU) to Waterloo (LU)

MikeWh · 29 May 2018

DY444 said:
Not sure if this counts but I have an idea that London Bridge (NR) to Waterloo E is more than London Bridge (LU) to Waterloo (LU)

London Bridge (NR) to Waterloo East is £2.70 peak, £2.20 off-peak.
London Bridge (LU) to Waterloo (LU) is £2.40 at any time.

How will Heathrow Crossrail prices be enforced

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