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Any news on proposals to build an alternative route between Exeter & Plymouth?

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Rapidash

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I've only been along there infrequently recently, but there has been a decent sized orange contingent out with laser levels, drones and other surveying kit on each occasion.

Just as well they never handed back that overflow carpark at the Warren!
 
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swt_passenger

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The general consensus seems to be that we build a new line and improve the existing line...
My view has been that a new inland bypass line is extremely unlikely, and a via Okehampton line is also highly unlikely, and the recent media evidence still suggests improving what already exists is all that NR are actively looking at.
 
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Building an alternative line would have many benefits. It would allow huge improvements - Devon metro services etc. Investing in Devon, Plymouth, Cornwall, Torbay with the highest resilience possible.
The cheapest alternative - HM government, Network Rail & King Canute?
Probably be a lot of objections and years may go by.
 

thelem

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It's hysterical in the extreme for anyone to suggest that a reopening via Okehampton would represent an existential threat to the mainline. They are both similar lengths and complement each other by way of serving different areas of Devon.

If an alternative line already existed, do you think the government would be considering spending £500m at Dawlish? If they didn't and a major cliff fall happened, would it be a priority to reinstate the line or would they just turn Dawlish into the terminus of a branch line?
 

yorksrob

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If an alternative line already existed, do you think the government would be considering spending £500m at Dawlish? If they didn't and a major cliff fall happened, would it be a priority to reinstate the line or would they just turn Dawlish into the terminus of a branch line?

If the Okehampton route existed, I think it would be worth its weight in gold for diversions, but I don't think there would be any scenario in which it would be used to permanently replace the line to Newton Abbott. Such imaginings are scaremongering, pure and simple.
 

Woody

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Back in the summer of 1939 construction of a Dawlish avoiding line engineered to a minimum one mile radius curvature for speed was about to begin. The land required had been bought and fenced off prior to construction starting while a further Totnes avoiding line had also been surveyed. All this despite the LSWR main line via Okehampton and Teign Valley lines still being open at the time which should say something I think. Sadly the war stopped everything of course and work never restarted.
Tragically the former LSWR main line via Okehampton closed as a through route in 1968 leaving Plymouth and Cornwall relying solely on today's slow and indirect rail route to Exeter via Dawlish and Teignmouth. From Plymouth and Cornwall's point of view the first 10 miles of railway from Exeter St David's to Dawlish Warren runs in a SE direction, effectively 10 dead rail miles from Exeter before you even start. Even worse, Newton Abbot to Plymouth is a mostly 55mph maximum railway and little better at 60mph maximum from Totnes to the top of Hemerden Bank just 6 miles from Plymouth. That's very similar to Exeter to Barnstaple branch line speeds at 55/70mph! You can easily drive from Plymouth to Tiverton parkway in just 50 minutes while the rail journey time just to Exeter has remained firmly stuck fat about one hour since the HST's started running in 1980. All the resilience in the world at Dawlish and Teignmouth wont change that. What business and political leaders down here are consistently calling for is resilience AND faster journey times. None of the solutions being discussed here address that question. As things stand the rail journey time between Devon's two main economic centres Plymouth 261k and Exeter 118k will remain the same in 2180 as they were in 1980!
 

The Ham

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If an alternative line already existed, do you think the government would be considering spending £500m at Dawlish? If they didn't and a major cliff fall happened, would it be a priority to reinstate the line or would they just turn Dawlish into the terminus of a branch line?

Even spending £500 million could still result in a cliff fall blocking the section of track where the line isn't being diverted out to sea

Back in the summer of 1939 construction of a Dawlish avoiding line engineered to a minimum one mile radius curvature for speed was about to begin. The land required had been bought and fenced off prior to construction starting while a further Totnes avoiding line had also been surveyed. All this despite the LSWR main line via Okehampton and Teign Valley lines still being open at the time which should say something I think. Sadly the war stopped everything of course and work never restarted.
Tragically the former LSWR main line via Okehampton closed as a through route in 1968 leaving Plymouth and Cornwall relying solely on today's slow and indirect rail route to Exeter via Dawlish and Teignmouth. From Plymouth and Cornwall's point of view the first 10 miles of railway from Exeter St David's to Dawlish Warren runs in a SE direction, effectively 10 dead rail miles from Exeter before you even start. Even worse, Newton Abbot to Plymouth is a mostly 55mph maximum railway and little better at 60mph maximum from Totnes to the top of Hemerden Bank just 6 miles from Plymouth. That's very similar to Exeter to Barnstaple branch line speeds at 55/70mph! You can easily drive from Plymouth to Tiverton parkway in just 50 minutes while the rail journey time just to Exeter has remained firmly stuck fat about one hour since the HST's started running in 1980. All the resilience in the world at Dawlish and Teignmouth wont change that. What business and political leaders down here are consistently calling for is resilience AND faster journey times. None of the solutions being discussed here address that question. As things stand the rail journey time between Devon's two main economic centres Plymouth 261k and Exeter 118k will remain the same in 2180 as they were in 1980!

The Dawlish Avoiding Line would save 10-15 minutes. However for less money you could probably speed up some other sections and/or provide electrification (which can also improve acceleration) to achieve the same time savings (bearing in mind that the 80x's should also save about the same time when heading to London without any changes to track).

It's also worth noting that with the semi fast services on the B&H and within Cornwall there's likely to more of the fastest services running in the current timetable slots (fewer trains calling at Westbury, Newbury, etc. as they will be served by the semi fasts).
 

Cowley

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As things stand the rail journey time between Devon's two main economic centres Plymouth 261k and Exeter 118k will remain the same in 2180 as they were in 1980!
It will probably be slower due to running underwater by then. ;)
Hopefully the next generation of trains will have some kind of submarine capability.

This scheme although not the best possible solution for any proper gains in travel times in the South West is probably the best that can be done at the moment with regards to the money available and keeping the route open that serves the current towns.
As has been pointed out by others the sea defences will need to be maintained anyway, and this effectively boots the problem a few decades down the line for the next generation to worry about.
If sea and water table levels continue to rise and that rise also starts to speed up, then much of the GWR route from the Somerset Levels right down to Newton Abbot will be under threat.
As will many of our coastal communities...
 

Woody

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It will probably be slower due to running underwater by then. ;)
Hopefully the next generation of trains will have some kind of submarine capability.

This scheme although not the best possible solution for any proper gains in travel times in the South West is probably the best that can be done at the moment with regards to the money available and keeping the route open that serves the current towns.
As has been pointed out by others the sea defences will need to be maintained anyway, and this effectively boots the problem a few decades down the line for the next generation to worry about.
If sea and water table levels continue to rise and that rise also starts to speed up, then much of the GWR route from the Somerset Levels right down to Newton Abbot will be under threat.
As will many of our coastal communities...
Speeding up the rail journey from Exeter eastwards while leaving such poor rail journey times west of Exeter is simply increaseing the perception that Plymouth and Cornwall are even further away from the rest of the country than they actually are. Its no wonder then that Tiverton Parkway has become a very popular rail head for business people and commuters from a wide swath of Devon and Cornwall now, served as it is west of Exeter by fast and direct daulled trunk roads from Cornwall A30, Plymouth A38, and now Torbay A380. ie Bodmin is just 60 minutes via the A30 from the M5 at Exeter compared to a 100 minutes by rail! So effectively what we have now in a 21st century south wset context is a fast main line direct to Exeter and the south Devon coast then a slow branch/secondary line on to Plymouth and Cornwall. Given Plymouths relative size and economic importance to the SW economy, ie HM Dockyard, one of the largest universities in the country and providing about 13K manufacturing jobs that situation is quite appalling really in 2018 especailly when you see what is happenning elsewhere.
 

yorksrob

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Speeding up the rail journey from Exeter eastwards while leaving such poor rail journey times west of Exeter is simply increaseing the perception that Plymouth and Cornwall are even further away from the rest of the country than they actually are. Its no wonder then that Tiverton Parkway has become a very popular rail head for business people and commuters from a wide swath of Devon and Cornwall now, served as it is west of Exeter by fast and direct daulled trunk roads from Cornwall A30, Plymouth A38, and now Torbay A380. ie Bodmin is just 60 minutes via the A30 from the M5 at Exeter compared to a 100 minutes by rail! So effectively what we have now in a 21st century south wset context is a fast main line direct to Exeter and the south Devon coast then a slow branch/secondary line on to Plymouth and Cornwall. Given Plymouths relative size and economic importance to the SW economy, ie HM Dockyard, one of the largest universities in the country and providing about 13K manufacturing jobs that situation is quite appalling really in 2018 especailly when you see what is happenning elsewhere.

It is appalling that Plymouth only has one long route Eastwards and no direct rail connections towards North Devon.
 
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In 'mid 2019' the DfT will announce the road projects selected under the 'Road Investment Strategy 2' for the period 2020-25. There has been much lobbying for the A38 from Exeter to Plymouth to be upgraded to motorway standard as an extension of the M5. The A38 is notoriously dangerous with sub-standard junctions, sharp curves and steep gradients over Haldon Hill and at Dean Prior. It is essentially a cobbled together mess of 1970s new build and 1770s turnpike. I'm not holding my breath, but the Tories are getting twitchy about a LD revival in Devon and Cornwall in general, and Labour in Plymouth in particular, so it may come to pass. This would make the railway even less competitive, so it is doubly depressing that it looks like good money after bad is to be thrown at Dawlish rather than build a new avoiding line.
 

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Controversial argument: I think the A38 upgrade to motorway standard would deliver more benefits to the citizens of Plymouth and the S/W in general than a Dawlish avoiding line. That being said, why not both ;)?
 

MarkyT

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Controversial argument: I think the A38 upgrade to motorway standard would deliver more benefits to the citizens of Plymouth and the S/W in general than a Dawlish avoiding line. That being said, why not both ;)?

The road improvement alone is likely to result in further mode shift away from rail, and induce even more road demand which could be self defeating if capacity improvement is an aspiration especially where the improved road meets the urban networks at the edge of the respective cities, and that in turn could result in controversial demands for further urban road building or widening. In Torbay over the past 3 decades we've had progressive improvements to the A380, culminating in opening of the South Devon Highway AKA the Kingskerswell bypass in late 2015. Although peak congestion is still a problem, road travel time to Exeter is now almost always quicker than typical rail journeys, even with a change to a fast train at Newton Abbot and especially compared to one of the through stopping local trains that pull in at Dawlish Warren for an express to pass. I'm not suggesting the roads shouldn't have been improved, but rail in the far west peninsular is in danger of becoming progressively less relevent without some significant improvements. A conservative 10 minutes travel time saving east of Exeter is clearly important, but that added to another 10 minutes between Exeter and Newton Abbot via a DAL add up to a healthy 20 minutes saving from South Devon, Plymouth and Cornwall to the South East. On an out and back circuit that's 40 minutes saving which can contribute to better stock and crew utilisation and more resilient turn-rounds at termini.
 

jyte

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The road improvement alone is likely to result in further mode shift away from rail, and induce even more road demand which could be self defeating if capacity improvement is an aspiration especially where the improved road meets the urban networks at the edge of the respective cities, and that in turn could result in controversial demands for further urban road building or widening. In Torbay over the past 3 decades we've had progressive improvements to the A380, culminating in opening of the South Devon Highway AKA the Kingskerswell bypass in late 2015. Although peak congestion is still a problem, road travel time to Exeter is now almost always quicker than typical rail journeys, even with a change to a fast train at Newton Abbot and especially compared to one of the through stopping local trains that pull in at Dawlish Warren for an express to pass. I'm not suggesting the roads shouldn't have been improved, but rail in the far west peninsular is in danger of becoming progressively less relevent without some significant improvements. A conservative 10 minutes travel time saving east of Exeter is clearly important, but that added to another 10 minutes between Exeter and Newton Abbot via a DAL add up to a healthy 20 minutes saving from South Devon, Plymouth and Cornwall to the South East. On an out and back circuit that's 40 minutes saving which can contribute to better stock and crew utilisation and more resilient turn-rounds at termini.
Agreed. In terms of economic externalities, people in trains are much better than people in cars...thus we should encourage people to take public transit in general over private transit (I'm including taxis as a mode of private transit).

I personally regarding the SW situation support improving the mainline all the way from Reading through to Penzance. I would be amazed if a sound economic argument could be made for close to 200 miles of new 125mph railway.....

There's often a BCR fallacy involved in large scale project planning. If you chase the best BCR, you can easily spend very little money and deliver very little results. In fact, mathematically if there are no negative consequences of doing nothing, the best BCR would be exactly that - do nothing.

God I hate politics sometimes.
 

Woody

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Without some significant rail infrastructure improvements west of Exeter at least as far as Plymouth the railways now face a very uncertain future even with the new IETs operating services. 21st century trains running at branch/regional line speeds on a very indirect route simply won't suffice anymore in the 21st century. Thats why even after the resilience improvements on the sea wall the railways will still remain part of the problem rather than part of the solution to the far south wests connectivity woes. True the A38 between Exeter and Plymouth is essentially a series of variable quality joined up 1970s bypasses but the Dft still legally recognises it as a 70mph 45 miles dual carriageway that is much quicker and more direct than the 52 mile slow and indirect rail route between the two cities. So it's not surprising really that rail use from Plymouth is now in serious decline.
 

nuneatonmark

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I regularly go to the Newquay area and although I live in Nuneaton, sometimes travel from London meeting my wife at Tiverton Parkway. Way better than train all the way to Newquay, it saves well over an hour. Given the billions spent on rail in London and also quite a lot elsewhere too, it’s about time destinations west of Exeter got some real improvements. The new trains and 2 trains per hour in Cornwall are good steps, but much bigger improvements are needed to bring investment into Cornwall, in particular. As others have said speeds between Exeter and Plymouth and west of Plymouth are a joke. Reopening the Okehampton route should happen AND a more resilient route around the coast. I also think a direct route into St Austell from the Newquay line should be very feasible. Thousands of houses are being built in and around Newquay. The air service is better than the rail service!
 

Woody

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Factory bosses tell minister that trains to Plymouth are too slow.

https://www.devonlive.com/news/factory-bosses-tell-minister-trains-1503935

Plymouth’s biggest manufacturers have told the Government the city needs a “fair share of the pie” when it comes to spending on transport and infrastructure.

A delegation of more than 50 people representing the city’s major factories told business minister Richard Harrington about how the city is served by slow trains and needs cash for innovation too.
 
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yorksrob

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richw

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Oke Rail are very vocal in these parts. If I’m not mistaken they were responsible for the Okehampton HST trips
 

Chester1

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I have just re-read Network Rail's study from 2014. The C5 option for an avoiding line has a BCR of 0.52 which is poor. Its surprising that closing the existing line was not contemplated as part of any of the options, which must have wrecked the BCR because fewer services would use it and the NR saving on no longer maintaining the coastal route could not be included. C5 skirts around Teignmouth and Dawlish and edge of town stations with passing loops would be worse for the local communities than the status quo but still a reasonable option. The estimated journey time saving for long distance services was 8 minutes. I can't see how the small communities along the coast could justify having such a high maintenance line for local services while a new main line ran around the edges of the two largest settlements.
 

coppercapped

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I have just re-read Network Rail's study from 2014. The C5 option for an avoiding line has a BCR of 0.52 which is poor. Its surprising that closing the existing line was not contemplated as part of any of the options, which must have wrecked the BCR because fewer services would use it and the NR saving on no longer maintaining the coastal route could not be included. C5 skirts around Teignmouth and Dawlish and edge of town stations with passing loops would be worse for the local communities than the status quo but still a reasonable option. The estimated journey time saving for long distance services was 8 minutes. I can't see how the small communities along the coast could justify having such a high maintenance line for local services while a new main line ran around the edges of the two largest settlements.
The point is that the existing line is the seawall protecting the towns. Even if the railway were to be removed somebody would still have to maintain the wall.
 

Chester1

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The point is that the existing line is the seawall protecting the towns. Even if the railway were to be removed somebody would still have to maintain the wall.

Outside of the built up areas significant stretches could be downgraded to spending levels on a normal stretch of coast. If maintaining the existing line remains non negotiable then a new line will never be justified by journey time reductions or through increasing the reliability of regional services.
 

DynamicSpirit

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Outside of the built up areas significant stretches could be downgraded to spending levels on a normal stretch of coast. If maintaining the existing line remains non negotiable then a new line will never be justified by journey time reductions or through increasing the reliability of regional services.

I think it probably is non-negotiable. You'd have a hard time pursuading the Government to accept spending hundreds of millions on closing the exsting line and building a new one when one of the main results would be the loss of many of the local passengers because their towns no longer have a convenient railway service with central-ish stations. Especially when Network Rail have just spent loads of money on rebuilding the sea wall protecting the railway to make it much more resilient than it previously was.

I do agree with you that building a new line just to get modest journey time reductions for fast trains is unlikely to get a solid business case (It will give an added benefit of allowing fast trains to overtake slow ones giving more timetable fledibility but even that is probably not worth the cost of building it). But after the sea wall collapse, it's possible that something will be built more because of the political case for it.

In that context, bear in mind that one of the political issues is now the desire in many quarters to have more than one line to Cornwall, so the entire county isn't cut off by rail when the only rail line sees major disruption. Building a new line and removing the existing one isn't exactly going to help with that aim! (Admittedly, building a new line to Newton Abbot and leaving the existing Dawlish line also doesn't completely solve that problem, although it does lessen it a little).
 

The Ham

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Outside of the built up areas significant stretches could be downgraded to spending levels on a normal stretch of coast. If maintaining the existing line remains non negotiable then a new line will never be justified by journey time reductions or through increasing the reliability of regional services.

You would probably get better journey time savings from electrification for less money.

It is why if you are looking for a second route going via Okehampton would be preferable.

Especially if that route was operated as an extension of the Waterloo services, as that would open up more direct (or requiring less changes) travel options. Such as Southampton, Portsmouth, Weymouth, Woking, Clapham Junction, Salisbury and Brighton to Plymouth.

Such journeys may not be a lot of people on each service, but probably a few. Given the amount that each would be paying and that the extra cost to the railway would be fairly small in getting then to Exeter it would likely result in a better business case than had currently be looked at.

Long term it would also make such schemes as the redoubling on the WofE line more likely.
 

yorksrob

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Additionally with Okehampton, you don't have to rely on sped up journey times and severe weather disruption as the sole drivers of the business case. You also have the benefits of providing better transport links to Okehampton and Tavistock themselves.
 

Taunton

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As others have said speeds between Exeter and Plymouth and west of Plymouth are a joke.
Note that driver Moses Clements, on City of Truro in 1904, was faster from Plymouth to Exeter than an HST nowadays.
 

AndrewE

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I think it probably is non-negotiable. You'd have a hard time pursuading the Government to accept spending hundreds of millions on closing the exsting line and building a new one when one of the main results would be the loss of many of the local passengers because their towns no longer have a convenient railway service with central-ish stations. Especially when Network Rail have just spent loads of money on rebuilding the sea wall protecting the railway to make it much more resilient than it previously was.
Economists are taught that past investment is irrelevant when deciding policy (or something like that.) If you are in a hole, stop digging. So the recent sea wall expenditure isn't really relevant. However there is a clear public transport need along that bit of the coast, and there is also a need to improve the resilience of the west of England services, so I would say maintain the first and reopen the LSWR main line.

You would probably get better journey time savings from electrification for less money...e pecially if that route was operated as an extension of the Waterloo services, as that would open up more direct (or requiring less changes) travel options. Such as Southampton, Portsmouth...
Given this morning's news of the urgent and critical need to accelerate decarbonisation of the whole economy, the answer has got to include massive modal shifts in transport. Public transport will have to be made better in every way including reconnecting lots of communities, electrification and battery-assisted trains in the gaps between the wires. Rebuilding and wiring the LSWR would be a good start. To control costs it could start as single line with dynamic loops, making sure that the track was in the right place for doubling when justified. The extra stock needed could be dual voltage EMU, with purpose-built compatible diesel locos for use in the gaps too long for battery power.
 
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