Ramsgate to Charing Cross via Dover Priory diverted

BluePenguin · 29 May 2018

The delayed 17:05 service sat at Ashford International for a while before being diverted from Sevenoaks along the Thameslink route to London Bridge. It felt very strange to be trundling past the likes of Swanley and St Mary Cary which I am only used to happening on a service to Victoria

I have never seen this before. Anyone know why this happened?

RailUK Forums

Southern · 29 May 2018

Being reported as signalling problems between Sevenoaks - Orpington.

Don't think it's occurred lately but it's been a diversionary route in the past to get around engineering work.

yorksrob · 29 May 2018

Been diverted via Bat & Ball a few times over the past thirty years or so.

The most recent was a bit different as it was a Victoria - Ashford via Maidstone East service that diverted along the mainline through Orpington to Sevenoaks, before reversing via Bat & Ball and reversing again at Otford. Took me a couple of moments to work out what was happening !

Bromley boy · 29 May 2018

BluePenguin said:
The delayed 17:05 service sat at Ashford International for a while before being diverted from Sevenoaks along the Thameslink route to London Bridge. It felt very strange to be trundling past the likes of Swanley and St Mary Cary which I am only used to happening on a service to Victoria

I have never seen this before. Anyone know why this happened?

Lots of issues all round the network, mostly due to lightning strikes/flooding caused by torrential rain.

There was a track circuit failure in poll hill tunnel (between dunton green and knockholt) which might explain that particular diversion.

RichJF · 29 May 2018

https://www.southeasternrailway.co....562360000#INCA79CED56870C42DF8254EDDDE11AC19B

Because of flooding across various routes trains services are being disrupted on the network.
Hastings Mainline/Paddock Wood Mainline: Minor disruption on the lines due to earlier signal problems at Tonbridge and between Sevenoaks & Orpington

Might explain the multitude of issues!

extendedpaul · 29 May 2018

RichJF said:
https://www.southeasternrailway.co....562360000#INCA79CED56870C42DF8254EDDDE11AC19B

Might explain the multitude of issues!

The 15.25 HS1 from St Pancras Intl to Ramsgate departed 99 minutes late and is currently four hours delayed. The timetabled 11 minute journey from Stratford to Ebbsfleet took almost two and a half hours. Hopefully not in the tunnel where there's no mobile phone signal - I had an hour delay there myself recently.

FlippyFF · 29 May 2018

I arrived at St Pancras at 17:40, gave up at 18:15 and caught the TL Peterborough to Horsham service (which RTT wrongly said wasnt running). At London Bridge I just missed the 18:39 and 18:40 departures to Ashford. Therefore I caught 2W56 up to Charing Cross where it then formed 2R64 back to Ramsgate. We've just arrived at Paddock Wood (20:08).

What a fun evening.

Simon

jnjkerbin · 29 May 2018

Yep - bad afternoon in the south east - multiple cases of flooding, lightning strikes, signal failures, train faults and someone on the tracks at Ebbsfleet 2 hours 45 minutes ago who for some reason the police still have not arrested!

alistairlees · 29 May 2018

BluePenguin said:
The delayed 17:05 service sat at Ashford International for a while before being diverted from Sevenoaks along the Thameslink route to London Bridge. It felt very strange to be trundling past the likes of Swanley and St Mary Cary which I am only used to happening on a service to Victoria

I have never seen this before. Anyone know why this happened?

This is a regular diversionary route at weekends, and when there is disruption on weekdays.

i4n · 30 May 2018

jnjkerbin said:
Yep - bad afternoon in the south east - multiple cases of flooding, lightning strikes, signal failures, train faults and someone on the tracks at Ebbsfleet 2 hours 45 minutes ago who for some reason the police still have not arrested!

I think if I read South Eastern and the BTP's twitter correctly yesterday he made it all the way from the platform at Ebbsfleet, though the Thames tunnel and into Essex where he was arrested - about 4 hours in total. I think the Police ended up just flushing him out of the tunnel into the arms of waiting colleagues on the other side!

Bad day for South Eatern all around (I'll admit that I was a lucky one that managed to only have a small delay on my commute in the end which was a massive surprise)

RichJF · 30 May 2018

alistairlees said:
This is a regular diversionary route at weekends, and when there is disruption on weekdays.

SE trains also regularly diverted via Redhill at weekends with drivers who sign that route. Occasionally during the week in times of disruption too.

BluePenguin · 30 May 2018

Southern said:
Being reported as signalling problems between Sevenoaks - Orpington.

Don't think it's occurred lately but it's been a diversionary route in the past to get around engineering work.

Ah fair enough, no announcement was made so left feeling puzzled. Lots of annoyed and huffing and puffing people got off at Sevenoaks who wanted Orpington which of course because of the diversion, the train could no longer call at.

I still can't understand why we had to go so slowly! Also, the route we took via Bat & Ball was so close we might as well have stopped at each station up to Chislehurt lol. I understand the Thameslink trains must go slowly for a reason, however Southeastern diversion surely should be allowed to go much faster.

BluePenguin · 30 May 2018

i4n said:
I think if I read South Eastern and the BTP's twitter correctly yesterday he made it all the way from the platform at Ebbsfleet, though the Thames tunnel and into Essex where he was arrested - about 4 hours in total. I think the Police ended up just flushing him out of the tunnel into the arms of waiting colleagues on the other side!

Bad day for South Eatern all around (I'll admit that I was a lucky one that managed to only have a small delay on my commute in the end which was a massive surprise)

I can't believe how he managed to get through the tunnel from Northfleet as well! He was lucky not to be hit by a Javelin at 140mph. The police should not have gone into the tunnel to get him personally be seeing as the man had caused enough disruption and delay by the time the police arrived they had no choice. It took them a very long time to arrive.

After the forum meal I walked into St Pancras to find hoards of people everywhere. In the end I dashed over to Waterloo East and got a train to Dover from there and a taxi to home provided by Southeastern. But that is for another thread.

Islineclear3_1 · 30 May 2018

BluePenguin said:
I still can't understand why we had to go so slowly! Also, the route we took via Bat & Ball was so close we might as well have stopped at each station up to Chislehurt lol. I understand the Thameslink trains must go slowly for a reason, however Southeastern diversion surely should be allowed to go much faster.

There are a lot of Metro all-shacks services in the area that will invariably, hold up main-line trains from time to time.

BluePenguin · 30 May 2018

On the subject of diversions can someone please explain to me what the track layout at this junction?

I have attached a picture of a map on which I have colour coded and labelled the lines.

I have looked at the same junction on my iPad and it only shows Photo 1.

However the default map on Windows shows lots of extra lines as on Photo 2. Yesterday our train was diverted along the purple line. I thought we were going along the brown line until I checked on my phone and noticed otherwise. We also crossed the bridge as if we had come along the green line form Orpington - how was this possible?

Is the brown line the route trains coming off the red line to Victoria the one they usually take when diverted/returning to the green Charing Cross line as in my case? See

When trains from Sevenoaks direction are diverted to Victoria, do they take the blue line or do they really go along the purple line? Do Orpington to Victoria services run along the blue line or the purple line?

Photo 3 is Photo 1 showing the same tracks but with the same colour coded lines. I added a close of Photo 2 to help tell the lines apart.

BluePenguin · 30 May 2018

RichJF said:
SE trains also regularly diverted via Redhill at weekends with drivers who sign that route. Occasionally during the week in times of disruption too.

I think the only time I actually like weekend engineering work is when they do this as it makes getting to Gatwick from Tonbridge much quicker. I am hoping Southeastern have this line returned to them in the next franchise as it is a handy line to have but is currently too slow to take it over going via London.

IrishDave · 30 May 2018

BluePenguin said:
On the subject of diversions can someone please explain to me what the track layout at this junction?

I have attached a picture of a map on which I have colour coded and labelled the lines.

I have looked at the same junction on my iPad and it only shows Photo 1.

However the default map on Windows shows lots of extra lines as on Photo 2. Yesterday our train was diverted along the purple line. I thought we were going along the brown line until I checked on my phone and noticed otherwise. We also crossed the bridge as if we had come along the green line form Orpington - how was this possible?

Is the brown line the route trains coming off the red line to Victoria the one they usually take when diverted/returning to the green Charing Cross line as in my case? See

When trains from Sevenoaks direction are diverted to Victoria, do they take the blue line or do they really go along the purple line? Do Orpington to Victoria services run along the blue line or the purple line?

Photo 3 is Photo 1 showing the same tracks but with the same colour coded lines. I added a close of Photo 2 to help tell the lines apart.

View attachment 47487 View attachment 47488 View attachment 47489 View attachment 47490

Right, let's start by using some actual line names (Up is towards London):

the blue line (two tracks) are the Down and Up Fast Tonbridge Loops;
the pinky-purple line (two tracks) are the Down and Up Slow Tonbridge Loops;
the indigo line (one track) is the Up Chatham Loop;
the brown line (one track) is the Reversible Chatham Loop.

Added complication: the Down Slow Tonbridge Loop and the Up Chatham Loop share a short section of track while they go underneath the Grove Park-Orpington line.

The Slow Tonbridge Loops are used regularly by Victoria-Orpington services, since terminating at Orpington is much more convenient on the Slow lines (the eastern pair of the four tracks on Grove Park-Orpington).

The Up Chatham Loop and the Reversible Chatham Loop are used by the 1Gxx peak trains between Ramsgate/Dover and Cannon Street via the Medway Towns. Down trains on this route (be they scheduled 1Gxx or Charing Cross trains diverted via Swanley) must use the Reversible Chatham Loop; Up trains on this route may use either the Reversible Chatham Loop or the Up Chatham Loop.

The Fast Tonbridge Loops see very little timetabled use, with a few trains early in the morning / late at night; however, when fast line Charing Cross-Tonbridge trains are diverted to/from Victoria, they tend to use the Fast Tonbridge Loops.

Hopefully that makes sense — I'll try and dig out a track layout diagram when I get home this evening.

rebmcr · 30 May 2018

BluePenguin said:
On the subject of diversions can someone please explain to me what the track layout at this junction?

I have attached a picture of a map on which I have colour coded and labelled the lines.

I have looked at the same junction on my iPad and it only shows Photo 1.

However the default map on Windows shows lots of extra lines as on Photo 2. Yesterday our train was diverted along the purple line. I thought we were going along the brown line until I checked on my phone and noticed otherwise. We also crossed the bridge as if we had come along the green line form Orpington - how was this possible?

Is the brown line the route trains coming off the red line to Victoria the one they usually take when diverted/returning to the green Charing Cross line as in my case? See

When trains from Sevenoaks direction are diverted to Victoria, do they take the blue line or do they really go along the purple line? Do Orpington to Victoria services run along the blue line or the purple line?

Photo 3 is Photo 1 showing the same tracks but with the same colour coded lines. I added a close of Photo 2 to help tell the lines apart.

Courtesy of Carto Metro:

30907 · 30 May 2018

The Up Chatham Loop is the obvious route for a train to Charing Cross via Otford to take, as it avoids several conflicting moves.
The Reversible Chatham Loop was originally Down only, and was altered when Eurostar was introduced (when it used SE tracks all the way to Folkestone) - using it in the Up direction makes very good sense for the Chatham to Cannon Street fast trains.

IrishDave · 30 May 2018

30907 said:
The Up Chatham Loop is the obvious route for a train to Charing Cross via Otford to take, as it avoids several conflicting moves.
The Reversible Chatham Loop was originally Down only, and was altered when Eurostar was introduced (when it used SE tracks all the way to Folkestone) - using it in the Up direction makes very good sense for the Chatham to Cannon Street fast trains.

You'd think so, but of the five morning trains, four are booked via the Up Chatham loop and only one via the Reversible!

Thanks to @rebmcr for uploading the track diagram, that explains it much more clearly than I could in words above.

RichJF · 2 Jun 2018

As it was mentioned earlier in the thread, SE Hastings services are again running via Redhill this weekend.

alistairlees · 2 Jun 2018

The scissors crossing south of Chislehurst has now gone (a year or two ago), with the up fast to up slow moving to north of Chislehurst. It's enabled speeds to be increased. North of Chislehurst there is also a means to gain the up slow (or Cannon St) from the reversible platform 4 (the easterly platform). This platform is also used when stopping trains from London terminate at Chislehurst (when there is engineering and the line south of Chislehurst to Orpington is closed).

GW43125 · 2 Jun 2018

alistairlees said:
The scissors crossing south of Chislehurst has now gone (a year or two ago), with the up fast to up slow moving to north of Chislehurst. It's enabled speeds to be increased. North of Chislehurst there is also a means to gain the up slow (or Cannon St) from the reversible platform 4 (the easterly platform). This platform is also used when stopping trains from London terminate at Chislehurst (when there is engineering and the line south of Chislehurst to Orpington is closed).

I don't suppose you've got a diagram of the changes at all? Traksy still shows the same layout as Cartometro.

alistairlees · 2 Jun 2018

GW43125 said:
I don't suppose you've got a diagram of the changes at all? Traksy still shows the same layout as Cartometro.

If you look in satellite view on Google Maps you can see the new layout north of the station. The scissors are still there to the south so this must have been the transitional phase.

GW43125 · 3 Jun 2018

alistairlees said:
If you look in satellite view on Google Maps you can see the new layout north of the station. The scissors are still there to the south so this must have been the transitional phase.

Will do, thanks.

Ramsgate to Charing Cross via Dover Priory diverted

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