NorthKent1989
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In some cases if it ain’t broke why fix it
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Should TfL step into Thameslink?
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In some cases if it ain’t broke why fix it
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I doubt TfL would make any difference anyway. On the second day of full Thameslink operation in May 1988 a 319 (004 iirc) sat down on Blackfriars Bridge at 0800 and the driver and three fitters took 2 hours to persuade it to move again. Chaos ensued for most of the rest of the day. Those of us who live on the "legacy" Thameslink routes have had our travelling lives punctuated by such occurrences at very regular intervals ever since irrespective of the operator. Whilst GTR is getting it in the neck (and rightly so), FCC also had their fair share of inept management induced chaos (most notably the great driver shortage a few years back).
What seems to be a particular feature of TL is the fact that the day's service is always destroyed by an incident irrespective of its nature or the time it occurs. GN and other new users can look forward to that joy for years to come.
What seems to be a particular feature of TL is the fact that the day's service is always destroyed by an incident irrespective of its nature or the time it occurs. GN and other new users can look forward to that joy for years to come.
Easy to say when your only concern is losing the semi fasts from your station when not thinking about a much bigger picture which also includes trying to take relief off the tubes and provide more connections through London including crossrail.
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Mikey C
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TfL are making massive cuts to the bus network too...
NorthKent1989
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I have looked at the bigger picture and yes in principle Thameslink is a good idea, I’ve never denied that, and yes losing the semi fasts has been a big concern for myself and a lot of my fellow Medway commuters who relied heavily on the connections the Woolwich line provided quickly rather than stopping at all The shacks, it’s been an inconvenience than a help having Thameslink down in Medway, also not many people are enjoying these new connections at the moment are they? It’s hard to defend Thameslink when they messed up like this, and this is only the second week and there are still problems and delays
How many people are not enjoying th e connections and what connections are you on about?
you go on like you speak for the whole of Medway but I'm pretty sure you don't and with the shift in where people commute changing then it just seems like a hissy fit from yourself cos your journey may take 10 minutes longer. A bit like those who done the same when mainline services to Ramsgate for extra stops out in which helped people at those extra stops gain either more services or better connections a bit further along.
NorthKent1989
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Well there are hardly any trains from Higham so they’re not enjoying these shiny new Thameslink journey opportunities, trains are delayed, meaning commuters are missing their connections at Woolwich for the DLR, Charlton for the Jubilee line, Blackheath for services to other parts of South London.
Please do not belittle my concerns I work across London in a job I love and I may have to quit that’s not a minor concen and I’m not the only one who is throwing a so called “hissy fit” as you so condescendingly put it, plenty of people are concerned from Medway to Cambridge to Peterborough to Horsham and are worried about losing their jobs if they’ve not lost their jobs already because of increased time journeys not every needs Victoria so that’s not an option, and not every one needs St. Pancras either,
It’s not ten minutes it’s actually over fifteen minutes journey times have increased and this can make a difference between making a connection or not, sorry but Medway shouldn’t be a terminal for a stopping service just because 6tph isn’t good enough for inner SE London stations.
The Ramsgate service added a couple of stops because SE didn’t want to undermine the success of HS1 most of the mainline service had extra stops added back then for the same reason, however there is a big difference a couple of extra stops and 9 extra stops to a useful semi fast service, why should we put up and shut up.
Charlton for the jubilee are you mad? Are you saying no one from Medway can now get to Woolwich for the dlr? Or make any other journeys to connect where they want too? I think you are telling porkies. 15 mins extra isn't really a long time you know
You keep on about people losing their jobs but so far none of the news sites have any stories from what I can see not have you even tried to back up your claim that people have quit their jobs because of the changes to the Medway semi fasts but you sum it all up in your last post with your apparent lack of care about other passengers on the Chatham mail line who had to suck it up as it didn't matter for them in your world does it?
you say you work across London and I've got no reason not to believe you on that matter but anyone that works across London would have a 1-6 TC on their rail ticket too but you claim you don't like using zone 1 to get to places so how does that work then? Obviously you could use oyster or contactless but if you did that often enough then for the extra you would have that 1-6 as it's not that much more on your period season
You keep on about people losing their jobs but so far none of the news sites have any stories from what I can see not have you even tried to back up your claim that people have quit their jobs because of the changes to the Medway semi fasts but you sum it all up in your last post with your apparent lack of care about other passengers on the Chatham mail line who had to suck it up as it didn't matter for them in your world does it?
you say you work across London and I've got no reason not to believe you on that matter but anyone that works across London would have a 1-6 TC on their rail ticket too but you claim you don't like using zone 1 to get to places so how does that work then? Obviously you could use oyster or contactless but if you did that often enough then for the extra you would have that 1-6 as it's not that much more on your period season
adrock1976
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London Underground did that with the transfer of the Stanmore Branch from the Metropolitan to the Bakerloo in the 1930s, and look how that ended up in the 1970s when the Bakerloo could not cope with trains to and from the branch converging and diverging at Baker Street, and also sharing the track with Watford DC north of Queens Park as well.
The solution was to construct the Fleet Line and transfer the Stanmore Branch to it, which forms part of the present day Jubilee Line.
Overall, it does not appear to be a good idea having converging and diverging routes so close to terminal stations where the route has been constructed as 2 tracks for a 2.5 minute frequency.
NorthKent1989
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Thameslink can work and it will, pretty soon things will be back to normal, maybe those who commute from way outside London should just get local jobs if your so concerned about your "longer" journeys, perhaps it'll free up space for those who live in inner London, you know because people from.further out take up the seats! And trains are dangerously overcrowded now
NorthKent1989
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Yes because quitting your job is such an easy option.
As for overcrowding on trains are outer suburban commuters to blame for that too then? Sorry we’ll all just give up our seats because we’re selfishly taking up valuable room for those poor Londoners.
bramling
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Ah, this post explains a lot. More space for people from inner London. Sounds like a great idea to run a train effectively empty all the way from Rainham just to give a bit of extra space to people travelling in from Greenwich.
In any case, Greenwich would likely get more capacity if it didn’t have Thameslink, as there might be scope for 12-car trains. Unlike Thameslink which is using Tottenham Corner’s cast-offs.
Reading, that well known London borough will be getting 4tph in the peak from TFL soon.
There is no reason why TfL shouldnt operate Thameslink if you think they should also operate CrossRail - the two are complimentary and serve areas just as far outside of London as each other.
you have claimed you want to quit your job based on losing the semi fast trains you used to get though.
And no one is saying you have to give up your seats especially if youre one of the firat to get on them!
Stop with the hyperbole and people may take you a little bit more seriously
I'm going to have to disagree there:
Reading - Paddington: 36 miles
Liverpool Street - Shenfield: 20 miles
St Pancras - Peterborough: 76 miles
St Pancras - Bedford: 49 miles
St Pancras - Cambridge: 57 miles
Blackfriars - Brighton: 51 miles
Blackfriars - Rainham: 36 miles
A more crossrail-esque Thameslink (in terms of distance) would be roughly Luton - Gatwick
Or, put another way - A more Thameslink-esque Crossrail would include:
Paddington - Swindon 79mi
Paddington - Newbury 50mi
Paddington - Northampton 65mi
Liverpool Street - Clacton 69mi
Liverpool Street - Braintree 44mi
Liverpool Street - Southend Victoria 41mi
NorthKent1989
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Depends on where you need to be, 15 mins can be a game changer, and yes in the early days people did change at Charlton for the Jubilee line, I’ll admit not a stopping much anymore but if there is a delay further up the line and your stuck at Charlton then I myself have gotten off there and got the bus to the Jubilee line, it’s called planning for every eventuality as a commuter you can play down people relying on connections if that makes you feel better and taken seriously.
People elsewhere are losing their jobs though aren’t they! I’m not going to underplay their concerns someone posted a tweet on another thread regarding his son losing his apprenticeship because largely because of the cancellations, I refuse to justify myself to you I honestly could care less if you take me seriously or not I’m not on this forum to be liked or have friends, beneficial if I did chat to people though, not going to deny that but please don’t use playground tactics with me, You put words into my mouth and twist my words. I’m genuinely done now I have enough stresses in life without people I’ve not even met adding to them
NorthKent1989
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Your rather patronising aren’t you?
You and your Medway chums are just hoping this fails I bet, which is a shame because I’m sure people in other parts of the South East of England would disagree and want this to be a success, you talk of quitting your job, do so if your so annoyed by your commute now and leave the rest of us to enjoy all Thameslink has to offer.
NorthKent1989
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I agree I think the Medway crowd have said enough, it’s only a few extra stations hardly the end of the world, with the added stops they can have new places to connect with also, Deptford is opening up and Medway or Gravesend folk may want to check it out for a night out.
I live in the Medway area and of course I don't want it to fail, the local issue is about replacing a semi fast train with a stopping service, it's been explained enough times.
Mutant Lemming
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Khan is too busy slashing jobs to help fund his populist pet projects to be able to actually improve anything in the TfL area let alone anywhere outside of it.
NorthKent1989
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Putting words into my mouth I see
I don’t want it to fail I just think some routes should be re-worked, it should be Kentish Town to Dartford or Gravesend and yes I would prefer to travel on a faster service like many commuters who live further out do, that’s not a crime
Quitting my job is no easy decision I travel to Twickenham two days a work it’s a great job the other two days is at Shadwell and I was hoping to use the faster service to get to Abbey Wood in the coming months, hopefully I can be based there permanently then I won’t have to leave my job.
To go back to the original question. There is little or no value in a TfL takeover of Thameslink. TfL themselves have said they didn't want to take it over and it was excluded from wider plans for devolution back in 2015/16. Some London area politicians have wanted TfL to control inner area services such as the Sutton loop and those that serve stns in North London and parts of South London - these are more the Metro style services than anything long distance. However those demands haven't been followed through. I am not as concerned about the alleged "democratic deficit" from having TfL control some services outside Gtr London. I understand why people get annoyed on this point but I see next to no democratic oversight or influence from MPs over any other NR service. Yes they moan and plead on behalf of constituents but it makes little difference to the Secretary of State or the DfT.
TfL do not possess a magic wand that could unravel the mess engulfing Thameslink services at present. DfT won't kick GTR off the franchise as that would cause more damage, uncertainty and would undoubtedly result in a vastly more expensive bid from someone else. I also doubt DfT have the resources to run a repeat procurement exercise for the biggest franchise in the country with destabilising the rest of the franchise programme.
I am not personally affected by the GTR mess but looking from the sidelines it looks horrendous and I would not try to belittle the agonies people are suffering as a result. From what I've read elsewhere the answer is simply to keep slogging onwards to get drivers route and stock trained so services can actually be restored / introduced properly. That's a difficult message if your life has been turned upside down but I see no benefit in reverting to old timetables / sacking the incumbents / transferring to TfL.
The Mayor of London has written to the Secretary of State today but the tone is rather downbeat with no shrill demands from TfL to grab the services from DfT control. Perhaps he recognises a poisoned chalice when he sees one. Also perhaps he's opting not to upset Mr Grayling too much given the prospect of a little bit more devolution to TfL in the form of the Southern WLL service / GN inners when the GTR franchise is restructured for reletting?
TfL do not possess a magic wand that could unravel the mess engulfing Thameslink services at present. DfT won't kick GTR off the franchise as that would cause more damage, uncertainty and would undoubtedly result in a vastly more expensive bid from someone else. I also doubt DfT have the resources to run a repeat procurement exercise for the biggest franchise in the country with destabilising the rest of the franchise programme.
I am not personally affected by the GTR mess but looking from the sidelines it looks horrendous and I would not try to belittle the agonies people are suffering as a result. From what I've read elsewhere the answer is simply to keep slogging onwards to get drivers route and stock trained so services can actually be restored / introduced properly. That's a difficult message if your life has been turned upside down but I see no benefit in reverting to old timetables / sacking the incumbents / transferring to TfL.
The Mayor of London has written to the Secretary of State today but the tone is rather downbeat with no shrill demands from TfL to grab the services from DfT control. Perhaps he recognises a poisoned chalice when he sees one. Also perhaps he's opting not to upset Mr Grayling too much given the prospect of a little bit more devolution to TfL in the form of the Southern WLL service / GN inners when the GTR franchise is restructured for reletting?
Personally I think that extending Crossrail to Reading was a mistake. It should stay as a simple metro service.
The long term issue with TL is that it is trying to be "all things to all men".
ChiefPlanner
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Crossrail (MK1) was Reading AND Aylesbury .....(Shenfield on the Essex side) , agreed that Abbey Wood - which is really a terminating point for mega bucks earner Canada Wharf was an excellent add on.
Reading was always seen as the stronger element of the Western approaches.
Goimg to Reading does make it a simple metro service - otherwise you'd have had EMUs overlaid shuttling between Slough and Reading/Didcot/Oxford purely to maintain a service to Twyford and the bit of Relief Lines between Slough and Maidenhead would've become a pathing dog's breakfast (with heavy freight thrown in the mix too)
Sadiq Khan has commented
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...ondons-international-reputation-a3853501.html
Mutant Lemming
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er.... and ? - what else do you expect from a career politician following the populist vote. Soundbites are all well and fine but what the fk is he going to do about it ?
What can he do about it?
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